Cape York entry fees.

Wouldn't surprise me as after being up there a week ago I came back very confused ? Confused enough to check my passport as I was pretty sure it said Australian as nationality in it and sure enough on checking it did. But after a few weeks up there I reckon I know how an immigrant felt in a new country and the only time I felt like an equal was in the dead of night ????
Regards the Jardine Ferry .................. had been to Bamaga, Siesha, Somerset and the tip several times before ................. this time at the ferry I turned around and headed back to camp at Captain billys landing ................... but alas not to be so as you needed a camping permit and with no phone reception one couldn't book it from the entry road in. Penalty on the spot fine was 21 units ............. checked when I got home a unit is $117 in value. The great outback is fast becoming the not so great outback.
Very sad but true.

AGIN4x4 at Captain Billy's are you referring to a Parks Camping permit as separate to the fee required north of the Jardine?
If it is, then you strike that at any Qld National Park.

Mark

Has always been the most expensive ferry ride in Australia ,time vs distance but it did include the return trip AND the camping permit , now a certain group want 'extra' in the form of $100 per vehicle and $20 per person on top of the ferry / permit fees already in place to 'visit' THEIR land , I was always under the impression that the Cape was : A : part of Australia ….. seems I and millions of others are wrong and the Cape is a separate 'Country'….

Not at all AU wide NPs. Mainly only QLD.Well as far as I know it is.

Luckily we have already been to the Cape and an excellent trip it was with all the iconic tracks ticked off. And no need to stick to a set itinerary. Just winging it and no need to take any mobile phone or ipod etc etc.Well we don't use them anyway but . . . . .

And now we now avoid QLD because: "you needed a camping permit and with no phone reception one couldn't book it from the entry road in". Next you won't be allowed away from home without taking the NBN with you.

Phil

Mark yes I am fully aware of that ................... first point is simply why is a permit required in any case and secondly it's a bit late when your already there and cannot book a site as most would know unless you have a sat phone you can't call to book. When I travel to know exactly where I may be on a given night in a 4 week trip makes it a little hard to pre book ? Thirdly why list on the spot fine as 21 units ? ( One penalty unit in Queensland is $113.85)
Most probably like myself would not know what a unit was in monetary value.
If they wish for permits to be required no problem but at least make them more accessible to obtain that is practical is all I'd expect?
In Tassie they have forms at start of parks you can fill out and submit ............................ at the point of entry.

All NPs are gradually going the same way unfortunately. It does make choices rather difficult. We wanted to camp in a certain park near Charters Towers and I tried in vain to pre book as we passed through preceeding towns. I was forced to phine the Dept and after a couple of transfers got onto the correct person who set my account up and told me everything I already knew then took my $11.90 for the camp for that very night. We arrived a couple of hrs later to a dust bowl which no soul had inhabited for a while, except cats, wild dogs and cows. Very evident by the foot prints and calling cards on the ground. At least it was quiet and peaceful but there wasnt even a sign on the highway to show us the way! White Mountain NP.

AGNI4x4
I too suffered from the Qld Nat parks web booking system when I was in CY this year and agree with all your shortfalls of the system. You forgot about another issue of someone being on your booked site, there's no one to "kick them off" as well
But that happens anywhere in Qld, not just Cape York.
Your (and my beef) over their camping fee system should be another post (though it has been done numerous times previously).

The ferry system is also unfair in that it doesn't differentiate between the permit and the ferry fee, so as in my case you had to go back over the Jardine the next day to retrieve something you left behind, you have to pay the same "Tip fee" twice.

Both the Qld Parks booking system and a higher "Tip Fee" will kill the Goose that lays their golden eggs, people will simply not go there and their net income will be less.

If a person doesn't know where they are going to be on any given day, how do you book into a nat park.....or how do you pay if you just rock up.....and if you just rock up, why not have an envelope system like they've had for eternity ?

And if you just rock up, how could you get fined if there are no rangers around....and if there are....why can't they do their job and take your money ?

The system is designed to be hard, so it cuts down on numbers wanting to use the nat parks....which suits them, but maybe not ones run ( or owned ) by indigenous people, because they lose their cut !

Nat parks people aren't dumb, they know the system stinks, but they just sit behind their desks and smirk at the frustrated people !!

Gronk, or the other alternative...

do the right thing - book on the phone - pay money - turn up at the anointed time and find the campsite full with opportunists and no bloody ranger present..

pays yer money and book a site weeks in advance to find out that they either:

1. overbook and/or
2. don't verify bookings and don't patrol

The net effect arriving at around 5pm after a long and fairly exhausting drive to find there's no campsites left for vehicles.... and they don't give a flying toss.

Welcome to Lawn Hill.

Went to Lawn Hill 22 yrs ago...magical place and not big crowds then..

If that happened to me, and I did find somewhere to stay, the next day someone would be getting an earfull. I would have setup in the rangers carpark !!

Looks like it pays to just rock up, not pay, and camp where you like !!

Nat parks are just the same as all govt depts.....run by people who don't give a stuff about the very people who pay their wages..

Just to quote you Gronk, "Nat parks are just the same as all govt depts.....run by people who don't give a stuff about the very people who pay their wages."

Most Rangers I have met in my many years of travel are hard working people that do their best to look after places that are left to look like a bleep house after the visitor leaves, you know the ones, there the ones that don't like to pay for the privilege of using a National Park and leave it in a mess once they are gone.

Who picks up their crap, that's right the rangers do.

Mark,

At the turn off to Captain Billy's you were 23 kms from the Rangers Station where you could have paid for camping, without a phone call or a computer.

So if you had gone to the Rangers Station.
1, you could see if the site was booked out before heading down there
2. you could have paid for the site if you decided

All HEMA Cape York or North Queensland maps and the HEMA books have the Ranger stations and phone numbers.

Many people travel long distances and can manage to turn up to a place when they book it. Using Captain Billy as an example, if you check on line prior and its fully booked you can change your plans and stay another day or just do a day visit.

There are just a couple of NP sites that need to be booked, Elliot and Captain Billys, Lakelands and Mungkan Kanju which can be checked and booked at Coen. All the other sites on the OTT from Bramwell to the Jardine are free.

Maybe they should charge for ALL site and put on more Rangers to satisfy the few?

Steve in Kakadu, don't disagree with you, however on the flip side, would you like to justify my experience...... ???

Steve, I said nat parks RUN by numb nuts....not the poorly paid rangers, who do a good job normally ( I know a couple as well )

TonyV, Scott was saying he booked and when he arrived , HIS site was taken..
Now it doesn't matter which park he was referring to, if that's what happened ( and apparently it happens a lot ) then the system needs changing. Or at least, policed !

Gronk,

I saw/read Scott's response as an example "Gronk, or the other alternative..."

Again if you want people (Rangers) there then you have to pay for it. the $11.50 per site won't cut it.

If the Ranger is not informed then they can't do much about it and the system will get abused.

Or the easy way is to go on facebook or here and complain.

Example:

Elliot Falls has 31 sites.
Captain Billy no number but 6 camps would be the most.
Jardine Nth 6 sites
Jardine Sth 7 sites

Average 6 months FULL occupancy of 2 people per site = $3944.50
revenue would be $102,557.00
Sound like a lot of money, but wages will be $80k plus super, accommodation and vehicle for work.
That money does not pay for one Ranger, let alone any maintenance to the areas, including Fruit Bat Falls.

Chilli Beach is a different park has 25 at Chilli Beach 3 of them are commercial sites, an 13 in 3 different sites Same issue, not enough money to support a Ranger.

Tony, if there isn't any presence of rangers, then why would you pay...just rock up like 1/2 the people already do.

If you pay, and your site is taken, then it was a waste of time prebooking !

If you try and justify the cost of a ranger by the fees collected, then there would be no rangers in any of the parks ! A bit like justifying a policeman by the amount of fines and bookings he makes ! Or the cost of rangers in state forests, where there isn't any fees for camping.

I've never been to cape york, but there appears to be a severe shortage of camp grounds with space for a large amount of people ?

Gronk,

Funnily enough there is plenty of free camping, from Palm Creek through to Nolan's Brook. Every creek has a free camp area by it. More people camp that way on the Cape than in the NP campsites.

It just that the only complaints are about the few NP sites.

People blame the Rangers, not the toe rags that camp without paying or take other camp spots.

Yes I have had my camp site taken at Chilli Beach, after informing the camper that I would go and see the Ranger, I travelled the 20kms to the Ranger and informed him of the situation. When we returned the campers were packing the final bits and leaving. Then again I try not to turn up at any site 5pm.

I am not justifying the Ranger by the cost of the camps, what I am saying is that if people on here, want more rangers then someone has to pay for them, what they currently get does remotely not cover cost for a remote area over half the size of Victoria.

Tony, don't disagree - if that is what it takes to provide the service, then people can choose up front whether it is worth the price or not - however keeping in mind that our taxes are paying somewhat for the amenity anyway.

However it's not unreasonable to expect that if you book in advance, receive a booking/permit number, and pay for the service to actually have the service provided. In a number of cases, we've had various NPs happily take money and then not live up to their end of the bargain. Doesn't matter if you're a commercial provider, government, semi-govt agency, if you take money for a service, you're obliged to provide a service.

Thats something we both agree on :)

Motherhen, we're not all members there.....

Do I understand that it could be $200 + just to cross the Jardine, drive up to say Barmaga, camp one night and drive back again!!!!! As said in the Castle they "must be dreaming".

What a shame - greed.

Phil

Not many are members of C&M forum Scott, but anyone can read the link. This was the only reference I had seen so posted it as a reply to the OP.

I think the community asking for this would miss out big time if they get their way Phil. It would put a lot of people off.

" but anyone can read the link" - actually .... no.

That is odd Scott - I was not aware of that. It was not a closed forum when I joined. How can they expect anyone to join if they can't have look first *roll eyes*. Before I joined I used to visit that forum, usually when it came up in a search. I only joined when I wanted to answer something.

I copied the salient part of the post anyway but had to put a link to acknowledge the source. I doubt that the person posting that would object to wider distribution. It was posted in February this year.

Currently the Jardine is $99 for a car and $129 for car and trailer.

Jardine ferry cost

Even NPA residents pay $29 each way, that is $58 for a return


When you consider that most visitors, carry all their grog, food and as much fuel they can from down south. The amount of money spent by them in local communities is very little.

Many will say its because of the cost.. Well the locals have to pay those cost all year round.

No food subsidies, all food has to be shipped from Cairns.
No subsidies like some of the NSW ferries get (Wisemans Ferry and Berowra Waters to name a few).

If the locals left ?

It would then be locked up.

Why would it be locked up if the locals left ??

I don't know who actually owns the ferry.....willing to bet the govt and it's just run by the locals ?

Other ferries are owned by the govt, so not subsidised, and probably run at a loss......but cheaper than putting in a bridge.

Your point about food prices is correct, but like all over Australia, prices are affected by distance, and if you don't like it, move !!

Because the land is DOGIT. It does not belong to all Australians or all Aborigines.
The land belongs to the local indigenous people.

The Jardine ferry is not owned by the Government it belongs to NPARC under the DOGIT agreement. If you are interested here is a link.DOGIT or Deed of Grant in Trust info click here. Through out the 1980's many parts of Queensland were handed over to the indigenous owners under this agreement.

The car ferries, as I listed in NSW ARE subsidised there is no fee for using them, I have not listed all the free NSW car ferries.

Scott, I found the article quoted on the forum I linked last night

Plans by indigenous landholders to slug tourists with Cape York permit fee branded highway robbery

Motherhen, not to worry... :-)

Darn, you must be jinxed Scott :O, but I did quote the gist of the article.

I have found that with Courier Mail before. I have been sent links to articles that I cannot read, but the person sending is not a subscriber either but was able to read them once. I can no longer access this one either.

We just returned from a trip around which started with Len's Connie Sue and Sandy Blight tracks. The permits were free but really only give a three day transit period which means one really needs to be sure of when they will arrive at a certain point. However we managed to be only a couple of days out due to rain at Rawlinna. Boy are those tracks rough now! Beautiful country but sadly we wont be doing any more as they are just too hard on vehicle etc.

Which Beadell roads do you have to pay to go on Terry?

Mh,
The Gary Junction required 2 permits.
Any fees collected for crossing the Jardine (or any other community), does the money collected reduce the Government funding to these communities by the same amount?

Bill

Bill, the Gary Junction Road Aboriginal Lands permits (WA and NT) are free of charge.

MH,
Apologies, correct, no charge you only need to give dates on the internet.

Bill

You have to obtain a permit from the Maralinga Tjarutja Lands people to travel a portion of the Anne Beadell at a cost of $25/vehicle and if you intend to camp (which you might) that's $8 per vehicle per night.

Can't remember for sure but I think that a small portion is also covered by the SA Desert Parks annual pass and that's $150.

Not sure about any others the WA & NT passes that I've obtained in the past have always been free.

Cheers

Dunc

Thanks Duncan. I did not know there is a fee for the Maralinga permit, but I have listed the Mamungari Conservation Park with camping fees at these costs Mamungari Conservation Park

These are not Beadell Road fees as such, just permits for the areas travelled on the Anne Beadell.

Most Aboriginal Lands transit permits are free, but the Nyangumarta Highway (formerly known as Kidson Track WAPET Road) now requires a permit costing $55, and of course the Canning Stock Route also has a fee.

But while all good information, we are now off course and off topic for Cape York and the Jardine Ferry.

I find it outrageous that I am being charged to see the country that I was born in. This sort of rubbish is divisional and should be stopped.

322

I also was born here, my next trip away I want to camp in your back yard, I should be allowed to.

Alan

Alan S , there is a very very large difference between camping in a suburban back yard and several hundred thousand square miles of undeveloped [and never will be] rainforest land , the never ending claims of 'traditional' land has to stop in order that Australia is actually ONE country .

Alloy

What is undeveloped defined as?

So the station owners who have title over thousands of square kilometers of undeveloped land are different from traditional landowners who have title over thousands of kilometers of undeveloped land.

Aboriginal owners who place a charge on using their land is judged by 322 as being divisional, and not Australian. Station owners who place a charge on using their land are not judged by the same standard.

If 322 finds it outrageous being charged to see places in the country of his Birth he should not find it outrageous that people who may want to see his own back yard should be allowed to and not have to pay as well.

Alan

Sorry Alan, but I also find it outrageous to require a permit & to be charged to travel on roads that the Australian taxpayer paid to build & maintain! If you want to travel off these roads then that may be a different story, maybe we should allowed to travel & camp within 50 metres of the road.

In general, and not talking about the Cape York question Shaker, in WA the road reserve is usually 30 metres either side from the centre of the road and may well be similar in other states. On public roads through stations and roads such as the Great Central you can stop within this reserve without impinging on the privately managed land.

Shaker

Outrageous, certainly look at all the other roads that have been built at the taxpayers expense and you are now charged a fee to use.

Most National parks now charge to use their facilities, who do you think paid to build them.

Eastern States cities have a number of Toll roads, who do you think built most of them before they were sold off and tolls inposed.

There are countless expamples of where taxpayers in general have build infrastructure and we accept a additional cost to use it.

The biggest example for most of us on day to day basis, is just look at public transport.

Why is it that we all find it acceptable to pay to visit national parks, to pay to camp at station stays, and in some places we even pay to use the toilet. we accept that as the norm.

But when it comes to pay (in real terms) small amounts of money to use facilties on aboriginal land all of a sudden it is "divisional" and objectionable.


Alan

Alan's point is spot on - there land has been deemed by the law to be indigenous lands and as you an I can do what we want on our land (within reason) they to can do what they want. If I wanted to charge people to come onto my property I probably could (but who would pay) but if I had an attraction they might.

It is about time people came to understand that this is their land as determined by Australian law - if you don't like it - tuff.

Garry

Just because it was determined by law doesn't mean it's right.....laws are made to be either broken or changed..

I think the point about paying for the use of a road is a good one....while we do pay a toll for some roads, they were built by a private company......and up to a high standard too.

If a road ( or track in some cases ) goes thru indigenous land, but is a main route thru it to somewhere else, then no fee should be applicable.....but if you want to visit something on the land away from that road, then a fee is reasonable.

So are you saying Alan that station owners should also have the right to charge a fee for traversing their land.
Tax payer funded and maintained is vastly different from toll roads that have been built or upgraded by private enterprise.
We are paying taxes to support remote communities and our money that we spend when in those communities also helps that local economy. I probably should have been a bit more specific with my comment.
Charge a fee. But keep it within the affordability of the people who choose to see their country. A ferry ride that takes 30 seconds shouldn't cost $100.

322

What I am saying is that your view that you should be able to travel the country of your birth free of charge is unreasonable.

There are many examples of similar things were infrastructure is paid for by the general population and then we pay for it use. Why not complain about that as well, at least there would be some consistency.

As far as determining reasonable charges, how would you determine $100 is unreasonable, you don't know what the capital cost is, running costs, wages ,insurance plus the right to make a profit.

Most people wouldn't flinch spending $100 on booze or fuel, yet a ferry ride to the tip of the Cape to complete a trip of a life time for many you deem unreasonable.

Alan

If we are going to talk about a ferry ( Jardine )...that was bought by us ( the government ) but has been either given or allowed to be run by a select group ( did they lease it or was it a gift ) who charge a very high fee ( compared to similar ferries that actually charge a fee ).

Now, if the group running the ferry actually lease it, then charging a fee is OK, but at that price, either the lease is very high or they are ripping the public off.

And if it is leased, does it come up for tender, or is it a closed shop ?

I heard there are approx 40 to 50,000 vehicles going up the cape every year , so this is serious money we are talking about here !!

Exactly as I said Grint, you have no idea about the ferry operating costs to be even able to make a determination that the cost is unreasonable.

Let's draw a parallel, the WA government buys all its bus's and leases them out to private operators to run them. The public after paying through taxes to buy the buses then pays again in fares. Are the fares reflective of the costs, who knows, because of the back ground accounting methods.

Really the amount of money we are talking about is not sheep stations, in real terms.

At a conservative 4 million dollars, I think we are talking sheep stations.

The only other ferry ( that I know of ) on a public road that charges money would be in Tasmania...the Pieman ferry...$25 one way (but you don't have to return the same way ).

This is "the other side of the story" on a Facebook page Apudthama Land Trust

Extract
"APUDTHAMA Traditional Owners have been left confused by an angry rant in which the Member for Leichhardt described tourism plans for the region, supported by the PM, as “extortion”.

The Apudthama Land Trust (ALT) is working closely with the Prime Minsiters’ own department, on plans to charge visitors an access fee, to fund the day-to-day management and promotion of Apudtahama Country, cover the final 200km north of the Dulhunty River in northern Cape York.

Each year more than 20,000 vehicles visit free of charge, looking for adventure on land, including the iconic Telegraph Track and Tip of Cape York, that is largely Aboriginal freehold."

Can't blame them for trying to "extort" some money out of tourists for travelling to the tip of "our" country.

I can see where they are coming from with all this land claim stuff, but I can't see it as a way of going forward in the 21st century.

As an example, if they have been granted 200 K's of cape york, for one, how do they prove they inhabited all that land many yrs ago ? And how does it help them now, with ownership of all that land, to benefit their people ? They haven't the means or inclination to use it all, and any money they can "extort" will not pay for fences, upkeep, flood mitigation, wages, infrastructure .....so now when things need doing, they'll be looking for govt grants etc to fund their needs !

To keep this in perspective, my ancestors have been here since the 1st fleet, so why can't I claim 200 acres around my area that we have inhabited all this time ??

Because you are an import and didn't own it before the first fleet.

If you dont like that - put in a claim and see how far you get.

If you don't like the rules - go back home to where your ancestors came from.

So there always is a smart one eh ?? So, what entitles a land claim.....200....600 or 1,000 yrs ?? and what about the people who were here before the aboriginals ? Where do you draw the line ?

Nobody owned it before the 1st fleet, as there was no concept of ownership, and that idea only came in when white lawyers found a way of making money out of the idea of land claims.

At least I have ancestors !!

Oh dear - You really need to get with the program.

garrycol , you seem not to be able to grasp the frustration created by 'traditional' land claims , all the claim does is create a them and us feeling of animosity , people can argue till their blue in the face but the fact remains that every country / race /continent on earth [ bar antarctica] has at some stage throughout history seen a change of ownership through exploration / invasion , its time a certain peoples accept that Australia is one country and not a place that needs to be divided by racial lines..

EXACTLY.....I think the only way to go forward as a country is to not look back to the past too much.
Sure, there were mistakes made, but to keep giving them land to appease those past mistakes is not the way to a united country.

Alloy

I don't think you grasp that both Garry and myself aren't frustrated and I have no animosity over the issue. While I agree it is divisive it is for different reasons than yours.
You certainly draw a long bow to connect historical events of taking over countries to granting on native title. Without any consideration of rights, laws or even what other countries are doing.
As I have tried to point out there are countless examples of government giving, and us paying in our ordinary lives that we all take as granted and accept it. I think we should at least be consistent in our opin ion and to be otherwise is hypocritical.

So your answer is that we should let them live on land that they have no security over, while us Whiteman continue to walk over,visit take what we want , then we go back to our patches of land that we have fences around and can control what happens on it.

Isn't that slightly divided by racial grounds

Alan

I think to put things in context, a patch of land that a whiteman owns ( typically a small block of land ) is bought with his money.....whereas a land grant is GIVEN and typically can be thousands of acres....and especially as has happened along the east coast, the people receiving the land grant weren't even the original inhabitants ( not always the case )..

What's an equal and just solution.......I don't know, and no one else seems to have an ideal solution to it either.

Gronk

The land a white man owns may not be his, look at the case of state housing, there rights are protected through tenancy's acts and other laws.
Again it is a rule for one and not another
Alan

Unless you have read the land rights act, you are all wasting your time and effort, until you have read it none of you actually understand what you are talking about.

Post up a link then !!

Link (sublinks included in main text)

Steve,
You are right, I haven't read the land rights act, but my view is that I am generally in favor of land rights. According to you I don't understand thing about the subject. I am happy to change my view in that case.

I will say no more on the subject

Traditional land rights ??? Methinks I'll have to put in a claim for the better part of the British Iles seeing my Great - Great - Great - Great + 10 or so more Great Grandfathers on my mothers side half brother was a Viking [ or was that a Visygoth] who was granted land rights over what we now call Scotland , A tenuous claim perhaps , but NO different to claims made over land in Australia ...

Hmmm - I think this applies Click Here

garrycol , you really need to get some of you reasoning / facts in order , better than 90% of who "claim" to be indigenous Australians have so very little actual Australian Aboriginal blood flowing through their veins the argument for "traditional" land rights / hunting rights / cultural rights becomes laughable… One land , One continent , One AUSTRALIA.

My previous followup applies :-)

Alloy just to put things into perspective.

My son is 7th generation Australian born, now I am sitting outside having a beer with my ardjuk ( uncle) black fella from Arnhemland he is over 1000 generations Australian.

I think he has earned his stripes so to speak.