Sunday, Oct 23, 2016 at 12:46
More bad news.......
As many others have said, dual cab utes and slide on campers are just dissapointment traps.
Let's start at the very beginning, because its a very nice place to start.
ALL the dual cab utes are a bad compromise from the very start ...... none of them are from the ground up designs ...... all of them are a single cab design that has a dual cab and a stumpy tray fitted as an after thaught with pretty much no further engineering.
Pretty much all the single cab utes are designed to carry the tray borne payload centrally over the axle ..... with a 8 foot tray that puts the axle pretty much in the centre of the tray ... so it's no major problem.
BUT even with a single cab and an 8 foot tray, it is wise to load the heavier things toward the front of the tray and realy heavy things either directly above or just infront of the axle.
If there is significant mass behind the axle and worse the further back it gets ...... even though it may be balanced and the rear axle is
well within its ratings ..... it presents a stability problem.
Large masses at the extremities of vehicles act as pendulums .... significantly exagerating oversteer on flat ground and tending to make the front lift and the tail wag in off road conditions ..... this is why rear wheel carriers are a very bad idea on utes.
all this is before you attach a trailer and all this is before you have a short stumpy tray on a dual cab that stops just in front of the rear wheels.
I have a pair of single cab utes, I drive them every day, often by the time they get tools, materials and ladders loaded they are pretty close to the money .... I also drive them far and fast doing country work, sometimes towing a trailer.
Pretty much every day I see dual cab utes, dragging their @$$#$ around town .... it's not that they are carrying a lot it is because it is all in the tray and mostly behind the axle.
When I have the 4wd loaded not for work but for travel ...... its is much lighter loaded, probably carrying about half a tonne all up ..... with the heavy items all low and in front of the axle it balances up pretty
well 50/50 front and rear.
I travel light, my kitchen is a butane stove & a plastic bowl and I sleep in a swag.
IF I was to put the same fairly modest amount of gear in the tray of a dual cab I'd be A/ crammed tight and B/ running pretty close to the money on the rear axle rating ......... AND I'd have this half tonne pendulum outside the wheelbase.
ALL this is without a camper body, big water tanks and heavy built in kitchens.
I have no doubt that it would be possible to build a workable on tray camper for a dualcab ....... but hell you would be punching the maths and using very clever construction methods ....... AND traveling very light.
Remember too that any slide on camper you still have the extra weight of the tray.
The other thing that terrifies me is how unstable slide on campers look on 4wds ...... I've seen em around town and they look bad enough leaning and body rolling on the corners ..... I would not want to drive one off road. ...... the high centre of gravity is a real issue.
the slide on camper was probably a great idea back in the 70's and 80's when they where carried mostly on road and mostly on full length utes and light trucks.
I think they are pretty much a bad idea on 4wds and a realy bad idea on 4wd dual cab utes.
cheers
AnswerID:
605331
Follow Up By: LAZYLUX16 - Sunday, Oct 23, 2016 at 15:50
Sunday, Oct 23, 2016 at 15:50
I agree with what you have said. But have seen a couple of dual cab Landruisers and Landrovers odf road with Trayon Slide ons and they both looked quite stable and owners were very happy with them. I liked the concept off not towing and can still go.offroad.The Trayons are not that high really. I considered buying a Trayon But cost involved to convert my dual cab was bit high.My fully loaded (perhaps too much weight )Dual cab Hilux including full spare on steel roofrack handled like a dream offroad and surprised me how capable it was. I had always owned Landcruisers so was a bit concerned about toughness of Hiluxs.Cheers P.S tent camping great but not in crap wet windy weather so my wife would like a camper van with shower and
toilet but hard to find compact offroad one ..
FollowupID:
875093
Follow Up By: splits - Sunday, Oct 23, 2016 at 16:53
Sunday, Oct 23, 2016 at 16:53
ALL the dual cab utes are a bad compromise from the very start ...... none of them are from the ground up designs ...... all of them are a single cab design that has a dual cab and a stumpy tray fitted as an after thaught with pretty much no further engineering.
=====================================
I don't agree that they are a bad compromise. Both single and dual cabs started many years ago as commercial vehicles with the same chassis and
suspension. One carried two workers and a large load. The other carried five workers and a smaller load. There was a need for both and both did an excellent job.
Things started going pear shaped years later when they became popular for recreational duties. That is when many owners started loading them up with half or less of the manufacturers intended maximum load in the cabin and far too much out the back. The aftermarket industry did not help by making products that had owners thinking they could load the car anyway they liked and these products would fix everything.
All these springs and air bags did nothing more than lift an correctly loaded and sagging rear end. They were nothing more than a cosmetic solution. Had they worked we would not have an endless number of broken cars all over the bush.
There is nothing wrong with the design which is why the manufacturers have not changed it. How could you change it anyway? They would need a truck like chassis with rear springs more suited to a train carriage to take what so many people load into the back of them.
If manufactures set them up to survive treatment like that, they would be very tail heavy. They would not break anymore but how on earth would they make them handle properly?
FollowupID:
875094
Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, Oct 23, 2016 at 16:59
Sunday, Oct 23, 2016 at 16:59
Plenty of people are oblivious to their stability problems .... many people would be greatly surprised how capable their 4wds are if they where not dissadvantaged by how much they carry the way they are loaded.
there is no question that slide on campers significantly raise the centre of gravity of the vehicle, some to a dangerous extent.
cheers
FollowupID:
875095
Follow Up By: The Bantam - Sunday, Oct 23, 2016 at 17:29
Sunday, Oct 23, 2016 at 17:29
Splits, mate dual cabs are a pretty recent thing ....... they pretty much did not exist before the 80's...... and they are a horror ...... they will not carry 5 "workers" in comfort, unless three of them are dwarfs or short skinny apprentices. .... no way I want to travel far in the back of any dual cab utility.
AND ya cant even lay a long handled shovel straight in most of the trays
There have been some instances including a recent issue with the SES, where once fitted out they are pretty much useless, because they are easily overloaded on one or the other axle.
the one tonne ute format, that comfortably carries average 2 adults and 1 tonne in the tray ...... with the tray payload centred over the rear axle works very
well.
It performs very
well off road with 2 in the cab and 500KG in the tray
But as soon as you try carrying 5 adults and a payload behind the rear axle, the whole format goes pear shaped. ...... ya simply cant put 5 x 90KG average workers, their lunch and their toolboxes in a vehicle that size without risk of overloaded one or the other axles ..... particularly when you fit a steel tray and a bullbar ....... this is why pretty much all the
mine spec dual cabs have upgraded
suspension or GVM upgrades.
It would not take a truck chassis and a rediculously stiff
suspension to to solve the problem ......... the solution is a longer chassis and a longer wheel base
BUT wait ... the Hilux extracab has a longer chassis and a longer wheel base..... but the dual cab does not ... figure that ...... I could never understand whay the hilux dualcab is not on the longer extracab chassis ...... though being longer again would be better
A dual cab format could be made to work far far better than it does if it was simply on a longer chassis
A far far better option is to move up into a small 4wd truck .... then you will get 5 in the cab in comfort and a tonne in the tray happily.
Yeh and ya probably get a whole pile of others things standard that people pay to modify in a light commercial ...... like bigger wheels, difflocks and no need for GVM upgrades
cheers
FollowupID:
875096
Follow Up By: splits - Sunday, Oct 23, 2016 at 18:19
Sunday, Oct 23, 2016 at 18:19
You can say what you like about them but they are currently selling like hot cakes and the manufactures have no intention of altering the design.
They will work perfectly for any owner who keeps them within their design limits. That applies to all cars, not just dual cabs.
FollowupID:
875099
Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Oct 24, 2016 at 00:00
Monday, Oct 24, 2016 at 00:00
They are selling like hotcakes, because there are tax advantages over a station wagon.
FollowupID:
875104
Follow Up By: Tomdej - Monday, Oct 24, 2016 at 07:55
Monday, Oct 24, 2016 at 07:55
The extra cabs have the same wheelbase as the single cabs and dual cabs. The problem with dual cabs is the fact that the rear wheels are not under the load of the tray. See my post further up regarding a chassis extension and you will see that a modified dual cab can carry a slide on camper.
FollowupID:
875106
Follow Up By: Baz - The Landy - Tuesday, Oct 25, 2016 at 07:52
Tuesday, Oct 25, 2016 at 07:52
Perhaps there are dual cabs, and there are dual cabs, but I have had no problems with ours...
Cheers, Baz - The Landy
FollowupID:
875134
Follow Up By: The Bantam - Wednesday, Oct 26, 2016 at 21:34
Wednesday, Oct 26, 2016 at 21:34
In the pre 05 hiluxes the single cab and the dual cab had a wheelbase of 2850, the extracab was 3085 .... 235 mm or 10 inches longer.
In the post 05 hiluxes they are all 3085 wheelbase.
lengthening the wheel base another 350 ish mm or 14 inches and reducing the rear overhang would make a great deal of difference to many of the dual cab problems.
cheers
FollowupID:
875189