Weights of my 1975 Franklin Statesman, ATM, GTM, towball weight

Submitted: Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 09:36
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G'day all, can anyone tell me (or have one the same) the ATM, GTM & tow ball weight of my 1975 Franklin Statesman. I had it weighed for registration at 950kg, has had new heavy duty springs fitted as well as new rims & lt truck tyres, thank you

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Reply By: disco driver - Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 10:36

Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 10:36
If you need it for registration/licencing just add 400kg to your tare.

Otherwise this may help
At that age all that information was rarely needed or recorded.
As a general rule most caravans allow around 400kg for clothes, food and all the other miscellaneous stuff one takes with you when you hit the road. This then gives you an ATM of around 1350kg and by weighing the loaded van while it is attached to the tug (van wheels only on the weighbridge) you will get an approximate GTM.
Take the GTM from the ATM and that will give you the load on the tow ball.

Hope this is helpful.

Disco.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:19

Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:19
Disco, you cannot weigh GTM or ATM. These are defined maximum weight limits. You can't weigh them just like you can't measure the speed limit of a road. If you weigh the weight of a van with just the wheels on the bridge what you are weighing is the group axle weight.
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Follow Up By: disco driver - Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 12:00

Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 12:00
Peter
I' don't disagree with your idea, BUT vans of that vintage did not have or require compliance plates at the time of original registration.

My '82 Viscount doesn't have any compliance data, it hasn't been removed, it just was never required under the rules and reg's of that period. The only data re weights and loads came from the original rego papers that just happened to be in the unlicensed van when I bought it. And they just showed Tare and Aggregate weights, nothing else.
It's now licenced without having to produce/create a compliance plate because of its age.
It was inspected by an authorised inspector who checked just about everything, including a visual inspection of the entire chassis and suspension.

So if you need ATM,GTM and towball weights for registration purposes how do you obtain them on a van of that vintage?

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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 12:08

Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 12:08
Disco, it looks like you were typing the question whilst I was posting the info you were looking for.
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Reply By: Nomadic Navara - Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:56

Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:56
Compliance plates on vans were not introduced until 1989. Before that time manufacturers did not have to declare ATM and GTM weights for their vans. The only weight that was recorded was the tare weight. The general understanding was that single axle vans would carry a load of about 300 kg and dual axle vans 400 kg.

You have your current empty weight which the motor registry will accept for the tare weight for registration purposes. Are they expecting you to give them an ATM and/or GTM before they will register the van?

To work out suitable figures you will also need to know the ball weight of the unladen van. You will also need to establish the maximum permissible loading your axle will accept. This will be the rating of all the axle components, axle beam, springs, wheels and tyres. You can then declare a GTM figure that is not greater than the maximum axle loading. The ATM that you can declare is the GTM plus the loaded ball weight. If you think that the ball weight of the loaded van will be heavier than you can use that loaded ball weight. Otherwise just add the ball weight to the GTM and that will be your ATM for registration. Your load allowance will be the ATM minus the tare weight. Your load includes everything you pack in the van, gas, water and everything you attach to the van after you obtain the tare weight.

Hopefully you will have at least the 400 kg maximum loading that Disco suggested. If your axle will not allow for at least a 300kg loading I suggest you will have to further upgrade you axle to allow for a decent load in your van. Don't leave yourself too small a load allowance. It's surprising how much you are likely to carry. I had to upgrade the ATM of our van when we found that we were carrying nearly 500 kg load (this is with a van that is loaded for all seasons, 80 kg of water and long distance travelling, you probably will not get near that weight if you are only going to do short trips.)
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Follow Up By: aussiedingo (River Rina) - Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 19:16

Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 19:16
Thanks everyone for the discussion - I just checked the rego papers & it states "GVM 1800 TARE 950" I tow with either a 60 series 'cruiser or AU Falcon. What does this info tell me? What would be my caravan weight be allowed?
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 20:38

Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 20:38
Hah! Registration authorities don't even know their own terminologies. There is no such thing as GVM for a light trailer (which your van is). The relevant terms for a light trailer are GTM and ATM. GTM is the weight on the wheels. ATM is the weight on the wheels PLUS the weight on the tow ball. (Pedants, please lets not get into an argument about mass and weight)

Now if you were to take a punt on the nearest equivalent to GVM for a trailer, it would be ATM. I think that's what the rego authority is trying to specify, but you may want to clarify with them.

Assuming that's what they meant, then you need to subtract the ball weight to get the GTM, which is the max allowable weight on the wheels.

Assuming a normal ball weight range of 8% to 12% of GTM, lets work on 10%, the mid point. We can work backwards from an ATM (or in your case, GVM) of 1800 to give a GTM of 1636 and a towball weight of 164. Add those two you get 1800.

So if you load the van fully, clothes, bedding, food, beer, water and weigh it, the weight on the wheels is max 1636kg.

The max towball weigh is 164 kg.

And that is all assuming that when they say GVM 1800 they really mean ATM.

Hope this helps

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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 20:47

Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 20:47
"What would be my caravan weight be allowed?"

The answer to that is in your vehicle documentation. Somewhere it will specify the max weight allowed to be towed. It will also specify the max weight on the towball.

If you wish to tow your van the max allowable trailer weight must be 1800kg or more and the max towball weight must be greater than 164kg.
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Follow Up By: disco driver - Wednesday, Apr 22, 2015 at 00:22

Wednesday, Apr 22, 2015 at 00:22
Frank,
Back in the 70s and early80s there were only 2 weights specified on a caravan Tare and Aggregate (GVM).
Tare was/is the weight of the empty van and Aggregate was the weight of the van fully loaded ready for the road, not connected to the tug.
Nothing else mattered in those days

FYI the terms Aggregate and GVM meant exactly the same thing back in that period as the caravan was treated as an independent item

There were no compliance plates to give any of the other stuff that is now on a caravan. No towbar weights, no GTM or ATM

The Towball load in specified by the maker of the bar and also by the maker of the tug The lower of these figures is the one that limits what you can tow

Some states will still license an older caravan just using those figures,Tare and Aggregate or GVM (which essentially are the one and same).
At least WA and SA do.

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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Wednesday, Apr 22, 2015 at 09:32

Wednesday, Apr 22, 2015 at 09:32
"Hah! Registration authorities don't even know their own terminologies. "

Disco,

My disdain for bureaucracy remains. My van was first registered in 2006, in NSW. Presumably all this ATM, GTM stuff was in force then. The compliance plate says Tare 1399, GTM 1999, ATM 2200.

The rego certificate says Tare 1399 and GVM 1999.

So now I have a problem. The stated GVM on my certificate matches the GCM on the plate. The certificate does not state an ATM. So what is the certificate referring to with it's GVM figure?

When I load my van to ATM 2200, am I legal with a compliance plate that says I am and a rego record that suggests, because of misused terminology, that I may not be?

Also, most light trailer regulations are weight-based on GTM. It's the most important figure, yet not shown on the certificate - unless you accept GVM as being equivalent to GTM.

What a stuff-up!

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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Wednesday, Apr 22, 2015 at 11:34

Wednesday, Apr 22, 2015 at 11:34
Oh for an editor function..

"The stated GVM on my certificate matches the GCM on the plate."

should read

" The stated GVM on my certificate matches the GTM on the plate."

Also, I concur Disco's assertion that the lower of the weights specified in the vehicle manual and on the towbar will be the max allowable figure in each case.
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Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Monday, Apr 27, 2015 at 19:33

Monday, Apr 27, 2015 at 19:33
Quote "Hah! Registration authorities don't even know their own terminologies."

The motor registry databases do not have a separate field for the ATM of caravans so they simply record it in the GVM field. Most people recognise that, it has little to do with not knowing their terminologies. Go to this link and download ADR Definitions compilation 16 Jan 2014. You will note that the two definitions are vary similar so there is no need for a separate field for just trailers ATM.

Quote "The rego certificate says Tare 1399 and GVM 1999.

So now I have a problem. The stated GVM on my certificate matches the GCM on the plate. The certificate does not state an ATM. So what is the certificate referring to with it's GVM figure?"

To me, that clearly indicates that the agent who registered the van stuffed it up, not the motor registry. Your van is registered to have a maximum weight of 1999 kg and not 2200 kg. The 1999 kg figure will be what will be considered if you are put over a weigh bridge as that is what you are registered for. I think it's best you get the stuff up unstuffed pronto.

Quote "Also, most light trailer regulations are weight-based on GTM. It's the most important figure, yet not shown on the certificate - unless you accept GVM as being equivalent to GTM."

About the only regulations I can recall that refer to GTM are those relating to brakes (fitting of breakaway controllers and the maximum weight for over-ride brakes.) Everything else refers to ATM. The only figure required on the compliance plate is the ATM. It is the most important figure you need to work out your loading and what you can tow. I think most of the "What a stuff-up!" is ion your mind. Most of us can understand the regs.
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Reply By: TomH - Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 15:04

Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 15:04
With the age etc of the pictured van I would think that 300kg would be the acceptable payload, as it is for modern single axle vans.
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Reply By: Racey - Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 15:18

Tuesday, Apr 21, 2015 at 15:18
Hi, All of this depends on the rating of the "heavy Duty" springs and don't forget the axle.

Cheers
Jon
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