Mechanic seized up my Landcruiser engine (1HZ)

Submitted: Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 10:28
ThreadID: 135156 Views:10541 Replies:21 FollowUps:65
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Hi

1998 GXL Landcruiser Diesel Manual (1HZ motor), 270,000 km

I had my pride and joy Landcruiser in with the workshop for a service and rego check last Friday here in Sydney and late in the afternoon a Neanderthal mechanic dropped it down of the hoist, ignored the lit red warning light on the dashboard and took it for a test drive "without any oil in the engine". He never made it back to the workshop, my beautifully looked after, maintained and reliable engine seized and blew up and the vehicle had to be towed back to the workshop on Saturday.

The owner of the workshop has said he will repair the damage with an engine rebuild to bring it back to “new”. He has mentioned two places Gem Industries (in Melb) and In-Tune Performance (Peakhurst Sydney). Does anyone know much about these businesses and whether they are up to the job? Are there others who will do a better job?

Is it best to get my own engine rebuilt/reconditioned or obtain an engine from the wreckers that I know nothing about?

How much will a rebuild cost vs wreckers engine?
Will a rebuild come with a warranty?

The owner has given me nothing in writing to say what has happened to my engine in fact all i got back on Friday afternoon was a passed e-safety check report for rego. Should I ask for something?

The owner of the workshop has provided me his car while he gets my car fixed.

What demands (if any) should I make and what should I do, I’m a little frazzled and very upset.
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Reply By: MUZBRY- Life member(Vic) - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 11:57

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 11:57
Gday
Gem engines have been doing diesel engines of all sizes and types succesfully for over 30 years and do a very good job.
Muzbry
Great place to be Mt Blue Rag 27/12/2012

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AnswerID: 612159

Follow Up By: Nomadic Navara - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 12:44

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 12:44
HM GEM Engines have been around for over half a century. Have used them back in the 80s. They used to re-manufacture engines rather than overhaul them, ie they had a production line that bored things out to a non-standard replacement size so things like valves were not standard OEM oversized parts. However their re-manufactured engines lasted at least as long as the originals and generally longer.
PeterD
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Follow Up By: bogdan - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 14:41

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 14:41
Okay thanks for your comments Peter and Muzbry. At least I know Gem is reputable and a should get a reasonable engine back.
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Follow Up By: Member -Dodger - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 14:08

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 14:08
Go for the gem engine. I have dealt with them and had great satisfaction with their short motor.
I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.

Cheers Dodg.

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Reply By: Member - Tony H (touring oz) - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 13:15

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 13:15
If the mechanic has given you his own car ....that is great.
Rather than making DEMANDS of him can I suggest REQUESTS be made.....the last thing you want is to get off side with him....it appears he has admitted liability, so let him run with that at this stage.
If he has work performance insurance (any sensible repairer should), you shouldn't have any dramas, BUT the insurance company will possibly ask you for a contribution if you want the engine fully rebuilt....as all they 'have to do' is give you your engine back in the condition it was 'before' the mishap....& this is where the proverbial may hit the fan!

Diarise every conversation with him (date & time).

Be prepared to be without the vehicle for at least three weeks.

Wishing you a speedy & successful resolution and outcome....please keep us up to speed on all developments.

What geographical area of this great country are you in?
Insanity doesnt run in my family.... it gallops!

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Follow Up By: bogdan - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 14:39

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 14:39
Thanks Tony, your right, requests not demands. The owner is reputable and doing the right thing.

I had talk with Toyota today and they still make the 1HZ engine about $13k list and perhaps as low as $10k thru a dealer. Rebuild probably around $6k.

I'm in Sydney.

Thank for your comments.
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Reply By: Ron N - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 15:21

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 15:21
I'm afraid, if it was me, I'd be getting the engine removed, rebuilt and re-installed by someone else besides the original clowns who ran it out of oil.

Who knows what you'll end up with, if they work on it again?

They're liable to re-install the engine, and end up with an ice-cream container full of left-over nuts and bolts, by the sound of it.

Anyone who calls themselves a licenced mechanic and who runs a customers engine without oil, and who completely ignores a red warning oil pressure light, should have their mechanical qualifications removed from them, IMO.

These blokes weren't wearing blue-and-white striped aprons, by any chance? Or high heeled boots with spurs?? It's unbelievable the stories you hear from so-called "repair shops".

Cheers, Ron.
AnswerID: 612162

Follow Up By: mountainman - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 18:08

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 18:08
Your forgetting that unlike you........
We all have made mistakes at work, that is the human factor.

but I bet you have made mistakes before and it doesnt get posted on the forum.
for everyone to get on their soap box or arm chair warriors

Such as history....
like bringing in cane toads or the dreaded carp...rabbits foxes and pigs
or should I rant on on how much other disasters all contributed to human kind.
plane crashes....chernobyl and on and on...


the mechanic owned up to his mistake.
Even lent his personal car.

bit unfair to bash the mechanic, pretty much saying his a idiot.
and doesnt deserve his trade papers.

do you know the complete whole story ? NO

I would highly recommend asking for a genuine toyota rebuilt kit be used during the rebuild of said engine
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Follow Up By: Member - Barnray (NSW) - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 18:43

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 18:43
Some Mechanics have a strong ethic about their Name so don,t bash them. I am 65 and still work part time.
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FollowupID: 882282

Follow Up By: IvanTheTerrible - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 19:33

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 19:33
An ex apprentice of mine destroyed an engine after fitting a wrong Alternator. Relied on the supplier saying it was correct instead of making sure.
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 20:04

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 20:04
I have a simple motto in life...

...Sh1t happens, it's how the sh1t gets sorted that matters.

Cheers

Anthony
VKS 3539
Work - a 40 hour interuption to my weekend!
Too many places - too little time

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Follow Up By: RMD - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 20:40

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 20:40
Some mechanics have strong ethics, usually the ones who check things and want it correct and get it correct all their life.

1. The oil was drained. That should be finished by refilling in the normal world. Something wrong if it isn't.
2. The oil level checked, Can't have been done. Bell No.2 not ringing.
3. Filter replacement was not done or forgot, Bell No. 3 not ringing.
4. Oil light on, No dash check done. Bell No. 4 not ringing.
Something is wrong with the mechanic not to do 4 vitals in a row and miss the lot.
Yes he is at fault but how could you, Drugs, grog, Migraine, there has to be some plausible reason why. Definitely a liability to the owner of the business.

60 series cruisers would shutdown if no oil after 30 seconds, Does 1HZ have that feature too?? If so, it wasn't working either.

I would like to have a new Toyota diesel fitted as it will enhance the vehicle and give the required reliability and a FActory warranty too.
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Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 22:19

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 22:19
This so called mechanic should be taken out the back and thrashed within an inch of his life ( and then some) with a dip stick . Get a life people.
Dave.
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Follow Up By: mountainman - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 23:53

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 23:53
And here lies the problem with the whole world.
the guy stuffed up... made a mistake
and you want to bash him till his almost dead.
you seriously have got issues when there are bigger problems in the world than a motor running dry of oil.

his gone out of his way to help the customer out.

damn soo much aggression in the world
chill out , get a fire going and enjoy the birds chirping and hear the creek flowing of water before you pop a valve or die from stress related cancer.



he could have said... ring my insurance company and you deal with it
but no
he gave his own personal car which in this day and age is pretty unheard of.
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FollowupID: 882299

Follow Up By: bogdan - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 00:34

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 00:34
mountainman above suggested to get a genuine toyota rebuilt kit. So does this mean we would source the rebuild kit from a Toyota dealer and then provide this to the engine rebuild company chosen by my mechanic to rebuild the engine?

Do these genuine toyota rebuilt kits exist for the 1HZ motor?


Thank you for your comments. The owner of the workshop is making enquiries of a number of engine rebuilders including:

Gem (in Melb?)
In-tune Performance (Peakhurst, Sydney)
APA ?

Should I have a preference and who is going to do the best job?
I do I (a non-mechanic) make sure I'm getting the best rebuild solution?

Does anyone have any thoughts of who would do a good engine rebuild for this engine?

Thanks richardmh
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Follow Up By: mountainman - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 12:11

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 12:11
Any Toyota dealership should be able to help

nothing is better than genuine gear!!
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Reply By: Duncan M4 - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 15:23

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 15:23
It MAY be worth giving your insurance company a call, this is likely an insurable event. It would be nice to get it fixed at your choice of repairer with a replacement engine rather than trusting it to this same guy again.. a rental vehicle in the mean time may also be an option.
AnswerID: 612163

Follow Up By: Chris. - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 15:49

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 15:49
agreed, have a chat to your insurer, tell them all the details. Depending on your cover, they may in fact cover the repairs & then chase the incompetent workshop.
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Follow Up By: bogdan - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 00:37

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 00:37
NRMA say they do not cover this event
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FollowupID: 882345

Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:49

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:49
Correct - NRMA do not cover this event, because their policy only covers the owner of the vehicle and any damage he has caused or incurred.

The mechanical repair business that caused the engine damage should carry a Public Liability Policy to the tune of several million dollars, at least.

If they have no PLP (an unthinkable position, but it's been known), then the business is totally liable for the repairs and the cost comes directly out of the business owners pocket.

Few people know or understand, that to make a claim on a PLP, the holder of the PLP has to admit negligence on their behalf.

This is about the only time, with insurance claims, where one has to actually admit negligence to be able to claim on the policy.

The business owner has admitted negligence to the vehicle owner, if he has a current, paid-up PLP, all he needs to do is submit a claim with all the details and costs involved, and the insurance company has no choice but to pay out verifiable costs incurred.

I have been in business, I was a one-third partner in a major business, that in the early 1990's, had over 100 employees, that grossed over $15M annually, and I have had extensive experience with insurance claims and brokers - and I even had to make a claim on PL insurance once, where we accidentally started a small fire that burnt an area of productive agricultural land, and the landowner claimed for losses. That modest claim was promptly settled without fuss, as our PLP at that time covered up to a $50M event.

Cheers, Ron.
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Reply By: Member - Roachie - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 17:52

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 17:52
If it was mine, I'd be straight on the horn to Andrew Liemroth at Berrima Diesel.

https://www.berrimadiesel.com/

They have a GREAT reputation and come highly recommended. They also have a Facebook page and post up lots of good short videos of tips and tricks etc.

Roachie

AnswerID: 612166

Follow Up By: Duncan2H - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 18:36

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 18:36
You dont think he's a bit full of it?
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 22:46

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 22:46
I agree with Duncan. Makes it up as he goes
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 15:05

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 15:05
I can only comment on my own personal experience........

Have either/both of you blokes had any experience with this firm?????? If not, I fail to see how/why you would comment!!!!!!?????

Back in 2000 I bought a brand new GU Patrol 4.2TD. It was "okay", but I felt that it wasn't as good as it should be (after having done around 20,000klm).

So, I drove from Yass to Berima for an allotted appointment.

When I left the freeway to drive up a fairly steep hill that led me to Berima township, I noticed that I had to use 2nd gear to get up the hill (even though I was already moving....IE: no standing start).

That afternoon, when I returned to collect the GU, Andrew's dad got me to take it for a test drive with him in the passenger seat.

He suggested I drive down the hill I had come up that morning, which I did.
I did a U turn at the bottom and had to give way to some traffic.....so I was heading back up that same hill from a standing start.

The Patrol was rocketing up the hill (from a standing start don't forget) and I was in 4th by the time I got to the top.

There was no "additional stuff" added to the vehicle....just a tune and adjustment of the injector spray patterns.

You may say they are F.O.S. (assuming that is what you 2 blokes are implying), but I will sing their praises at every opportunity because they got my rig running very well.

Cheers fellas, I'm just telling it like it is

Roachie
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FollowupID: 882327

Follow Up By: Tim F3 - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 17:34

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 17:34
Well i had shocking service to my vehicle at berrima..
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Follow Up By: mountainman - Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 19:03

Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 19:03
Another happy Berrima customer, for a tune and pump check, injectors

mind you
im pretty sure they wouldn't do engine rebuilds.
They make more money out of doing what they do now

plus rebuild time means they work on less cars..
engines tie up too much man hours ?
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FollowupID: 882454

Reply By: Baz - The Landy - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 18:06

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 18:06
Personally I would take control rather than leave it to the place that caused the trouble in the first instance. They've already displayed incompetence, so don't give them another chance to display incompetence once again.

Whilst it sounds good in principle to work with them and 'request' rather than 'demand' but what happens when they do what they said they would and it isn't to your satisfaction, where will that leave you?

Talk to your insurer and place it in their hands, that is what you've paid them for.

You need to control the outcome...

My two bobs worth and good luck.

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
AnswerID: 612170

Follow Up By: bogdan - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 00:46

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 00:46
Baz, I spoke with NRMA and they say they dont cover this event.

I like your comment that I should take control. I want to do this but I have no knowledge of the industry that would allow me to make informed decisions about who to use to do this rebuild for this type of engine. Any thoughts on who I need to talk to?
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Follow Up By: Baz - The Landy - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 05:31

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 05:31
It appears the company suggested sounds okay, my point is that you ensure you understand your rights in this instance. For that it might pay to speak to a legal person, if for no other reason that you are informed.

Good luck with it all

Cheers, Baz
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Reply By: IvanTheTerrible - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 20:23

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 20:23
How untrusting this world has become. The guy has made a mistake and has offered to rectify this and some of you guys want him hung, drawn and quartered. Insurance only requires secondhand parts on a vehicle that old so he only really has to fit one from a wreckers. He is going to rebuild it which means a majority of new or rebuilt parts that will include things like the water pump and injector pump and injectors. He has also loaned the customer a car. I as a business owner have been in this position and know that this guy has gone beyond what is required.
AnswerID: 612174

Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 22:48

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 22:48
Yes. The mechanic is fine - stick with him.
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FollowupID: 882293

Follow Up By: RMD - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 23:19

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 23:19
Phil G (SA)

The Boss sounds fine but the mechanic definitely ISN'T.
Without oil, the bearings/big ends would rattle from startup until destruction. The mechanic "heard nothing" to alert him? even after making a long series of mistakes. Not a mechanic to me.
I used to try and teach those types of mechanics, most are not very mechanically savvy. Only 9% pass a higher level of mechanical understanding on VACC testing. Been there done that. The failure rate absolutely amazed me.
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FollowupID: 882296

Follow Up By: bogdan - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 00:55

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 00:55
Yes, this guy missed all the signs, mechanics 101.
This engine has always been a beautiful running engine serviced meticulously, and then some idiot comes along and kills it.

I belief that there were a number of different mechanics working on my car that day, therein is also another problem.
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Reply By: Ron N - Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 23:15

Monday, Jun 26, 2017 at 23:15
There are professional mechanics - and there are mechanics who couldn't be trusted with just a simple screwdriver and an adjustable wrench.

Then there are outright amateurs ....

1HZ on 3rd rebuild due to total incompetence

The engine needs to go to a professional rebuilder with diesel experience, and particularly Toyota diesel experience.
Every engine has it's little rebuild quirks and traps for the unwary and unknowing.

Once a diesel engine has been run until it has seized, you have the potential for crankshaft cracks due to bearing metal galling causing hot spots in the bearing journals.
Sometimes, any small cracks found can be ground out - if there's big cracks, that remain after grinding, the crankshaft is toast.

ALL engine oil galleries have to be thoroughly - and I mean thoroughly - cleaned of any residual metal shavings.

Of utmost importance is the oil cooler, which can have metal shavings pumped into it.
If there is any suspicion of metal shavings being harboured in the oil cooler, then the oil cooler must be replaced.
It is virtually impossible to properly clean a Japanese diesels oil cooler, because of their style of construction.

I have watched, as a very large Caterpillar bulldozer engine, reconditioned by a "reputable" engine reconditioner, failed totally (seized) within 30 seconds of startup after installation, because the oil galleries were not cleaned thoroughly.

I have had large reconditioned diesel engines fail on me with weeks of reconditioning, because "el-cheapo" engine reconditioners used plasma metal spray to rebuild worn crankshafts.
The metal spray buildup promptly peeled off after around 100-150 hrs in service.

If an engine has been run without oil until it seized, then every single component that is lubricated by oil needs to be checked for wear, and that wear has to be measured against the wear limits for that individual component, as set by the manufacturer.

The oil pump will almost certainly have incurred damage, and will need to be replaced or rebuilt.

Piston heights and head gasket thickness are crucial when rebuilding the 1HZ.
There are several thicknesses of head gasket available, and the thickness used affects the compression ratio.

The piston height is critical because the valves come so close to the piston in operation.
Any error here results in valves contacting pistons, and as you might guess, that is a recipe for engine destruction.

All in all, you don't want turkeys rebuilding your diesel, you want competent mechanics with diesel experience and the ability to understand the manufacturers information - and that they check every single factory specification is within tolerance.
This even includes items such as flywheel runout - a crucial tolerance that is rarely checked.

A competent reconditioner should provide a warranty on a rebuilt engine of not less than 6 months.

1HZ lubrication system

Cheers, Ron.
AnswerID: 612180

Follow Up By: bogdan - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 01:09

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 01:09
Thanks Ron, any ideas on who is the right person to rebuild my engine?
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FollowupID: 882348

Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:22

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:22
Bogdan - GEM have been in business for as long as I can remember (and I started in business in 1965, owning mechanised plant and equipment) and they have a long-standing reputation for professional engine reconditioning.

GEM specialise in engine reconditioning and have always done so. They offer a 1 yr unlimited km warranty on their reconditioned engines, and I don't think you could beat that anywhere.

Unfortunately, it's sign of the times, that the engine reconditioning business is only a shadow of what it used to be, with very few engines needing reconditioning today, as compared to the 60's and 70's.

Engine reconditioners now only number a handful in Australia, and you often have the choice of only a couple of businesses that still do this type of work.

Diesel reconditioning needs to be carried out by a business that has experience in that field, and GEM outline their history, their experience, and their qualifications, very well, in that line of work.

GEM engine reconditioning

Cheers, Ron.

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Follow Up By: gelatr - Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 20:35

Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 20:35
I have to agree - HM Engines (GEM) are one of the best around. The fact that they are still in business after many have long gone is testament to the quality of their work. These guys have been rebuilding diesels for as long as I can remember and I am talking heavy duty stuff like Cat and Detroit.

Engine rebuilders employ first class machinists, not mechanics. They use highly specialized equipment to recondition engine components. Accordingly forget your Berrima diesels and so forth as it would be highly unlikely that they would have the required machines on site. They would most likely have to outsource things like crankshaft and cam shaft grinding, etc.

Regards,

Geoff
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FollowupID: 882428

Follow Up By: bogdan - Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 23:56

Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 23:56
Thanks Ron & Geoff,

Gem seem like one business to put on the list. Are there any others in Sydney you would trust with this engine.

The workshop owner has told me today that he is having the cylinder head and engine block sent away to a reputable machine shop of "his choice" to be reconditioned. I'm not sure that the owner has any intention of claiming this thru his insurance and so I would be concerned that the owner may choose a machine shop that suits his interests not mine and that the parts used may not be the best quality and certainly not genuine Toyota which is what he broke. Should I take control, can I ask for details of his insurance company?

Help, Richard
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FollowupID: 882436

Follow Up By: Ron N - Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 01:34

Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 01:34
Richard, you definitely need to make it clear to the workshop owner that your engine was genuine Toyota, and that you want it rebuilt with genuine Toyota parts.

Tell him you also need to know the name and location of the "reputable" machine shop, and if they are competent and experienced in the repair of diesel engines.

You need to make your position clear to the workshop owner, without upsetting him, and keep an accurate diary record of all discussions and decisions, and also ask what kind of warranty he is supplying on the engine rebuild.

Whether the owner claims on his insurance or not, is not really your concern - that is a business decision by the workshop owner, and you just need to make clear, your major concern is that the workmanship in the reconditioned engine is not going to become a major cost-cutting exercise.

After all, if an insurance claim is made, there is no guarantee that you would be able to control the quality of the repair overseen by the insurance company.

All that you should be concerned about, is that the repair work meets an acceptable and satisfactory level, and that a reasonable-length warranty is supplied for the reconditioned engine.
He should provide a minimum of 6 months warranty on the reconditioned engine.

The NSW Fair Trading site only says ...

1. That services will be carried out with due care and skill, and,
2. That any components supplied in connection with those services will be reasonably fit for the purpose for which they are supplied.

This wording appears to give the repairer, the option of utilising aftermarket parts, if he/she so chooses.
I have personally used many aftermarket parts over many years and found most were of satisfactory standard.

However, it wasn't uncommon to find that aftermarket engine component suppliers (such as piston and ring suppliers) supplied older designs of rings and pistons, when the genuine product had moved on to an improved design, with better performance and life.

I'm sure that "registered design" and patents had a lot to do with the aftermarket suppliers being unable to supply current design components.

Manufacturers are constantly improving their products, particularly where they have had a problem with, say, oil consumption, or inadequate lifespan of the component.

You can use this point to strengthen your argument when you present your case that you want genuine parts used in the reconditioning.

Also - It pays to remember, that a key word in insurance policies is "indemnify".
To "indemnify", within insurance policy wording, is to cover the insured, so that they end up, no better off, and no worse off, after an insurable event.

In the insurance industry, this would mean that the insurance company is within its legal rights to merely supply a replacement engine, that has already done 270,000kms, the same as your engine - and that would mean, a used engine sourced from a 4WD wrecking establishment.

Cheers, Ron.
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FollowupID: 882437

Follow Up By: GREG T11 - Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 20:29

Friday, Jun 30, 2017 at 20:29
Hi Richard, I feel your pain, been down a similar road as well. My 2 cents is you have 3 options.

1/ Leave it in his hands to do as he plans and hope that the workmanship is acceptable, but... who is assembling it.? A machine shop machines, they generally don't put it all back together so regardless of what parts are used you want to know who is doing the real important bit.

2/ Negotiate a deal involving a reco GEM or similar motor that you put money towards. I know it sounds ridiculous that you should have to stump up for someone else's mistake but going by the to and fro you are having with mechanic it sounds like he's backing off his original promise.

3/ Go the legal route but be prepared to have your vehicle off the road and perhaps not in your possession for a number of months.

In my case 20 years ago when we had little money it would have been option 1.
With the added threat that his life insurance had better be current.

Now it would be reluctantly option 2.Only because I have a little more free cash but still time poor.

In a couple of years bring on option 3. Money poor but time on my hands !

Good luck, I hope you sort it.



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FollowupID: 882455

Reply By: rumpig - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 06:43

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 06:43
Reads to me like it was an employee of the company that made the mistake, and the owner has not only lent the customer his vehicle, but suggested 2 other businesses to rebuild the motor for the OP. If that's the case, then what more do people expect the owner of the business to do other then what he's doing?.
AnswerID: 612181

Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:01

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:01
Agree rumpig!

"The owner of the workshop has said he will repair the damage with an engine rebuild to bring it back to “new”. He has mentioned two places Gem Industries (in Melb) and In-Tune Performance (Peakhurst Sydney)."

To me, it reads that he accepts responsibility for the damage and will outsource the repairs at a place of the owners choosing.

Why are so many people slamming him? - he seems to be doing everything to get the job done.

Why are so many slamming the mechanic? - put your hand up if you have never made a mistake!

Bogdan - you have had good advice re the use of Gem industries (from members with very good credibility). Your engine will be covered by a warranty (from Gem and usually 3 months on recon and 12 months on rebuild - you will need to check though).

A recon only does the basics, a rebuild/remanufacture idea engine is better. A wreckers engine won't come with a warranty (how can they?). If your looking at a new motor suggest to the owner that you pay the difference.

Despite your current grief, you seem to have a decent mechanic. You just have to choose a course of action that will give you a suitable outcome.

Remember - sh1t happens - it's how the sh1t gets sorted that matters! It looks like yours is on the road to being sorted.

Cheers

Anthony
VKS 3539
Work - a 40 hour interuption to my weekend!
Too many places - too little time

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FollowupID: 882304

Follow Up By: bogdan - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 01:16

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 01:16
Thanks Anthony, yes the mechanic shop owner is doing the right thing. At this stage I have't been given a choice of who should do the rebuild, any ideas?
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 09:43

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 09:43
Sorry mate,

I'm on the west coast and have no experience with either of the companies mentioned.

Muzbry has recomended GEM Industries - he is one of the forums "elder statesmen" and I not drawn to exagerated or BS. I hold his advice in high regard.

Cheers

Anthony
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Reply By: 9900Eagle - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 08:15

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 08:15
Bogdan, I wish some here could see what g=has happened and that can't be changed even by flogging someone.

The business owner has done the right thing by admitting their fault and offering compensation.

Yes, Gem are ok and have been around for a long time. For me, if I could get a new long engine under $10000 I would go that way as you know exactly where it came from and it will last the life of the vehicle.

Just a couple of things. I have had first hand knowledge of 2 cat C15 and C16 engines, rebuilt by Cat that failed very shortly after rebuild. There was no problem with them suppling other engines after the failures, but the downtime was the killer.

For the knockers of people that make errors. I again had first hand knowledge of a very competent person that caused $5 million damage including downtime to a machine. Was he sacked no, because he just plain made a human mistake.
AnswerID: 612183

Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:10

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:10
9900Eagle - You're right, what has happened can't be changed.

What can happen though, is the business owner can make changes to his employment methods and checks, to ensure the absolute minimum possibility of a similar event happening again.

It's obvious the employee lacks even basic mechanical skills and mechanical feeling.

Not only was the employer lax in checking the basic skills and abilities of his employee, he was lax in his supervision of his employee, who is being entrusted with customers vehicles, that can possibly be worth huge sums of money, and cost huge sums, to repair any careless damage, to those vehicles.

Bottom line is, people who operate businesses involved in the repair of expensive equipment need to ensure that the people they employ are competent, possess the basic skill sets that make them a valuable employee, and demonstrate that they are capable of carrying out repairs in a manner that doesn't cost the business a fortune, and result in destruction of the businesses reputation for competent work.

Engine reconditioning is one of those areas where competence must reach a high level, mistakes must be eliminated via intense supervision and double checking, and experienced employees must be in charge of the work.

The biggest mistakes here, are that this business owner is employing a burger flipper who passed himself off as a mechanic - the business owner didn't supervise the burger flipper adequately, to ensure that he had the right skills - and the business owner didn't understand that even just a simple oil change was beyond this clowns ability - thus leaving the business owner wide open to major cost burdens on his business.

The simple fact is, that people who run businesses in this manner rarely stay in business - because they continue to carry out repair work that is lacking in competence, and the damage bill ends up breaking them.

In addition, word gets around that the business is known for a lack of competence and the work level falls away.
A business such as a mechanical repair shop, is based on a great deal of trust between the business and its clients - and that trust relies on the business exhibiting and providing, a very satisfactory level of competence.

This business has not provided any evidence of a satisfactory level of competence and supervision - even if the business owner has gone to lengths to provide rectification of the damage caused.
The true level of damage is to his business reputation, and the doubt cast on his ability to employ competent mechanics.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:57

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:57
Ron

Can I have the address of your business - because you obviously have it all together and I can be guaranteed that nothing will ever go wrong or get damaged. I want to spend my money at your place.

You claim to have owned a major transport business running vehicles that numbered into the triple figures - obviously not on your own. I would love to be able to use the selection criteria you use to select employees. It must really sort out those in "high heels and Spurs" brigade.

You write your diatribe, bagging all and sundry without a full grasp of the facts. You make a lot of assumptions. You sprout facts without basis or source.

The link you supply to illustrate you point of lack of competence of the mechanical ability in the op's case is irrelevant. The first two rebuilds were completed by the owner of the motor not a mechanic - the use of the pronoun "HE" throughout the article would indicate this.

"...this business owner is employing a burger flipper who passed himself off as a mechanic..." - if you were at the employment interview, why didn't you check his qualifications?

"...the business owner didn't supervise the burger flipper adequately, to ensure that he had the right skills..." - if you were in the workshop to observe this, why didn't you intervene?

"...the business owner didn't understand that even just a simple oil change was beyond this clowns ability..."

People make mistakes - that's why pencils have rubbers and cars have bumpers!

This is what makes us human.

Anthony
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:53

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 11:53
Anthony, you hop on a an aircraft, totally reliant on the skills and competence and adequate supervision of people that have worked on it, trusting that it won't fall out of the sky and take you to your unnecessary death.

Now, engine damage isn't in quite the same scenario - but a properly trained, properly supervised, and licenced mechanic is entrusted with the proper repair of road vehicles, to ensure that your steering components don't come apart when you're barrelling down the freeway at 120kmh.

This is why "chain of responsibility" is now in place in the transport chain - because careless and incompetent and poorly-supervised clowns in the past were allowed open slather to repair vital truck components.
Some of them couldn't even replace a wheel without it coming off and killing someone.

Yes, at the end of the day, it's only an engine, and it can be repaired, and it will cost the business owner a heap of money.

The problem is deeper, though. The bloke is reputedly a LICENCED and AUTHORISED repairer, who does safety inspections as well.
I hate to think what else has gone wrong, been stuffed up, and slipped through without supervision, in this business.
The ramifications are enormous, and that is why we have regulation, licencing, training and competence qualifications in place.

If you're happy to live with 3rd world competence, lack of supervision, and a shrug of the shoulders, and a "sh!t happens" quote, right after a totally-avoidable disaster - then I'm sure you'd be right at home in places such as Nigeria, or some other 3rd world country, with little regulation, and even less competence.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 12:20

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 12:20
It's easy to be hard on the mechanic who is apparently "at fault". But maybe it's not entirely his fault. Maybe we only have part of the story. Those with aviation experience may be familiar with the Reason model as to why an event occurs - it's been quoted here before. Basically you have multiple layers of defence against an incident, but each layer has a small flaw. If all the flaws line up, you have an incident. But if even one flaw is unaligned with the rest in the stack, you don't.

The defences here could be

Recruitment
Training
Supervision
Management of workload
Management of distractions
Quality control

Anyone can make up a list of flaws under those headings - poor recruiting procedure, like sloppy interview, not asking the right questions, followed by inadequate training, inadequate testing of knowledge and procedure etc etc.

Supervision - was the mechanic an apprentice? Or a kid off the street? Or a long-term employee (hope not!)? Different levels of supervision required. Was the level given on the day appropriate?

Workload - was the job being rushed to get it out the door to meet a deadline? Was the boss harried and under pressure, too busy to properly supervise?

Distractions, legitimate and otherwise. Was the mechanic being swapped from one task to another by his boss? Taking phone calls? Talking to walk-in customers?

Quality control. Was there a culture of quality control in the business? Like final checks of vital actions before starting an engine or doing a road test. Second nature to some, but needs to be taught to newbies. There may be a supervisory aspect here.

Etc, etc.

Some time ago I was working at a place that sells caravans. One was prepped for a show with the standard steel wheels replaced with nice shiney alloys. On the way to the show a wheel fell off - all the wheel nuts had come undone. The young bloke who had been tasked with changing the wheel was initially "blamed". But a longer term employee pointed out

1) The kid was just a general shed hand, not a mechanic

2) In the rush to get everything ready for the show the shed hand had been diverted from one task to another to another and partway through fitting the alloy wheels had been told to do something else

3) The shed hand was young, inexperienced, new on the job, and was not assertive enough to say "hang on, I haven't finished this yet"..He just did what he was told.

4) Before driving out, in the rush to get on the road no-one checked the wheel nuts

Hardly the kids fault, and that was recognised.

But I still cannot understand why the OP's red oil light was ignored. That's common knowledge. Or is it?

Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 13:07

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 13:07
A well reasoned response Frank!

Was there even a oil warning light illuminated?

Cheer

Anthony
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 13:38

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 13:38
:-)

Yes the OP mentioned the red light at the start.

Thanks

Frank
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Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 13:56

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 13:56
Yes! I read that,

but is th OP assuming it was lit?
Did the mechanic see it and say it was lit?
Was it faulty and not lit?
Was there enough oil in the system for it to be deactivated, but insufficient oil to sustain the engine?

My point is... There have been a lot of assumptions and apportioning of blame regarding the whole issue.

What it comes down to is it happened. It is up to the Owner of the workshop to work out why and put things in place for it not to happen again.

It is also up to the Owner of the workshop to remedy the situation. From what the OP has stated, offers have been made and the Owner is doing something to get the ball rolling.

Based on what the OP has stated, I think what the Owner has done thus far is reasonable. It would seem a few of the unreasonable members of the forum are simply baying for blood and beating their chests in their own self importance with little or no accurate information.

Anyway, at he end of he day I wish the OP all the best in getting his vehicle back on the road.

Cheers

Anthony
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Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 19:06

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 19:06
A warning light or gauge are very poor ways to sense a critical problem - they need to audible (loud even).
One day Toyota will wake up to this.
My wife's VW alarms seem to be audible and better thought out.
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Reply By: Malcom M - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 09:31

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 09:31
Look on the bright side.
You now have the opportunity to fit uprated pistons and bearings etc and get it ready to turbo.
AnswerID: 612187

Follow Up By: mountainman - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 12:05

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 12:05
Why the heck stop there
get a 1hdt head pump and g turbo

twice the power of the old 1hz slug
use the old block and crank.
heaps more power and better on economy.
ive got one in the shed
Exactly as I described
ready to be rebuilt
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FollowupID: 882314

Follow Up By: Malcom M - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 12:46

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 12:46
Doubt the mechanic will stump up for that lot...
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FollowupID: 882316

Follow Up By: Jackolux - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 13:13

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 13:13
If it was my vehicle I would be talking real nice to the mechanic and coming to some compromise where I would come up with some cash and do what mountainman said .
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Follow Up By: Malcom M - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 14:16

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 14:16
yeah but at that point I'd be putting a 1HD-FTE in it.
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Follow Up By: bogdan - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 01:37

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 01:37
Okay, so i'm the owner, i'm listening mountainman, what do I need to source and where from to make the modifications being suggested. Details please...

By the way could I put a 1HD-FTE (I assume that means turbo diesel) into this vehicle? Wouldn't you need to update transfer case and drive shafts for this extra power thru the system?
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Follow Up By: mountainman - Saturday, Jul 01, 2017 at 23:18

Saturday, Jul 01, 2017 at 23:18
I believe from lcool
all 1h blocks are the same
as in 1hz 1hdt 1hdft 1hd fte

only difference is
you need to drill a turbo oil line in the block if your running a 1hz block.
Of which any good machine shop should do easy and cheaply.

I have been looking at 1hdt motors for quite some time.
in that time I have seen quite a few with cracked blocks.
and replacement 1hdt blocks are hugely expensive and even rare to source.
therefore you use a 1hz block.
of which there are millions in Australia and I have hardly ever heard of one crack.

ypu chase a 1hdt head..
injectors and pump
turbo
unfortunately you have a dead vehicle in a workshop, soo at best chasing down a wrecker with a stuffed motor or someone online ...you will need time.

difference between 1hdt and 1hz
1hz is indirect injection
1hdt is direct injection.
1hdt has a different head...direct injection
and a different pump

The power difference is worth the stuffing around and added cost
I wpuld highly recommend a g turbo rebuilt turbo
you will gain awesome power and greater fuel economy.

Unfortunately you do need time to source said parts
unless you chase a wrecker for a stuffed motor
USE your 1hz block !!!
That way rego time
its the same block
youve only added a turbo

pistons and conrods on a 1hdt are much stronger than 1hz
being stronger to handle turbo
crankshafts are exactly the same

please do only use toyota rebuild kit
as I bought a 1hz/1hdt motor off gumtree
and it hasnt got genuine gear in it
cracked pistons !!!!!!!
I bought it as a rebuilder
why try save $500 on aftermarket rubbish
when yoir going to put 3-400k on this motor

its stupid

I have someone highly experienced in the above setup
and have built over 50 1hdt motors
seen the non genuine rebuilds come back !!
He only will use and recommend using genuine gear

tacklesnout@yahoo.com
I will chat/email reply there
saving dragging this thread out
and give you a recommendation of shop to do motor
he knows his toyota stuff !!
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Follow Up By: bogdan - Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 11:17

Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 11:17
Great comments mountainman, really appreciated.

Here's a summary of recent developments for you and everyone on the forum:

On Thursday (29/6/17) the mechanic (at fault, but not admitted "in writing" at this time) has advised me by email he will be removing the engine from the vehicle, removing the cylinder head for inspection and having the cylinder head and engine block sent away to a reputable machine shop of his choice to be reconditioned. He will provide a lifetime warranty on the work he carries out and the engine reconditioning will have a 12 month & 20,000km parts & labour warranty.

I visitied the owner at his workshop on Friday morning (30/6/17) and seen the vehicle up on the hoist (I took some photos) but no work commenced yet. I issued instructions at the time for him to delay work on removing the engine from the vehicle to enable me time to get educated on my options so that I can come back to him sometime next week with my thoughts on how this engine should be rebuilt (who?, which parts Toyota Genuine vs after-market, etc.). He reluctantly agreed and reconfirmed his intention to use after-market parts saying that Toyota don't manufacture their own parts anyway, all sub-contracted to third-party manufacturers. When I asked him which machine shop he would be using he said "In--Tune Perform, ance" here in Penshurst Sydney. That at least gave me some slight comfort because as part of my independent research I had coincidently spoken with the owner of ITP the day before at his workshop and it had given me some "layperson" confidence that his machine shop was capable of doing a good job. The owner of ITP had also suggested to me that I should not be afraid of using "quality" after-market parts to which he made reference to an example of a place called "Precision, International," here in Silverwater, Sydney that he sometimes uses for after-market parts when rebuilding engines machined by him.

I rang Precision, International, on Friday afternoon and the sales rep was able to give me a "retail" quote of $935 incl GST on a Toyota 1HZ rebuild kit (pistons, rings, crankshaft, bearings, gaskets, pin bushes, head bolts, cam bearings). He said these come with a 12mth/20,000km warranty and when I asked about quality and examples of where these parts were sourced from for this kit he said:

- pistons (their own, whatever that means?);
- gaskets (Japan);
- rings (Japan or Taiwanese);
- bearings (America or Japan)

I have also asked a Toyota dealer here in Sydney to provide a trade quote on the list of parts required to do a rebuild of this engine which I should have tomorrow.

One of my biggest concerns at present it that the owner has suggested to me that he is NOT going thru his Business Insurance for this repair but is funding it himself. So I see an obvious conflict of interest here because there is the risk he may restrict repairs to save $$$. I already sense this as when I mentioned to him on Friday (30/6/17) his earlier discussion with me last Saturday (24/6/17) where he said that the rebuild would likely require new pistons, he said it may not require new pistons after all (but the engine hasn't even been disassembled at present so why suggest this?)

Why wouldn't he use his Business Insurance to cover the costs, other comments on this thread from expert loss assessors suggest he would likely be up for an excess of $500 to $1,000. But a rebuild I imagine is a $5,500 to $7,500 exercise depending on whether the crankshaft is toast. I can only speculate that this claim may push him into a large premium spike which may make it economical for him to fund the repair himself.

A mechanic friend of mine has also suggested to me that for me to get some comfort that all repairs would be done I should visit the mechanic (at fault) workshop once the engine is disassembled (and before sent to machine shop) to inspect the engine parts and take as many photos as possible (e.g. blue marks on overheated crankshaft, etched bores, destroyed bearings). My own Comprehensive insurance on this vehicle is with NRMA and even though this is not an insurable event for the purposes of my insurance, my friend said I may wish to get an NRMA assessor to accompany me to the workshop when I inspect the parts to ensure I get an expert independent mechanic to inspect the engine components while i'm taking photos.

Another thing, when an engine has no oil and seizes during a test drive like what happened to my vehicle, does this mean that the oil pump (I think a very expensive part) is also destroyed. What about the fuel pump, I assume that would be okay but I'm no mechanic.

Your thoughts on all of this mountainman/everyone?

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FollowupID: 882476

Follow Up By: Member - ACD 1 - Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 12:11

Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 12:11
Bogdan

Have you considered retaining the services of an Independent Loss/Risk Assessor?

I mean no disrespect, but some of the questions you are asking would indicate you have a limited mechanical knowledge!

I personally don't think you are going to get away without putting your hand in your pocket to get a final resolution you will find satisfactory. Buy using an expert (who will be on your side because your paying him) will hopefully ensure the questions you ask above will be answered. They will also oversee the rebuild process, will know the questions to be asked and what shortcuts to look for.

I have used them In the past and it worked out well for me. Cost at the time was around $350.

Cheers

Anthony
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Follow Up By: mountainman - Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 14:01

Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 14:01
Your replacing a factory genuine motor and parts with a aftermarket rubbish kit.

the other way if nit going turbo
is just install conrods and pistons that are 1hdt rated.
that way when you do decide to turbo it one day
the lower part of the engine is rated for turbo.

I dont see a problem in the shop not putting it through insurance
as long as he gives you a written letter of his great warranty.
Aftermarket pistons will never handle a turbo better than a factory setup.
I would happily PAY the extra on top of the aftermarket rubbish that he is only going to use.
im guessing Toyota dont make their own parts, but when theyre are literally millions of these motors in the world and all running genuine with no issues,
Why risk aftermarket rubbish.
they would have their own specs on the materials
used, higher grade of steel and a quality assurance.. which is proven as everone knows its never been a dud batch of 1hz motors ever built.
bringing an assessor into his workshop is a bit over the top.
the only issue I would have is making sure he did actually use a genuine rebuild kit.
I know of some machine shops say they use genuine... but install aftermarket rubbish and then bang...
the aftermarket stuff is what broke.

I would honestly look up carsales
search for a1hdt motor 80series
tale it for a test drive
that way you know what you will be driving/power wise and then have a end goal to see this eventuate
because youve driven one now.

and if you need the proof of why its important to use genuine
talk to DAZ at AUTOCRAFT in geelong.
his had motors go bang when engine shops use aftermarket rubbish
he will also fill you in on the gturbo
as he installs and tunes them
max power/economy
he is rebuilding my engine !!!
when I ever get around to it
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FollowupID: 882482

Reply By: Baz - The Landy - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 16:27

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 16:27
It will be interesting to see how this works out and if the outcome is to the satisfaction of Bogdan...

What he has is a broken vehicle that will require major expense, and good intentions from the business owner. I've often found that good intentions and money don't partner well, especially when the person writing the cheques is the one with the good intentions.

It might work out, it might not. And that is his dilemma, does he take a punt on it getting sorted to his satisfaction or risk discovering they were truly incompetent?

In the least he should talk to his insurance company or legal representative before agreeing to anything and get it all in writing..

Cheers, Baz - The Landy
AnswerID: 612191

Follow Up By: Les - PK Ranger - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 16:33

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 16:33
Now THAT is a good compromise to the 2 views at either end of the spectrum of posts made in this thread.
The business owner should recognise this response as sensible, and not an attack or demand by the OP.
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Reply By: Bobjl - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 20:58

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 20:58
Bogdan.
I spent a long time in the Insurance industry, much of last 30 years was connected to underwriting/claims and technical training roles and legalliability of our clients particularly Motor Traders. I have seen faulty work claims of every imaginable circumstance, yours is rather run of the mill. Insurers issue covers for negligence which includes stupidity and sometimes an apparent reckless disregard for the required checks and balances.

You have received a variety of responses and may be confused as to best approach. Some of the responses encouraged you to give the at fault motor mechanic/business the opportunity to reinstate your vehicle. I agree that is the best approach.

Based on their admission of liability together with the facts you have conveyed to us, together with their apparent good faith, then assuming the business has a current Broadform Liability Policy, they will have an excess for the claim of $500- 1000 only, so that is about all they will be out of pocket. They will be paid fair and reasonable costs for labor as well as the cost of say a new/ reco short motor and ancillary parts gaskets, oil etc to get you back on the road.

Insurers agreeing to indemnify [pay] a claim for "resultant damage of faulty workmanship", will not screw the claim unreasonably as this may expose them to further loss including hire cars etc. By way of example, to require the mechanic to source and fit a second hand motor from the wreckers etc or patch up the seized motor is very risky for them and may mean further loss if the reinstatement/repair goes wrong down the track.

It may be the case they will ask for contribution for betterment, but just tell them no, the engine was good for 500,000 k,s plus, it was in good order and you will not be able to pay a dime. Dependent upon what they will authorise the mechanic to do in the reinstatement of the motor will determine how you behave toward them.
I am happy to talk privately if you want to get some more detailed advice.
AnswerID: 612197

Follow Up By: Allan B (Sunshine Coast) - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 22:23

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 22:23
.
Good God. Someone who actually KNOWS what he is talking about!!!!!!

Cheers
Allan

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Follow Up By: bogdan - Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 19:31

Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 19:31
Boblj, thank you for your advice, most helpful. Since you offered your advice there have been some developments. With time of the essence could I take you up on your offer to talk privately on this matter?

Regards,
Bogdan


Here's a summary of some recent developments:

On Thursday (29/6/17) the mechanic (at fault, but not admitted "in writing" at this time) has advised me by email he will be removing the engine from the vehicle, removing the cylinder head for inspection and having the cylinder head and engine block sent away to a reputable machine shop of his choice to be reconditioned. He will provide a lifetime warranty on the work he carries out and the engine reconditioning will have a 12 month & 20,000km parts & labour warranty.

I visitied the owner at his workshop on Friday morning (30/6/17) and seen the vehicle up on the hoist (I took some photos) but no work commenced yet. I issued instructions at the time for him to delay work on removing the engine from the vehicle to enable me time to get educated on my options so that I can come back to him sometime next week with my thoughts on how this engine should be rebuilt (who?, which parts Toyota Genuine vs after-market, etc.). He reluctantly agreed and reconfirmed his intention to use after-market parts saying that Toyota don't manufacture their own parts anyway, all sub-contracted to third-party manufacturers. When I asked him which machine shop he would be using he said "In--Tune Perform, ance" here in Penshurst Sydney. That at least gave me some slight comfort because as part of my independent research I had coincidently spoken with the owner of ITP the day before at his workshop and it had given me some "layperson" confidence that his machine shop was capable of doing a good job. The owner of ITP had also suggested to me that I should not be afraid of using "quality" after-market parts to which he made reference to an example of a place called "Precision, International," here in Silverwater, Sydney that he sometimes uses for after-market parts when rebuilding engines machined by him.

I rang Precision, International, on Friday afternoon and the sales rep was able to give me a "retail" quote of $935 incl GST on a Toyota 1HZ rebuild kit (pistons, rings, crankshaft, bearings, gaskets, pin bushes, head bolts, cam bearings). He said these come with a 12mth/20,000km warranty and when I asked about quality and examples of where these parts were sourced from for this kit he said:

- pistons (their own, whatever that means?);
- gaskets (Japan);
- rings (Japan or Taiwanese);
- bearings (America or Japan)

I have also asked a Toyota dealer here in Sydney to provide a trade quote on the list of parts required to do a rebuild of this engine which I should have tomorrow.

One of my biggest concerns at present it that the owner has suggested to me that he is NOT going thru his Business Insurance for this repair but is funding it himself. So I see an obvious conflict of interest here because there is the risk he may restrict repairs to save $$$. I already sense this as when I mentioned to him on Friday (30/6/17) his earlier discussion with me last Saturday (24/6/17) where he said that the rebuild would likely require new pistons, he said it may not require new pistons after all (but the engine hasn't even been disassembled at present so why suggest this?)

Why wouldn't he use his Business Insurance to cover the costs, other comments on this thread from expert loss assessors suggest he would likely be up for an excess of $500 to $1,000. But a rebuild I imagine is a $5,500 to $7,500 exercise depending on whether the crankshaft is toast. I can only speculate that this claim may push him into a large premium spike which may make it economical for him to fund the repair himself.

A mechanic friend of mine has also suggested to me that for me to get some comfort that all repairs would be done I should visit the mechanic (at fault) workshop once the engine is disassembled (and before sent to machine shop) to inspect the engine parts and take as many photos as possible (e.g. blue marks on overheated crankshaft, etched bores, destroyed bearings). My own Comprehensive insurance on this vehicle is with NRMA and even though this is not an insurable event for the purposes of my insurance, my friend said I may wish to get an NRMA assessor to accompany me to the workshop when I inspect the parts to ensure I get an expert independent mechanic to inspect the engine components while i'm taking photos.

Another thing, when an engine has no oil and seizes during a test drive like what happened to my vehicle, does this mean that the oil pump (I think a very expensive part) is also destroyed. What about the fuel pump, I assume that would be okay but I'm no mechanic.

Sorry for the long post, but cut me some slack its been a bad week!

Your thoughts on all of this everyone and the recent developments in particular, what should I do now?
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FollowupID: 882492

Follow Up By: Bobjl - Monday, Jul 03, 2017 at 22:48

Monday, Jul 03, 2017 at 22:48
Bogdan,
Repairer may not want to blot his record with Insurer but that surprises me as he will incur a lot more than the likely excess.
Contact me by email and I will advise contact number. bob.jackie@bigpond.com
Bob
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FollowupID: 882543

Reply By: MUZBRY- Life member(Vic) - Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 21:31

Tuesday, Jun 27, 2017 at 21:31
Gday
Its nice to see this post coming through on google news when i turn on my computer .
Muzbry
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AnswerID: 612199

Follow Up By: bogdan - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 01:49

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 01:49
Google news?
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FollowupID: 882351

Follow Up By: Member - David M (SA) - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:36

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 10:36
Think that might go over their heads Muzbry :)
Dave.
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FollowupID: 882367

Reply By: Been-Everywhereman - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 09:06

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 09:06
Any mechanic that can get into a car and drive it with the oil light on deserves to be sacked. It's a visual warning. It's an "Oh My God moment". That's not a mistake, it's incompetence. Anyone that backs this failed mechanic is just as bad. If it's the apprentice's job to test drive there is still "no excuse". It is their job to do this basic task correctly. The incompetence leading up to the test drive is inexcusable too.
Yes we make mistakes and they are dealing with it well, but OMG.
AnswerID: 612204

Follow Up By: Bobjl - Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 13:30

Wednesday, Jun 28, 2017 at 13:30
Unfortunately carelessness and mistakes such as in this case are a fact of life and should be forgiven [once at least], however a clear reckless disregard for safety and protection of people and property ought incur some punishment or penalty.

Employment laws do not allow for sacking an individual for a silly/stupid mistake, the employer will likely have to issue a few written warnings and give some remedial training - this the reality of it all.

Perhaps in this case the mechanic [who may have up until now, had a great track record] had something sudden and concerning going on in his life, [wife having an affair, child seriously ill etc] and this contributed to oversight of some very basic checks and balance. It is also possible the mechanic might be better taking a new career.
If in the unlikely event that the business that employs him has systemic issues with the quality of their work and similar stuff ups have occurred previously, then that may be different.

Given the business will incur an excess of at least $500 maybe more, I expect they will establish just what was going on with the mechanics thinking at the time. Happily if during the reinstatement of Bogdans motor, he becomes concerned about materials or workmanship, he can liase with the assessor or the Insurer to ensure best possible outcomes.

If every motor trade employee that I am aware of that made mistakes was sacked and never reemployed in the motor trade industry, we would have a serious shortage of mechanics - my direct experience was thousands of faulty work claims every year - and that just one big insurer.


1
FollowupID: 882383

Reply By: Michael ( Moss Vale NSW) - Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 11:46

Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 11:46
I didnt read every reply, so it may have been mentioned. Just a thought if your clutch is original or old, it maybe a good time for you to supply one to the workshop while its apart so you can save the labour later on. Thats if you still have enough faith in them to install a clutch. Just a thought!
These things can happen, I worked with a guy who drained the sump of his newly reconditioned Valiant slant 6 in the 70s, walked next door to the servo to get some oil. The Valiant was parked in the front yard, his wife jumped into it, took off down the road, he walked out of the servo with a bottle of oil in his hand, only to see his car driving off down the road. A second reconditioning followed soon after. I'm sure your LC it will come back better than ever, the garage owner wont want you coming back with problems from the repair.
regards, Michael.
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AnswerID: 612222

Follow Up By: Ron N - Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 15:53

Thursday, Jun 29, 2017 at 15:53
Michael - And that's the reason why we have lockout tags on machines and vehicles today, in professionally-run operations.

There are some horror stories with fatal results, and deadly near-misses, from unprofessional operations, caused by unknowing operators and drivers starting up equipment and vehicles, when a mechanic or fitter was working on, or under, the equipment or vehicle.

There are serious "mistakes" that happen, when people who are untrained and/or poorly supervised are allowed free rein within mechanical, industrial, or factory operations.

However, a professional repair operation with licenced mechanics, dealing with the public, and involved in caring for and repairing Joe Publics expensive motor vehicles, has a responsibility to ensure that their employees are well-managed, properly supervised, and there are set procedures laid out for every operation and situation - and that those procedures are followed, and supervised by other competent, experienced foreman or leading hands.

I wouldn't like to think what the situation would have been, if the vehicle damaged, had been a $400,000 Ferrari belonging to a Rottweiler lawyer.
The bloke running the repair business would probably have lost both his house and his business, as the lawyer savaged him and took him to the cleaners.

"Duty of care" is a favourite term for lawyers today, and they make millions out of pursuing people who have failed in their "duty of care".
The NSW Fair Trading website lays out clearly, a mechanical repairers obligations to a customer.

NSW Fair Trading - Consumers and Motor Vehicle Repairs and Maintenance

Any work that is not "carried out with due care and skill" leaves the workshop wide open to lawsuits, brought under Section 60 and 61 of the Australian Consumer Law (formerly Section 74 of the Trade Practices Act, 1974. ACL has replaced the TPA).

The suggestion as regards the clutch is a very sound suggestion - and if the repairer is on the ball, he would have already inspected the clutch plate and pressure plate, and given an opinion on whether it was well worth replacing the clutch assembly, while the engine was out.

Cheers, Ron.
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FollowupID: 882418

Reply By: Shaker - Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 08:42

Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 08:42
This is for sale on MySwag:

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FOR SALE - 1HZ rebuild kit, plus other bits & pieces (WA)
« on: April 06, 2017, 01:12:12 PM »
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ITEM: 1HZ Genuine rebuild kit. Includes full gasket kit (these are not supplied with the kit from Toyota), big end & main bearings (20 thou undersize I believe), full set of head bolts, full set of conrod bolts, full set of engine cradle to block bolts, oil pump seal, block to cradle seal.

Also included with this group of pieces are genuine rear wheel bearings (both sides), 2x genuine oil filters, 1x genuine fuel filter, 1x genuine throwout bearing, few body / wheel arch clips, 1x oiled unifilter with a spare new outer sleeve)


CONDITION: Brand new - Genuine Toyota

PRICE AND PRICE CONDITIONS: $600 $525

EXTRA INFO: Part No's:
90915-30002 - Oil Filters
90386-45087 - Wheel bearings
23390-64480 - Fuel Filter
31320-60200 - Throwout bearing
53879-60010 - Fender Liner Retaining Clips
13204-17011 - Conrod bearings
90910-02098 - Bolts (either crankshaft cradle to engine block, or head bolts)
04111-17050 - Engine gasket kit
13265-17010 - Conrod bolts
90119-08182 - Bolts (either crankshaft cradle to engine block, or head bolts)
11497-17010 - Block to head seal
15193-17010 - Oil pump seal

LOCATION: Mandurah, Western Australia. Prefer pickup, however may be able to arrange postage (may cost a bit due to weight).


AnswerID: 612279

Reply By: Michael H9 - Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 09:29

Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 09:29
Fair dinkum, you can make a mistake, do the right thing and still get crucified....because nobody ever makes a mistake, do they? Look at the bright side, your motor with 270k on it is being reconditioned back to near new.
The clues are in. If the guy was shonky, he wouldn't be doing the right thing, and he would have gone broke by now if this sort of mistake was a common occurence for him.

Ps this isn't directed at you bogdan, just some of the other responses.
AnswerID: 612280

Follow Up By: bogdan - Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 19:07

Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 19:07
Point taken.

Owner has a reputable business and is proud of service provided to the community. Employed mechanic made a bad error and missed all the checks, oil level, lit red warning light, rough sounding engine. Some quality assurance processes need to be strengthened in the business to ensure this risk is minimised in the future.

Moving forward, I need to get some comfort as as "non-mechanic" that all the engine damage is firstly identified when the engine is dismantled and secondly that all rectification work (machining, parts, labour, reassembly) is properly carried out to restore the engine to a quality and operational performance before this event. I'll probably struggle to get the comfort that I had before this incident about the rock solid reliability I had on my engine (270k kms of troble-free motoring).

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FollowupID: 882490

Follow Up By: Ron N - Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 22:04

Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 22:04
QUOTE: "Employed mechanic made a bad error and missed all the checks, oil level, lit red warning light, rough sounding engine".

No, he didn't employ a mechanic, the employee didn't make a "bad error" - the clown who failed to reinsert the drain plug, failed to refill the engine with oil - and who then drove around with the oil light glaring, is not a mechanic - he's not even a mechanics shoelace.
He should be removed promptly from any mechanical work, and sent to work chipping mortar off secondhand bricks, such is his mechanical ability.

I trust this bloke was actually just a casual, unqualified, "oil change" hand, employed to just do menial tasks around the shop, and never allowed to touch mechanics tools.

If he has mechanical qualifications, I'd want them re-checked and examined for authenticity.
If he's allowed anywhere near the damaged engine rebuild, and I was the vehicle owner, I'd be screaming for him to kept back 20 metres away from the engine, and not allowed to touch any part of said engine.
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FollowupID: 882499

Reply By: Bobjl - Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 21:31

Sunday, Jul 02, 2017 at 21:31
Bogdan
It seems highly likely that the entire motor would have been compromised/ damaged to some extent. To run without oil until engine seizes would mean temperature high etc and all moving parts have been affected including crankshaft and top end components and the cylinder head.

I will be surprised if the Insurer of the repairer would not agree to an exchange reco motor such as is available from HM Gem Engines. Another option is to rebuild your own motor which may take a little longer, but you retain the original block that came with the vehicle.

Given it was mid late last week when the damaged occurred, the Repairer should have advised Insurer by Wed/Thurs, Insurer would have instructed Repairer to establish the extent of the damage and to quote for what he feels is an appropriate and economical reinstatement method which is fair in the circumstances and giving consideration to age of vehicle etc. Repairer should have prioritised removal and dismantling damaged motor and ascertained reinstatement method.

I would send an email to repairer tomorrow and ask that he advise the repair method proposed and if his Insurers have authorised repairs, I would precede that email by a friendly and good faith call saying simply that as several days have passed you are becoming concerned and need reassurance as to repair methods proposed.
At the end of the day your contract is with the Repairer not the Insurer, but they will listen to your reasonable concerns but hopefully that should not be neccessary.

In the unlikely event that you are not getting satisfaction and you need to engage a legal representative, then the costs start to increase for the Insurer. There are good reasons for Repairer and Insurer to behave fairly so stay calm and go thru the process to learn what is going to happen and when. Upon advise as to reinstatement method you will either be getting what seems right to you or not, if not then seek further support/advise

FYI Any such repair work would have a reasonable warranty period attached. You will also have some legal rights for any future loss if it is directly related to the damage caused by the Repairers original negligence and also the reinstatement of the engine.

Keep the faith, the repairer sounds OK from your advise.

.Bob
AnswerID: 612288

Follow Up By: bogdan - Monday, Jul 03, 2017 at 21:59

Monday, Jul 03, 2017 at 21:59
Hi Bob,

Thanks for the time you have taken in your response to me to outline the repair/insurer process for the handling of these claims.

Regrettably at this time the repairer has communicated to me that he is "not" going to notify his insurer of this incident but instead will fund the reinstatement of the engine from his own business funds.

The repairer has advised me that it is his intention to reinstate the engine by (quote):

"removing the engine from the vehicle, removing the cylinder head for inspection and having the cylinder head and engine block sent away to a reputable machine shop of his choice to be reconditioned. He will provide a lifetime warranty on the work he carries out and the engine reconditioning will have a 12 month & 20,000km parts & labour warranty."

My repairer has not provided any estimation of how much this reconditioning work will cost him to complete (disassemble/rebuild/recon/reassemble).

It seems from your comments that a decision at this time by the repairer to reinstate the engine by reconditioning the cylinder head & block is somewhat premature given that the engine is still in the vehicle, has not been dismantled and no ascertainment of the extent of the damage has been done.

It is clear from the process you have described that it is problematic and unwise to settle on an "appropriate and economical reinstatement method" until the extent of the damage is ascertained.

With the repairer declaring to me that he will not involve his insurance company in the reinstatement of my engine I am very worried that the method he has chosen has more to do about his own budget than reflecting the most "appropriate and economical reinstatement method". Where the repairer is pre-disposed to saving costs by doing a minimum viable repair, this is not a good outcome for me and not one I would necessary face if his insurance company (with deeper pockets) was paying for the reinstatement.

For example, although my repairer describes reconditioning the cylinder head & block there is no mention of replacement of the oil pump (an expensive individual component, Toyota Spare Parts says about $1,600) which is likely to be severely damaged.

In respect of what may be an appropriate and economical reinstatement method my investigations today have established the following alternatives:

- HM Gem exchange reconditioned motor ($6,500), available now Ingleburn,Sydney;
- Wreckers 2nd hand engines (260,000 km $3,950, 135,000 km $4,950)
- Toyota new 1HZ engine ($10,000, 5 day build time in Japan & 25 days ship to Aus)

My vehicle is currently comprehensively insured by NRMA for $23,000, agreed value. Expert Diesel mechanics and Toyota Service Managers have suggested that at 270,000kms, with my vehicle's impeccable service record, my engine is less than 1/3 of its useful life of 600,000kms+.

I have also requested Toyota Spare Parts to produce a trade price itemised listing of Toyota genuine parts for full rebuild/recon of my own engine. Can I insist that the repairer use Toyota genuine parts or can he use after-market components to rebuild my engine as he proposed to do given its age?

I have currently advised the repairer to postpone any work on my vehicle pending my own investigations of what may be the best outcome for me. I have said I will let him know my thoughts sometime this week.

I sense from the conversations I had today with various motor trade persons that there is a legal right of the repairer to rectify the work caused by the negligence of his own employee and that I do not necessary have a right to choose who should complete the work.

I'd be interested in your further comments Bob on the above situation before I crystallise my position and share it with the repairer.

Regards,
Richard
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FollowupID: 882540

Reply By: mountainman - Monday, Jul 03, 2017 at 18:54

Monday, Jul 03, 2017 at 18:54
BOGDAN
please start a new thread
to keep it fresh and short than 80 plus replies to read through
cheers

keep us updated
AnswerID: 612302

Follow Up By: Shaker - Monday, Jul 03, 2017 at 19:52

Monday, Jul 03, 2017 at 19:52
All you need to do is click on "Expand Unread"

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FollowupID: 882527

Follow Up By: Gramps - Monday, Jul 03, 2017 at 23:10

Monday, Jul 03, 2017 at 23:10
Bogdan,

Please keep all details in this thread so we don't have to go looking all over.

Mountainman,
Go to the Forum Index page and select "Search & Options", then go to Auto Expand and select "Un-Read". Then when you select posts it will only open the Un-Read items.

Regards
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FollowupID: 882545

Reply By: Bobjl - Monday, Jul 03, 2017 at 23:03

Monday, Jul 03, 2017 at 23:03
Richard, please email me your contact details and I will talk to you. bob.jackie@bigpond.com
AnswerID: 612311

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