climbing the rock

Submitted: Friday, Apr 09, 2004 at 22:03
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the last time l visited and climed Ayres Rock was in '93. Am l going to be able to do it in 3 or 4 months ? Are there issues now about doing this ?

Thanks for your input ,

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Reply By: Slammin - Friday, Apr 09, 2004 at 23:26

Friday, Apr 09, 2004 at 23:26
I climbed it back in '91. I remembr there were a few signs about the traditional owners "prefer that you do not climb" but from what I remember the sign either alluded to or was followed by another about health dangers so the inference was that you climb at your own risk and the trad. own.'s prefer that you don't die on their rock & endanger the lives of rescuers, so don't risk it.

Now it is very clearly spelt out in lots of locations that the trad. own.'s don't like a bunch of foreigners to their land, coming and climbing their version of a church, cathedral, mosque, temple whatever - you get the idea. I wouldn't trample up St Marys, The Vatican etc. so I understood clearly this time around. They wouldn't come to your place of religion and do so either so it seems pretty fair.

They still leave it up to you but i chose not to do it again. A lot of people did likewise and walked around the base, which is a bloody good walk which I've done twice and am still in awe of. Amazing place and no wonder Uluru is in the heart of Australia. For those of you who haven't been you can't get an idea so I'll leave it here.

FWIW there have been lots of rumblings about stopping any climbers, which always gets the Central Aust Tourist Assoc up in arms because foreign tourist agencies always promote the trip as -- CLIMB ULURU!! The PINNACLE of your stay blah blah blah -- and bus loads of Asian Tourists turn up with the video in one hand and the camera around the neck to do so. Eventually it probably will be stopped. Also if the temp is above 30 something or rather you're not allowed to climb either.

Oh and the gate fee went up @25% the other day too.

Enjoy your stay.
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Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 05:57

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 05:57
Agreed Slammin.........I climbed Uluru in 1979 om New Years Day after a BIG party the night before. Stupidly my mate and i did not carry any water with us. Luckily for us there were some rock pools to get a drink from. On our way down we came across some youngsters in their teens sitting with the feet in the clear rockpools stirring the water up. My voice must have carried to the Petermann Ranges as I yelled "What the you think you are doing you B.....y cretins. This is water for living not to put your feet in...." and a few more expletives. But I should taken water with me. Luckily I was a seasoned tropical dweller in those days and was accustomed to extreme temperatures.

I now see that there is no need to climb things. We end up being like ants wanting to forage everywhere. Uluru from a distance is just as impressive as from close up. Have also walked around the base(when I was younger) which holds magical pre-history dreaming feelings for me. Have flown around it in a chopper but that wasn't fun and I hope they have desisted in that practise as it is a noise infringement on the environment.

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Follow Up By: Eric from Cape York Connections - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 07:30

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 07:30
Willem whats they diference in climbing it in 1979 on new years day to climbing it in 2004.

All the best
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Follow Up By: Eric from Cape York Connections - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 07:34

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 07:34
Slammin in 1991 it was ok for you then but not in 2004 I cant work it out.

All the best
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Follow Up By: Diesel 1 - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 08:26

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 08:26
G'day Eric,
I think Slammin spelt it out really well - it's a simple matter of showing some respect for the traditional owners wishes.

Diesel 1
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Follow Up By: Eric from Cape York Connections - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 14:28

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 14:28
So diesel 15 years ago is different to now. The above two have climbed it all those years ago so no one should climb it now is that what there saying. Because attitudes have changed. If they close it to the public they can always say been there done that.

All the best
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Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 19:51

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 19:51
Hello Eric,

Life is a learning curve as you well know. Education is another. When I was younger I was less inclined to other peoples feelings and followed the trend of the day, I was more agressive about things. These days I am more subdued mainly as I am of an older age and can't see the point of arguing the issues over perceptions. We can go on all night about this and maybe start another war but there is no point to it.

What is different in 2004?
1. I have more empathy with an older and different culture
2. I can't climb it because of health problems
3. I have been there before and there is no need
4. I don't think that I am egotistical about these things any longer.

If they close the rock to climbers then so be it!

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Reply By: Eric from Cape York Connections - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 07:13

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 07:13
Mitch we climed it about 3 years ago and it was a good feeling get there early in the morning because they close it when the temperature gets to high or gets to windy.

all the best

AnswerID: 53829

Reply By: Of Mice & Men - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 11:37

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 11:37

Isn't it funny that the people giving you the advice, suggesting that you shouldn't climb it, are people that have climbed it in the past. What has changed so much between then & now that allowed the practise then, but shuns the practise now.
I too, would one day like to climb the rock & I hope that when I do my big trip I am still able to.

Just my thoughts.
Regards, OM&M
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Follow Up By: Slammin - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 14:28

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 14:28
Of mice etc. & Eric what you makes you think I or from what I can read anyone else said don't climb it?

It's up to you. To each his own I think is how Shakespeare put it.

My point is quite simple really when I 1st visited there was no clear explanation on the trad. own.'s feelings on the matter but there is now.

PS it's now called Uluru if you wish to persist in calling it Ayers Rock, again that's your choice.
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Reply By: Member - Nick (TAS) - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 12:03

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 12:03
Gday Mitch,was there last year and climbed Ayres Rock for the second time(about 1984 first time).Whole family climbed this time(kids 4 and 6),made sure had a tight grip on them coming down but they loved it,couldnt wait to get back to school to tell their friends about it.After paying $35 to go into Ayres Rock we were climbing for sure,also heading up there again next year with a few mates and we all plan to climb it.
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Follow Up By: Wizzy - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 15:33

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 15:33
I gather the entrance fee has now soared by about 50 percent to $25 an adult!!! Now is that a rip-off or not?! When were you last charged twenty-five bucks to visit a cathedral, temple or church??

Come on, let's face it. Someone is making a tidy sum out of what is, after all, a NATURAL PHENOMENON. As such it should be available to all for a modest fee just to cover road maintenance and the like. After all, we still have to dig deep into our pockets for the privilege of merely staying overnight in Uluru.


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Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 19:56

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 19:56
Well Wizzy....I suppose it is OK for you to make a tidy profit in your line of work but not for anyone else.

There is an American saying "You take your chances and you pay your dime" It is up to you..........
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Reply By: ianmc - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 22:11

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 22:11
Well Willem, maybe we should put a two way toll on the rock area.
IE: Any indigenous people coming from their area into one developed by OUR dollars should contribute accordingly! Sure they have had the short straw at times
and deserve much help but the imposts to visit their areas are a bit much at times.
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Follow Up By: Willem - Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 17:56

Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 17:56

Please keep your rascism and bigotry off this forum. This country is complex enough with all the different cultures living in it.

I am not sure what your your aim is by posting what you just have but it is unhelpful and not necessary. If you don't like the charges then don't go.

It is just a bloody rock after all.
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Follow Up By: Ralph2 - Thursday, Apr 15, 2004 at 23:44

Thursday, Apr 15, 2004 at 23:44
HI IANMC, That would be fair wouldnt it, I dont think that your post is Racist, it's strange how if you have an opinion you get called names by the people that say you should respect the views of the Indigenious people. got me F*&%^#.
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Reply By: mitch - Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 23:00

Saturday, Apr 10, 2004 at 23:00
Thanks everyone for your input.

The last time l climed Ayres Rock was in 93 , that was my third time.

l now have kids and wish to take them up .

lts a very big rock put there by natural forces maybe hundreds of tousands of years ago .

People didnt mind me climbing it then if l gave them my money and l can see that they will want more of it now.

lm going up , if you dont want to , thats your desision.

Regards Mitch
AnswerID: 53857

Reply By: Member - Tom (NT) - Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 10:49

Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 10:49
Hello Everyone,
I live and work at Yulara, it is a common misconception that it is a spiritual reason that the traditional owners the mutijulu people encouraging people not to climb. After getting to know some of them and finding the real reason it makes some sense. In their traditional thinking there is no reason to climb it ie no water or food up there and the danger of the climb is significant. The reason the discourage it is they don't see the point in taking the risk and they feel responsible for you if you come to grief ie someone hurting themself in your back yard. The guys I know say this is the only reason. I belive this because I have been out to the community after someone has come to grief and they felling is very subdued. That said I have climbed a couple of times and understand their concerns as if is fairly full on. I warn you though don't get to dissapointed if you come out and the climb is closed. This happens regularly if rain forcast, to windy or over 36 deg. If you wish to climb your best bet is to get out there early. This time of year it is open a lot more but over summer it is closed more often than not and make sure to take LOTS OF WATER you will need it. It is a great experience though and worth the trip. The Olgas are another must see which I think are almost better, it amazes me the amount of people that come to the rock but don't make the extra trip out there.
I Hope this Helps
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Follow Up By: GLD - Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 15:52

Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 15:52
Tom, interesting reply. Can you (or anyone else) shed any light on the current situation that photographers who intend to get paid for their images or who intend to publish them (for payment or not), or artists, must apply in writing for a permit (at an expense) and must not photograph the rock from certain angles ie: the sunset viewing spot with thousands of other tourists, and must have the committee (or whatever body it is) verify each photograph is within the requirements?

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Follow Up By: Willem - Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 18:01

Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 18:01

For professional phoptographers wishing to take pics of Uluru that has been the way for about 20 years now...nothing new.
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Follow Up By: GLD - Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 18:29

Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 18:29

I have information to the effect that over the last couple of years that there have actually been a lot changes regarding this, and I was wondering if someone who has up-to-date knowledge of this (perhaps like Tom who lives and works there) could respond.

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Follow Up By: Slammin - Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 23:48

Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 23:48
Tom, you're right in that "there is no reason to climb it ie. no water or food up there and the danger of the climb is significant" and that goes for any peak etc. from Anangu perspective. And yes Anangu do feel responsible for deaths at Uluru. But you are being disingeniuos to suggest that that is the only reason.

You seem to have no empathy or understanding of Anangu people or their culture at all. I wonder how well you think you really know "the guys" and also what their position is within the community.

Surely you must realise that you are a visitor into Mutitjulu from the dominant culture which provides the greatest source of income into this area and as such what is said to you by the "guys" is done so to placate you as you are a representative of the tourist group, and as such your group wants to keep the climb open for as long as possible because when it's not numbers drop.

This placating is done because it is very rude to tell someone "no" or that you are wrong in the Anangu culture. The correct way to breach difficulties in understanding between 2 groups is to ; state what you want "we don't want you climbing Uluru" ; if that doesn't work lead by example "we don't climb Uluru" ; or provide another alternate reason for your wishes " It's dangerous" : lastly Anangu wait.

Also it is against Anangu law to discuss or explain sacred sites or ceremonies with uninitiated people without authorisation. Any versions or explanations of sacred sites are dumbed down for the dominant culture. So do you really expect "the guys" to sit down and openly discuss exactly why they don't want you up there? Surely you are aware, that in the public version of Uluru sacred sites, parts of the rock are transformed ancestors. Do you think Anangu want you walking on their ancestors? Or on their fertility sites etc etc

Climbing over or on sacred sites is definitely the main reason that they wish you do not climb on Uluru or any other sacred sites. You are desecrating the sites around the rock by doing so. I have family who's dreaming and sacred sites are at Uluru and also whose dreamings stretch for thousands of miles around this area and they definitely do not want you climbing Uluru because it is a sacred site.

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Follow Up By: Slammin - Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 23:58

Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 23:58
PS I forgot to add Anangu do climb Uluru but it's only the relevent elders and only for ceremony.
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Follow Up By: sean - Monday, Apr 12, 2004 at 07:20

Monday, Apr 12, 2004 at 07:20

What a load of dribble. It seems you have not read any of the controversy on the management of the two parks by Parks Australia.

If they did not want people to climb, then it would be closed. The WHOLE problem is the mismanagement of Uluru (and Kakadu) by Parks Australia.

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Reply By: Phillis - Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 14:51

Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 14:51
I feel ashamed at been an Indigenous person over Uluru/Ayres Rock
The brothers and sisters have lost the way for money and greed
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Follow Up By: Willem - Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 18:02

Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 18:02
You're a bit of a worry, Phillis.
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Follow Up By: Slammin - Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 23:59

Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 23:59
Yep you should be ashamed all right. And no you're not family.
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Reply By: ianmc - Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 20:26

Sunday, Apr 11, 2004 at 20:26
Willem, my previous post was not intended to come over as racist, just factual.
I have enjoyed the hospitality of indigenous people on a few occasions & generally found them gentle, honest & hospitable & not as motivated by greed as some whites. I apologise to any who took it differently.
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Reply By: Ralph2 - Monday, Apr 12, 2004 at 18:12

Monday, Apr 12, 2004 at 18:12
Slammin what a load of dribble, one min it's hair walaby dreaming is given as the reason not to climb the rock then some other FAIRY STORY, The people from Docker River, about 80 mile away climb the Rock and don't seem to have a problem with it. Like Willem said you pay your money and take your chance,We pay a lot of tax in various forms and I also think that the charges to see these places should be kept to a small maintenance fee. Like others have said you don't get charged to visit Churches etc I bet if these places werent tourist atractions all of a sudden the significance of them would fall away.
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Follow Up By: Baz (NSW) - Monday, Apr 12, 2004 at 20:19

Monday, Apr 12, 2004 at 20:19
Three words, road tax, tollway, oh and collection box, Westgate bridge, Sydney Harbour bridge and tunnel, " small maintainence fee " WHAT THE, If you want to climb it go ahead, if you don't then don't. usualy people respect other peoples wishes no matter what the the reasons are. IMHO !!

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Follow Up By: Slammin - Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 at 22:07

Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 at 22:07
Happy Easter Ralph or sorry is that another FAIRY STORY to you as well?

As for your post ,what nonsense, there is o correlation to sacred sites and tourist attractions, ther are thousands of sites in this area that are as culturally signifcant and guess what you wouldn't even know it if you literally tripped over it.

Geeze Ralph you even pick on Parks Australia the biggest piggy in the middle in Australia - but you don't seem to have any better suggestions.

As for entrance fees to holy places I can think of 2 for a start.

As well as a heap of other cathedrals across europe as well as temples thru Thailand and thats just in my limited travels.

As I have said b4 if you want to climb the ruddy thing go for it, you do have permision but don't post rubbish and in my opinion make up flagrant lies about Uluru not being a sacred site to Anangu. It may not be a sacred site to you but that's your right, but to denigrate a peoples belief system because you disagree or choose not to understand that is disgraceful.

To each his own is that too much to ask?
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Follow Up By: Slammin - Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 at 22:14

Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 at 22:14
Sorry Ralph my comment about Parks Aus was meant to be for Sean.
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Reply By: sean - Monday, Apr 12, 2004 at 20:53

Monday, Apr 12, 2004 at 20:53

People dont seem to mind paying to climb the rock. They volunteer the money for the experience. No one forcess them to pay.

It is when they pay to climb, get in, wait for it to be opened for the day, and then find out they cant climb because its closed for the whole day, that they get upset.

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Follow Up By: Ralph2 - Thursday, Apr 15, 2004 at 23:25

Thursday, Apr 15, 2004 at 23:25
Hi, most of this is in reply to Slammin I didn't know any other way to contact him,(sorry Baz) When I talk about Fairy Tales Iam refering to the Dream time stories about Rainbow Serpents etc, you honestly don't expect anyone to believe that a gaint snake drank lake Eyre dry then went and made the Flinder's Ranges do ya, If you do your living in the stone age,they are entertaining stories but miles from the true facts about the way this land was formed. People are entitled to believe what ever they like so long as it don't efect other people, but 2% of the population call natural phenomenons a sacred site and charge people to have a look or lock it up, and the rest of the poulation is expected to respect these views,(get real)then when questioned about them they come up with Fairy Tales or secret Womens bussiness( which was proved to be Fragrant Lies),If any one states the facts(not Fairy Tales)or has an opinion regarding these matters they are called Racist or Bigoted. when really it could be said that they(the people that believe in the Fairy Tales)are the Bigots,(definition of a Bigot) a person blindly and obstinately devoted to a particular set of ideas. and Racist, if your not Aboriginal you can't go here or see this etc, which is discriminatory treatment based on race.And All this goes no where towards helping race relations,The sooner we treat every one in this country as one people (as Australians)no Abstudy and Austudy etc the better IMO.
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Follow Up By: Willem - Friday, Apr 16, 2004 at 00:08

Friday, Apr 16, 2004 at 00:08
When I talk about Fairy Tales Iam refering to the Dream time stories about Rainbow Serpents etc, you honestly don't expect anyone to believe that a gaint snake drank lake Eyre dry then went and made the Flinder's Ranges do ya.......

Ralph2...Then you have to discount the Creation of the Universe, the Garden of Eden and most of the book of Genesis as rubbish, as well.

You have a mind set about these things and it gets you nowhere.

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Follow Up By: Slammin - Friday, Apr 16, 2004 at 00:49

Friday, Apr 16, 2004 at 00:49
Hi Ralph again, I know what you meant by fairy tales and the problem is you feel that you have a god given right that a people have to explain and justify their religion to you. I state in the post above the little bit that you do know about Aboriganel culture is dumbed down for public consumption but then I guess that Moses did part the red sea etc.
I have been lucky enough to have the correct meaning of some of these allegories explained to me which does put me in an unfair position over you in that I have tried to understand and come to terms with different cultures in this world. Fairy tales huh, so what do you beleive in?

As usual in this argument you fail to accept or realise that this is Aboriganel land that they own and choose to do with it what they see fit, and they haven't locked you or anyone else out, they are merely asking that you respect their wishes. The real issue for you here is not their beleif system but that you don't understand or qualify for Abstudy what a joke.

As for locking people out of their area based on race what rubbish, it's a simple process you apply for a permit and according to your intentions are accepted or rejected which is a hell of a lot more polite than many other private properties in this country, especially after all the legal wrangling over insurance. And you have the hide to call them racist for locking you out. RAOFLOL

I think you'll also find that the aboriganal population in this country make up 4million people I don't think that 2% is anywhere near accurate.

As for the Hindmarsh Affair, you are willing to judge a whole nation of peoples beleifs because of one small group trying to protect their land from development. Heaven forbid if we were all judged by some of the people in this world!

I fail to see why Jewish or Catholic peope are bigots because they choose to have Faith. Whats with you?

And as soon as Aboriganels have the same employment options and choice of giving birth to infants with a lower mortality rate and can live for longer than 50 years of age, yes, we can cancel the small benefits that are just another name for what everyone else gets Newstart & Austudy then yep the sooner that happens lets cancel Abstudy.

And no we're not all One Australian we are many different Australians who try to live happily together without unfair judgment over each other even if we don't understand each other.

At this stage I think that I have failed to explain myself well enough to you so we will just have to say that we agree to disagree.

If you want to climb the rock that is your choice.

Oh by the way you didn't mention that you were wrong about churches etc. charging for admission. I guess that shows how big a bloke you really are.
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Follow Up By: Ralph2 - Friday, Apr 16, 2004 at 21:41

Friday, Apr 16, 2004 at 21:41
HI Willem , unless your talking about the big bang theory (universe) then yes I do think its bull.
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Follow Up By: Ralph2 - Friday, Apr 16, 2004 at 22:46

Friday, Apr 16, 2004 at 22:46
HI Slammin, I don't believe in the Virgin Mary giving birth, parting the Red sea or Budda,religion has and still is causing most of the friction in this world.I don't think of Australia being Aboriginal Land, they lost it over 200yrs ago it's time to move on. I don't nor do I wish to quaifily for Abstudy,(not Aboriginal) what's the joke?. I don't see why Aboriginal people can't live where they choose, they get help from Gov dept like other people do(unemployment, disability, public housing, free school buses etc) in fact per head of population they get more money spent on them. (ASTIC report nov 03). And if they get educated and get the qualifications like every body else has to, there are work opitunities, in fact posistions are reserved for them in a lot of Gov Depts.The Hindmarsh Island secret womens bussiness for all we know could be the tip of the ice burge, how many other devlopments have been stopped or held up .You stated that Aboriginal people won't tell the truth about sacred sites to uninitiated people,(non Aboriginal) and Hindmarsh Island was privately owned.Noel Pearson stated for 2% of the population Aboriginal people made up 20% of the jail poulation in this country.I don't know of any Churches in this country that charge to go in. The problem with a lot of Aboriginal people that I have talked to (not many) seem to be living in the past, but want the moden life style, move on get over it. Any way like you said, we can agree to disagree. nice to have communicated with you.
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Reply By: Davoe - Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 at 12:49

Tuesday, Apr 13, 2004 at 12:49
Probably not adding anything new but I climbed the rock this time last year. They do close it for high wind heat rain and on certain occasins for cultural reasons (deaths of elders etc) so give yourself enough time to wait out such eventualitys as a hit and run trip could find you groundridden As I understand they themselves didnt climb the rock much except men when they travelled to the area would climb it first up. I dont think they will close the climb anytime soon because that would be cutting off the hand that feeds them. My biggest dissapointment was that photography around the base is banned I cannot for the life of me see the justification for this even if they are sacred sites because private photography does nothing to disrespect an area and I also consider such places to be of international significance wich is overruled by one intrest party who have been around for less than the blink of an eylid compared to the rocks overall history. As for entrance costs I payed 15$ for but even with an increase both ayres rock and kakadu are an absolute bargain when compared to the $9 per day charged for WA parks. Ps I also did the base walk (more scenic than it sounds) and the valley of the winds walk plus some others but none of it compared to the climb which I personally found neccessary and rewarding
AnswerID: 54012

Reply By: ianmc - Friday, Apr 16, 2004 at 12:09

Friday, Apr 16, 2004 at 12:09
I too was most sceptical about the dreamtime stories so one day I met an Aboriginal Christian Pastor and questioned him on this and how it conflicted with his races beliefs & biblical teachings.
His reply was most interesting & along the lines of :
"The very early pastors introduced or adopted some of these stories into their
teachings so they would not conflict with pagan type belief systems and to
maintain the interest of the Aboriginals"
Somewhat like the adoption by the early church of pagan festivals by another name
and other false doctrines which are nowhere to be found in God's Word.
I think that was roughly the gist of his reply and Phillis might like to comment on it
without prejudice.
Without healthy discussion the blinkers tend to remain closed.
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Reply By: KTM 520 - Friday, Apr 16, 2004 at 20:26

Friday, Apr 16, 2004 at 20:26
think you'll also find that the aboriganal population in this country make up 4million people I don't think that 2% is anywhere near accurate. ............

whoever wrote this trash- take a look at yourself.

These bloody people represent 2% of the population and 98% of the population have to support it with a seperate "organistaion" such as ATSIC.......... is that NOT discrimination, "treating somenone differently?" .- not when you are black , but if you are white well... LOOK OUT!!!!

No woneder Johnny Wonder got rid of this ATSIC crap, and all Geoff Clarke can be held accountabble for is th time he spent "defending himself" ......... on full pay (at $200,000-00 PER YEAR" .......... good on ye Geoffrey really got the ineterest of the Aboriginals at heart............. love that natural tan of yours Bro'.

What a load of crap............ climb the rock if you want or have a beer at the bottom and watch, plenty of Aboriginals did , i joined em.

Get a life


Cheers (from Shayne Howard .... "here and now")
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