Marree Man

Submitted: Saturday, Aug 20, 2016 at 18:27
ThreadID: 133259 Views:4614 Replies:5 FollowUps:30
This Thread has been Archived
Back Expand Un-Read 1 Moderator

Reply By: Ron N - Saturday, Aug 20, 2016 at 19:06

Saturday, Aug 20, 2016 at 19:06
I personally think Mr Turner might have made a very big mistake by re-instating what was originally an illegal piece of artwork, anyway.

This is not the 1960's, where you could go out in the bush and carve up anything you liked, without reference to anyone.

We live in the 21st century, where the EPA rules, where the Aboriginal Heritage Act rules, where Depts of Parks & Wildlife rules, where Aboriginal Land Councils must be consulted and their approval gained, before any landscape changes are carried out - and where, if you propose any developmental work, artwork, or flora and fauna destruction, you have to submit plans and get approval from the various ruling authorities, and meet their specific guidelines, and follow their specific and often strict instructions.

You have to submit reams of information relating to development plans, how flora and fauna destruction will be managed and minimised, how re-vegetation will be carried out, how increased water runoff will be minimised and controlled, how increased erosion will be controlled, how contamination of water supplies will be avoided, and how increased soil salinisation will be avoided or controlled.

There are dozens of laws and regulations to be conformed with when undertaking any landscape-changing works. Often the Mining Act regulations can also apply to any surface earthmoving operations of any kind - let alone the amount of EPA, and Aboriginal Lands laws, that would apply here.

I speak as a former earthmover and mining contractor, and sizeable business operator (with over 100 employees at one point), who started with bulldozers in the early 1960's - when we could do pretty much what we liked, where we liked - and who went right through to the strict operating conditions of today, where even breaking branches off a few trees, can see you go to jail.

We have at least one farmer in W.A. who has gone to jail for illegal clearing without abiding by the current laws - and several others who have narrowly avoided jail for the same reasons.

My stepdaughter works for Beach Energy at Moomba as a senior HSE manager - and she is responsible for the control and minimisation of any environmental damage by Beach Energy, as well as health and safety issues.

The things she tells me about the onerous EPA regulations and laws that apply to the oil and gas companies, if even the smallest wilful, or even accidental environmental damage is caused - in even the most remote part of central Australia - would make your hair curl.

Just a small leak in an oil pipeline is enough to initiate a major environmental investigation with the accompanying major penalties.

For someone to carry out a major landscape-altering exercise, as Mr Turner has done, with no reference to any authority, with no investigation or logging of Aboriginal Heritage sites, and the importance of any sacred sites found, recorded and cleared with Aboriginal Councils - is an act pretty much ensuring you will almost certainly front a magistrate, charged with multiple counts of violation of numerous Acts, Laws and regulations.

Cheers, Ron.
AnswerID: 603619

Follow Up By: Dave(NSW) - Saturday, Aug 20, 2016 at 22:27

Saturday, Aug 20, 2016 at 22:27
He did say this
( about three years ago I started working with the Arabana Aboriginal Corporation to talk about the possibility of restoring it," )
GU RULES!!

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  Send Message

1
FollowupID: 873208

Follow Up By: Member - Ross N (NSW) - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 07:39

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 07:39
Time will tell if the huge beauracracies have a sense of humour.
Ross Nielsen
0
FollowupID: 873213

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 11:19

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 11:19
.
Ron, I appreciate what you say about "EPA rules" etc, but I secretly salute mavericks such as Phil Turner et al who keep alive some whimsy in our dreary "politically correct" society.
Cheers
Allan

Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

6
FollowupID: 873224

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 16:26

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 16:26
Learn to read all the relevant article , the traditional owners of the land LOVE it .
0
FollowupID: 873245

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 16:41

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 16:41
Alloy, it could be useful if you indicate just who you are addressing?
Cheers
Allan

Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

0
FollowupID: 873247

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 16:54

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 16:54
Twas directed to the Nay sayer , the one who seems to decry a great achievement done with THE PERMISSION of the native title landholders , the one who thinks its a great crime that the EPA was not informed ,or that umpteen hundreds of wasted man hours in meetings should have been involved and thousands of $$$ been spent on a rejuvenation of a iconic tourist attraction that just appeared out of nowhere and was a great Australian mystery.
3
FollowupID: 873250

Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 19:44

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 19:44
All I'm saying is - these two publicans might be about to find out, what disobeying controlling authorities in the 21st century, will cost them.

Maybe they've factored that cost in - but maybe also, they haven't factored in the additional cost of an EPA court-backed, land-restoration order!

They had better be able to produce that written permission from an Aboriginal Land Council - plus a written approval from the EPA for the native flora destruction and the stripping of soil - or their case might not be able to stand up to serious legal scrutiny!

Cheers, Ron.
0
FollowupID: 873272

Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 20:39

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 20:39
Here is the copy of the Native Title Agreement for the Arabana People.

Arabana Native Title Agreement

Note that the Agreement allows the local Aboriginals to carry out all their usual tribal activities on their Land, that they have carried out since they arrived in Australia - BUT - note this particular line ....

(the agreement allows Aboriginals) "to cook on the Determination Area and to light fires for domestic purposes - but not for the clearance of vegetation;"

This wording immediately puts the two publicans on the back foot - as there is NO ABILITY FOR THE LOCAL ABORIGINALS TO APPROVE CLEARING AND EARTHWORKS ON THEIR LAND.

That over-riding ability is still held by the State Govt and the authorised Govt Depts - who still control any alterations to the land, or use of the land, outside Native Title agreed tribal uses.
0
FollowupID: 873274

Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 21:48

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 21:48
Dunno about that Ron. I think the paragraph refers only to the use of fires. They can cook and use fire for other domestic purpposes, but they cannot use fire for land clearing.

I can see no reference in that document to earthworks and other forms of "geo-shaping".

But I bow to your

"That over-riding ability [for clearing and earthworks on their land] is still held by the State Govt and the authorised Govt Depts - who still control any alterations to the land, or use of the land, outside Native Title agreed tribal uses."

That may come from other overarching legislation, but is not apparent in the Arabana Native Title Agreement.

If the matter is tested, it will be interesting to see the result.

Cheers
FrankP

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message
Moderator

1
FollowupID: 873279

Follow Up By: Ken - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 21:50

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 21:50
Ron I think in your earnest desire to make this into a far bigger issue than it really is you are either deliberately or inadvertently misinterpreting the words of the 'title agreement'. To me it says they can light fire to cook on but not to burn country to clear vegetation. Nothing do do with earthworks however minor and unless the re-instating was done by burning the words are irrelevant to what has been carried out.
Ken
0
FollowupID: 873280

Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 23:52

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 23:52
The bottom line is that ALL Native vegetation is protected in S.A., under the Native Vegetation Act 1991, as follows in the link below ...

Native Vegetation Act 1991 (S.A.)

The above Act stipulates that the entire State of S.A. is covered by the Act, apart from some minor exclusions, mostly around Adelaide.

The Act requires an applications for consent to clear native vegetation to be made, under Part 5 of the Act, to the Native Vegetation Council.

Failure to make application for consent to clear native vegetation, and clearing native vegetation without NV Council consent, results in serious penalties - refer to Part 5, Division 1.
$100,000 is the minimum penalty applicable to illegal native vegetation clearing.

There's more yet - that these publicans don't know or understand - the NVC and the Dept of Environment, Water & Natural Resources, use Satellite Imagery to regularly detect changes in vegetation cover and extent ...

DEWNR - Managing natural resources

Using Satellite Imagery to detect vegetation changes and illegal clearing has been in use since the mid-1970's.

Around 1975, I had a farmer client charged within days, for clearing vegetation on a Nature Reserve adjoining his property in the W.A. Wheatbelt.
He was stunned, and wanted to know how the Dept had found out.

The Departmental bloke promptly whipped out a large satellite photo, clearly showing the destruction.

I can pretty much assure those involved in the re-cutting of the etching that it will only be a matter of a short time before the ordure hits the rotating blades - and they'd better have a good story, and a good lawyer on retention, when it does.

Cheers, Ron.
0
FollowupID: 873284

Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 09:31

Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 09:31
Seems like these two blokes belong to the old school that still think you can fart without filling in an action plan first.
Dave.
2
FollowupID: 873290

Follow Up By: Allan B (Member, SunCoast) - Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 09:40

Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 09:40
.
"ordure" Ron? Now that's a new one for my vocabulary thanks. Must be even older than me! lol
Cheers
Allan

Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

3
FollowupID: 873291

Follow Up By: Bob Y. - Qld - Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 15:21

Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 15:21
That's a pretty flash way of saying "poo", Ron! :-)

Bob

Seen it all, Done it all.
Can't remember most of it.

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  My Position  Send Message

2
FollowupID: 873303

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 15:52

Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 15:52
Truth be known Ron is just 'odorous' because he with all his grader skills did not think of doing the restoration or being asked to participate …[ just a wee bit S!^^Y ]
2
FollowupID: 873304

Follow Up By: Ron N - Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 19:22

Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 19:22
Alloy c/t - Truth be known, I have no interest in being involved in what was, and still is, essentially an act of self-aggrandisement - carving a big piece of graffitti in the ground, that the original artist obviously wanted to be seen from space, so he could get some notoriety.

It has no artistic value, and I'm darn sure I (and a lot of other people), wouldn't pay good money to fly over it.
I have paid good money to fly over other worthy natural sights, though - such as the Bungles and Uluru.

I have also already left my "mark" on the Earth - in the form of probably 10,000-15,000 constructions and excavations, over 50 years - that have all added major value to the country - in the form of water-harvesting, flood diversion, road construction, mining valuable minerals - and dozens of other useful categories.

IMO, the original "Marree Man" artist was nothing more than a drongo who smoked way too many funny cigarettes.
His major claim to fame seems to be dying young after contracting septaecemia after having had a tooth punched out in a pub brawl.

His second claim to fame seems to be as a would-be troglodyte, by digging a huge great hole (probably with no authorisation or construction oversight, as well), and burying a caravan in it, in which he planned to live.

Naturally, the caravan collapsed when he filled the hole in, so I guess he went on to Plan B - sponging accommodation elsewhere.

"Marree Man" artist

If Phil Turner really wanted to encourage tourists to Marree, he would be far better advised to spend the substantial sum of money he spent on grading the bush illegally, to tune up the attractiveness of the town, to increase the quality and amount of accommodation in his pub or town, and to generally present perhaps a 4 star level of that accommodation.

After all, probably 98% of the tourists arriving in Marree arrive by road, not air - and I can't really see 90% of those tourist arrivals wanting to take a $200 or $300 flight just to see a bit of graffitti carved into the Earth.

Cheers, Ron.
0
FollowupID: 873321

Follow Up By: Dion - Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 19:59

Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 19:59
Wet blankets, get your wet blankets.









You're to late, Ron has them all.
1
FollowupID: 873324

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 21:02

Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 21:02
You really do just have 'poo' on your liver don't you Ron , YES most people DO go to Marree in a vehicle on their way to other iconic places that people on this forum have a wish to see , your attitude that $$$ to go and see the Marree man in all his glory just goes to show how SMALL minded you are .Scared of flying in a small plane are you ?
1
FollowupID: 873329

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Tuesday, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:18

Tuesday, Aug 23, 2016 at 10:18
$22million predicted increase in tourism by the rejuvenation of the Marree Man , Dick Smith announced he will fund a new airstrip nearby ,,,,, absolutely NO EPA concerns reported , so Ron N guess you can take your sour grapes and shove 'em where the sun don't shine.
1
FollowupID: 873346

Follow Up By: Member - John and Val - Tuesday, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:23

Tuesday, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:23
Wanting to leave your mark on earth is not so unusual, and goes back a long time. Think of Nazca lines, and the various chalk etchings of horses (incl the Uffington white horse) and other figures in England. Here is a pic of one of them, the Cerne Abbas Giant. The Maree man is in that tradition.
J and V
"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
- Albert Einstein

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  Send Message

2
FollowupID: 873347

Follow Up By: ModSquad - Tuesday, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:45

Tuesday, Aug 23, 2016 at 11:45
By all means have a discussion, have a heated discussion, but there's no need to resort to offensive name calling, you know who you are.
Moderation is just rules

Lifetime Member
My Profile  Send Message

1
FollowupID: 873348

Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Aug 23, 2016 at 15:20

Tuesday, Aug 23, 2016 at 15:20
J & V - Oh, well, that's great news! I've got access to about 50 bulldozers and graders, I've got the backing of a mega-millionaire - and I really feel the need to make my mark on the country, as an artist and tourism promoter!

So, first off, I think I'll head out and level out that big nuisance of a sand dune that they call "Big Red". There's no need for it, every 4-wheel driver complains about how difficult it is to get to the top of it - so I'll just level it into a 5 km square flat sand patch, to really leave my "artistry" mark on the place!

Just imagine the thanks I'll get, no more sandy slopes to spin your way up!

I've got some great designs copied off crop circles, I reckon I can mark out about 15 a week, all across the country, with the gear I've got.

Hey, I reckon I could make my etchings big enough to be seen from the moon!

I could even move in next door to you (just give us your address!) and leave my bulldozer and grader carving "artistry" on the patch of bush adjoining your house, for you to admire for the next 50 years!

Who cares about BS laws that stop me from doing what I want, when I want, anywhere, anyway??

Those laws are all just total BS, they just stop a bloke from doing what he wants, when he wants to!!

Gee, I reckon I'm going to be famous, just like that etching artist bloke in S.A. - just what was his name again, anyway??

Cheers, Ron.
0
FollowupID: 873349

Follow Up By: Dion - Tuesday, Aug 23, 2016 at 16:31

Tuesday, Aug 23, 2016 at 16:31
Speaking of sand Ron, you must have a fair bit in you to give you this big an itch.
0
FollowupID: 873353

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Tuesday, Aug 23, 2016 at 16:50

Tuesday, Aug 23, 2016 at 16:50
Someone definitely has sand in his jocks and bats in his belfry , his rants has given me a reminder to get EPA authorisation to pull our my 1 and only rose bush where I have plans to put in a 1.5m x1m x.2m sand pit for the grandkids to play with their toy trucks and graders.
0
FollowupID: 873354

Reply By: Member - Rod N (QLD) - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 06:29

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 06:29
Here is theChannel 10 News report video.
AnswerID: 603640

Reply By: OBJ - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 08:38

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 08:38
Political stupidity and bureaucratic idiocy and lunacy aside, nice to see "The Man" back!!! I flew over him (as a passenger) many years ago and was wondering what had become of him in more recent times. I trust he is there in his entirety, and has not had his "credentials" covered up.
OBJ
AnswerID: 603645

Follow Up By: Alloy c/t - Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 16:23

Sunday, Aug 21, 2016 at 16:23
Yep , flew over him in 2002 out of Marree on the way to the Birdsville races , good to see him back , and the nay sayers [including the EPA] can get 'stuffed' ,it a magical sight to see , the traditional owners of the land gave permission for the restoration ...
0
FollowupID: 873244

Reply By: Member - Terry W4 - Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 17:33

Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 17:33
This is Phil. Met him last year. Don't under estimate his knowledge and understanding of bureaucracy. He was a senior consultant in Canberra for 40 years including for my then department (immigration) in IT until he got a bit weary of it all and ended buying the Maree pub.

[img]
[/img]

AnswerID: 603706

Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 18:17

Monday, Aug 22, 2016 at 18:17
I don't know about anything else, but he does have a great sense of humour!

Phil took our order when we stopped in at the Maree Pub. I was talking to my wife when he asked what I was having - My son said he felt like a burger, I said I felt like a big burger too - I didn't see the wink.

When they came out, my sons was huge - then my came out - held together with a bloody knife stabbed through the middle of it.

PHIL just leant against the bar and laughed as he watched me eat it.

Cheers

Anthony
VKS 3539
Work - a 40 hour interuption to my weekend!
Too many places - too little time

Member
My Profile  My Position  Send Message

1
FollowupID: 873314

Reply By: Steve in Kakadu - Thursday, Aug 25, 2016 at 16:08

Thursday, Aug 25, 2016 at 16:08
Environmental vandalism if you ask me, but that is my opinion.

What ever floats your boat.

Steve
AnswerID: 603820

Follow Up By: Member - PhilD_NT - Thursday, Aug 25, 2016 at 16:52

Thursday, Aug 25, 2016 at 16:52
Hmmm, if that is so then aren't you working in an area with so many examples of what is no more than 20,000+ year old graffiti? Can you also confirm that none of that has ever been updated/repaired/touched up?
0
FollowupID: 873430

Follow Up By: Steve in Kakadu - Thursday, Aug 25, 2016 at 18:19

Thursday, Aug 25, 2016 at 18:19
Hi Phil

I could write volumes on rock art and how the aboriginal people used it for story telling and passing down knowledge, however I believe in this case it might fall on closed eyes.

Comparing rock art stretching back 40+thousand years, to a bulldozed figure in the outback to entice tourist is laughable at best.

Yes I can categorically guarantee that rock art in the Kakadu Arhemland region has not been touched up or repainted to enhance it's appearance for tourism, once again I have volumes of proof.

Some stories have been re painted next to the original to keep the story going, this was for their benefit not tourism the most resent was in the late 50's and most examples I have seen date back many thousands of years.

We do have a dedicated team in parks that do a lot of work protecting rock art, this does not include repainting touching up or repairing.

There are many books and articles written by learned people on the subject, I invite you to check them out and get the facts before quoting some bus driver dreaming story.

Steve.
1
FollowupID: 873439

Follow Up By: Member - PhilD_NT - Thursday, Aug 25, 2016 at 20:32

Thursday, Aug 25, 2016 at 20:32
Steve,
I realise that you have a vested interest in promoting Kakadu but it's a shame that your first method of attack is to stoop to low levels and try to denigrate your opponent with what is only person opinion based on not one bit of fact about me. I actually don't know of any bus drivers but I do have a long history of family and work in many NT places along with personal observations, probably going back further than your own. Our Family Tree is quite "colourful" by the way as well as documented association's with early Pastoralists back to the 1850's and even meeting with Burke & Wills in Qld.
Both ancient aboriginal paintings/carvings and this Marree Man were a product of the technologies of the time so it is irrelevant that one was by bulldozer as against what the aboriginies used way back then. To accept your idea is to refuse to accept current aboriginal produced art works as they are by your idea not traditionally produced.
My point was that provided Marree Man could still exist in 20,000 years then it would be seen as an ancient art work worth preserving, and in no way different to older aboriginal art works. There are plenty of aboriginal produced art sites that have been given various newer environmental protections from the elements to extend their life, and more should be.
To me, environmental vandalism (for art works) is idiots who carve their name across pre existing historic markings, such as what happened at Chambers Pillar for example. I see no claim that Marree Man defaced existing aboriginal markings and therefore in my opinion it is deserving of restoration. The only alternative is to put a roof over all of it.
Where do you draw the line on what should be protected? Is it just aboriginal produced items? Would you have the Dig Tree markings erased?
0
FollowupID: 873455

Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Aug 25, 2016 at 22:37

Thursday, Aug 25, 2016 at 22:37
PhilD_NT - What I'd like to know - is just who the experts were (both anthropological and Aboriginal) who examined the area, that the Marree Man encompasses, and who logged and recorded any or all the Aboriginal works, and sacred sites, in that area covered by the etching?

I cannot carry out any major earthmoving work, land development, construction, or mining work anywhere in Australia which is a known Aboriginal area, without producing proof that a survey to determine whether any Aboriginal Heritage sites are likely to be disturbed by the works, has been done.

S.A. was the first State in Australia to bring in Aboriginal Heritage Protection, in the form of the Aboriginal Heritage Act 1988.
Any proposed works in known Aboriginal areas in S.A. must comply with that Act - specifically Section 5.1.1. - to produce a survey of any likely Aboriginal Heritage sites, before any work commences.

AFAIK, no-one has ever done any required Aboriginal Heritage survey prior to any work commencing on the construction of the Marree Man, as the Aboriginal Heritage Act stipulates.

This makes a mockery of the white mans laws, and a mockery of Aboriginal Heritage claims, if the local Aboriginals approved the Marree Man work without reference to anyone, and without producing the required written Aboriginal Heritage study report.

Cultural Heritage Guidelines - S.A.

Cheers, Ron.
0
FollowupID: 873462

Sponsored Links

Popular Products (13)