Caravan Tare vs GTM vs Axle Group Rating

Submitted: Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 14:19
ThreadID: 136041 Views:1942 Replies:5 FollowUps:23
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Happy New Year.
Trying to wrap my head around Axle Group Rating
I understand the following
Tare 1952kg
GTM 2120kg
Leaving 168kg to load the van with but with 2 x 95L filled water tanks @ 190kgs would put the van over in weight.
But Axle Group Rating is 2600kg.
Ball weight 130kg
Please help
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Reply By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 15:15

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 15:15
the simple fact is your gross trailer mass is 2120kg and your tare is 1952kg ..... for legal purposes you axle group rating does not matter.

What you have is a caravan like many others that can not be loaded.

BTW have you weighed it ..... so many people have found that what is stamped on the plate only vaguely reflects reality.

You would not be the first person that finds that their van as currently built is over the plated gross mass. Particularly IF water tanks, spare wheels and other stuff has been added.

IF you already own this van, you are realy left with one reasonable option ... that is to have it re-complianced to around 2500kg ..IF you have a vehicle capable of towing it.

168 KG is pretty much an unworkable payload in my opinion ....... our weekly household shopping would weigh more than that :)

cheers

AnswerID: 615850

Follow Up By: Notso - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 15:26

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 15:26
Not quite right, The GTM is the weight sitting on the axles of the van, ATM is the total of the weight sitting on the Axles and the Tow Ball.
So I think what you'll find is that depending on whether the van is single axle or dual your ATM will probably be around 400kgs higher than your Tare.
On the Plate you should have the Ball Weight as well, so a general rule of thumb to get your ATM add the Ball weight to the GTM
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FollowupID: 886955

Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 15:43

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 15:43
Many thanks for the reply.
I'm currently looking for a 17-18ft off road van with ensuite.
Was interested in early model Bushtrackers but they're awfully heavy on the ball as are many others.
Saw the above stated weights advertised for a JB off roader and it didn't make sense to me. Hence the post.
Thanks for your concern too, been reading plenty on overweight vans and ball weights.
Previously owned a kitted 80 Series for serious off roading and remote remote travelling, either RTT or swagging it, always weight conscious.
Now things are a bit more complicated, I now have a 04 TD LC to tow a off road van which is about to be fitted out, LR tank, single rear wheel carrier, draws, steel roof rack & front sport bar. Ill wait till complete then weigh to see how much I have to play with for ball weights (with consideration to all the extra fuel weight etc).
Thanks again,
Steve
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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 15:49

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 15:49
so a general rule of thumb to get your ATM add the Ball weight to the GTM
Not sure you have it right Notso, Im guessing a typo
ATM is always more the GTM.
https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/vsb_01_b.aspx#8


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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 16:01

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 16:01
So my take is as from the following
https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/vsb_01_b.aspx#8
Tare: Empty van meaning no extra's fittings from stock and/or empty tanks (EG: 2000kgs)
GTM: Manufacturers Max load rating.(EG:2400kgs)
ATM: Manufacturers Max load rating plus ball weight.(EG: GTM2400kgs + Ball 200kgs = 2600 kgs)

Want I don't understand is that every vans compliance plate I've looked the numbers never matches up to the ATM.



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Follow Up By: Notso - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 16:24

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 16:24
"On the Plate you should have the Ball Weight as well, so a general rule of thumb to get your ATM add the Ball weight to the GTM."
Nope that is definitely correct

GTM is what is sitting on the axles of the van.
Ball weight is what is sitting on the jockey wheel or the towball.
The ATM is the combination of the Ball Weight and the GTM.
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 17:00

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 17:00
sorry my mistake aggrigate trailer mass (atm) = gross trailer mass
(gtm) + ball weight.

that still only leaves a payload of 300ish kg .... with 190kg in the water tanks that leaves about a slab of beer a bag of spuds and the average womans suit case.

in all seriousness you better be using light weight crockery and aluminium cookwear if you have any hope of putting that over the scales at the rated figures

cheers
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Follow Up By: Notso - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 17:13

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 17:13
Yes, it'd be unusual if the stated Tare Mass was accurate and a trip to the local weighbridge would be an interesting exercise.
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 17:15

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 17:15
I took this up with the dealer for a well known manufacturer, the reply?
“Well don’t fill the water tanks”!

"Jesus loves you"
Nice to hear in church, but not in a Mexican prison!

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Reply By: Shaker - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 17:20

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 17:20
I just noticed the axle rating is 2600kg, the axle rating should be 120% of the ATM, in your case that would be 2700kg.

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Reply By: 9900Eagle - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 17:27

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 17:27
Mate have a look at what your chassis is rated at (it should be on the chassis at the A-frame. If it is around the 2600kg mark it is very easy to get it complianced to that figure by an engineer at a modest cost as long as your tyres are rated too carry the load. It will all depend on the chassis rating.

Friend just got done over by a well known van maker that advertises heavily on adventure shows and no it isn't jayco. The van was well it's plated weight and all he got from them was to bad so sad.
AnswerID: 615861

Reply By: Crusier 91 - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 18:10

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 18:10
OK, so what am I missing here?
JB Offroad Caravan Manufacturer's compliance plate
TARE 1952kg
GTM 2120kg
ATM 2600kg
BALL 130kg
Axle Rating 2600kg

Axle rating should be 120% of ATM.
By law, GTM + Ball = ATM
So the numbers don't add up above.
AnswerID: 615865

Follow Up By: Gramps - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 18:18

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 18:18
Are the figures stamped on the compliance plate or scratched on? Are you certain the GTM reads 2120 and not 2470 ? Easily confused if scratched on.

Regards
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Follow Up By: The Bantam - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 19:25

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 19:25
who says the ATM is 2600?
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 20:00

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 20:00
Cruiser,

I have researched this extensively and can speak with confidence.

The ATM if provided is what the manufacturer says it is. Forget about 120% of whatever. If the ATM is plated at 2600, then that is the max mass of the van standing by itself (ie, wheels and jockey) on a weighbridge and fully loaded.

The GTM is the maximum weight allowed to be carried by the wheels. So move the van forward so the jockey is off the weighbridge and weigh. That figure is not allowed to be above the plated GTM. In your example that is 2120.

Usually, and I emphasise USUALLY, the difference between ATM and GTM is the allowable ballweight- in your example 2600-2120=480.

BUT the ballweight can be limited by the manufacturer of the tow vehicle, or by the manufacturer of the towbar, or by the manufacturer of the van.

In your example the van manufacturer has specified a max ballweight of 130kg - perhaps because of the design of the A frame or whatever.

So to load your van to the max permissible and meet the regulations, you can load it so the weight on the wheels is 2120 AND the towball weight is 130, total 2250.

That is well short of the plated ATM and is an example of the total confusion that surrounds this topic. In many cases it has been shown that the manufacturer doesn't understand the terminology and concepts, and yours appears to such a case.

Now, IF the tare is accurate (you should get the van weighed), then your actual load capacity is 2250 - 1952= 298kg.

Cheers

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Follow Up By: Shaker - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 20:08

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 20:08
You don’t forget it just because you don’t understand it!
The 120% figure is used to calculate the required axle capacity, so on the basis his axle is underrated, simple.

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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 20:22

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 20:22
Fair enough Shaker, I believe you are correct, but isn't that a design issue? Ie, it's not part of the end user's considerations when loading the van, which is why I said forget it.

Cruiser, I wrote the attached for my club. You might find it useful.

Cheers

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Follow Up By: 9900Eagle - Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 04:39

Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 04:39
The ball weight stamped by the manufacturer is the weight on the ball as the van comes out of the factory and has nothing to do with max weight on the ball
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Follow Up By: Notso - Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 10:25

Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 10:25
So according to the figures above to reach the Stated ATM of 2600kg you would need 480kg sitting on the tow ball. eg. 2120 + 480 = 2600.

Don't know many vehicles that will take that.

The compliance plate on mine says:

Tare 1749kg
GTM 3400kg
ATM 2150

Figure that one out?
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 11:55

Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 11:55
A non-compliant compliance plate, Notso :-)

It doesn't make sense, does it?

What is on your rego papers?
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Follow Up By: Notso - Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 12:29

Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 12:29
Only has the Tare I think.
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Reply By: Mikee5 - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 18:59

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 18:59
Sorry to be a pessimist but if you add an extra spare wheel, drawers, full long range tank and ball weight to the Landcruiser you will probably be over GTM of the the vehicle and surely be over the maximum rear axle load of the Landcruiser
AnswerID: 615866

Follow Up By: terryt - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 19:22

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 19:22
I'm looking forward to all the LC owners having conniptions at that comment
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 20:02

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 20:02
Mikee
Motor vehicles don't have a GTM. Did you mean GVM?

But in all aspects you are correct in your caution.
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FollowupID: 886982

Follow Up By: Mikee5 - Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 20:51

Monday, Jan 01, 2018 at 20:51
GVM, sorry my mistake.
Tare LC100: 2352
GVM 3180
Therefore payload = 828kg
Payload includes driver, passengers, fuel, all accessories eg bull bar, extra battery, extra spare wheel plus bracket, roof rack and load, drawers, fridge, and Ballweight.
It sure doesn't go far.
Rear axle max weight 1950kg, front axle max weight 1550.
I own an HZJ105 and have been through this myself, it is a minefield.
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FollowupID: 886986

Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 09:09

Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 09:09
Hi Mikee,
I previously kitted out my 80 Series with paying attention to weights.
As for being over weight on the rear when kitted you have to consider the following.
The rear seats have come out for the draws to go in. The spare wheel underneath will be relocated to the rear single wheel carrier (no steel rear bar). The sub tank is removed and replaced with a 182L tank.
So doing math, yes It will add more weight but but some weight has already been removed for upgrades.
The rear seats way more then the draws. LR tank will add approx 140kgs when full, keeping in mind i ve removed the sub tank which ways approx 48kgs when full, the rear wheel carrier is approx 20kgs. Roof rack and tent is approx 70kgs over rear axle.
04 LC TD Kakadu
Tare: 2477
Kerb: 2655
GVM: 3260
I'm travelling alone.
There wont be a great deal in the hauler as most will be in the van that is if I can find one with a reasonable ball weight.
My last resort will be to removed the rear passenger bench seat and replace with a extension of the rear draws and cage with 100L water bladder if weights permit.
Exciting times and the challenge to get everything done within specs.
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Follow Up By: Crusier 91 - Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 09:58

Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 09:58
Many thanks Mikee,
You've made me redo my calculations and yes i'd be over weight. Just cancelled the roof rack and tent.
You have to love this forum.
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FollowupID: 886994

Follow Up By: The Bantam - Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 13:25

Tuesday, Jan 02, 2018 at 13:25
It is so damn easy to overload these 4wd passenger cars.

some of them have a total payload as shipped of 400Kg ... and the fuel tanks are not full.

so put 4 adults, their swag and a slab of beer in them and you are busted.

Seen so many accounts of 4wd wagons overloaded.

Bullbar, winch, roof rack, rear rack with 2 spares, long range fuel tanks and a set of draws ...... it's already overloaded before there are any bums on seats or gear in it.

cheers
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FollowupID: 887003

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