15 amp to 10 amp cord

I honestly dont see the point in that.
Considering the van could have possibly cost the owner a couple thousand to up to many tens of thousands.
An extra $80 that buys you the proper comnection is ideal so you dont have a insurance clause when your van potentially burns down.
Along with thousands of dollars in contents.

I don't think promoting illegal practices on the forum is very good.

Another forum just booted a gaggle of members for offering similar illegal advice on the same subject.

Count me in then.

But that's illegal isn't it?

No they are not illegal, they are not compliant with the AS whatever and their use in connecting anything to grid power is prohibited via that Australian Standard. Perfectly legal to use them for, say, connecting a generator to a caravan. The reason for the prohibition for connecting to grid power is as described elsewhere but in the example of a 2KVA generator, the generator becomes the inherent current limiting component in the system.

I do wish the experts would stick to offering technical advice and let qualified people like lawyers, to giving legal advice.

Iza

Oh Come on Iza - this is the Exploroz Forum - everyone considers themselves to be an expert on all topics.

"No they are not illegal, they are not compliant with the AS whatever and their use in connecting anything to grid power is prohibited via that Australian Standard. Perfectly legal to use them for, say, connecting a generator to a caravan."

That is.wrong. The standards covering the construction of power cords prohibits constructing power leads with a plug and a socket of different current ratings. Simply having a lead with different plug and socket ratings is committing an offence.

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Yes Peter, I agree with you. Iza is quite wrong.

The construction of mains extension cables is defined under the regulations pertaining to Electrical Appliances and the plug & socket at each end must be of the same specification. It is not lawful to sell non-conforming appliances in Australia and certainly not legal to construct your own.

Iza is also wrong in differentiating between "grid" supply and "generator" supply. The "rules" regarding electrical safety recognise that the hazards of electric shock exist regardless of the source and are defined accordingly.

Iza also needs to be aware that in order to become an "expert" in electrical engineering that it is also a requirement to be adequately familiar with the legal regulations applying to that subject.

For some reason, many people believe that they posses expertise with electrical matters even though they have been neither trained nor tested in those matters. Because they are not fully skilled, they are unable to fully comprehend all aspects and in particular, the safety aspects of electrical devices and installations. It is what they don't know that is the danger. Their tinkering is a risk to themselves and their advice is a risk to others.

Can anyone point to a legal precedence showing where someone has been prosecuted for having a non-compliant cord in their possession? Paid for, Legal advise, tells me there is no such precedence.

So again, would the experts please stick to technical advice and leave the legal stuff to the qualified?

Iza

Iza, no one in this thread mentioned anything about prosecutions in the thread following Reply 5. Alan and I are sticking to the rules and what is taught to tradesmen. We are commenting on engineering rules. The standards do not allow for 240 V power cords with a plug and socket having different current ratings. What you stated above is out of order. The Australian electrical standards have been incorporated into legislation. The legislation includes penalties for kicking over the traces. Just because we can not tell you if and when people have been prosecuted it does not mean that people transgressing the laws can not be prosecuted in the future.

Stop being a sore looser.

Iza...I posses an illegal lead, and while I am an electrical fitter and fully understand that it only powers a battery charger in the van while at home, I do NOT post up and imply it is OK for anyone to own or use one. I may even get off my backside and replace the 10A power point with a 15A one ?
Rule wise AND legally, it is a no no, and you should know that ..

They may be OK to use in some situations. Just do not use them in exposed situations. That includes plugging them into weatherproof power points or where a weatherproof power point would be required if one was being installed.

The adaptors must not be connected to a power lead, they must be plugged into a power point in a protected place. Also they can only be connected to a van with one length of power cord..

If you are connecting to a weatherproof power point you need one of the more expensive weather-resistant (IP55 or better) models. The cheapest I would recommend is Ampfibian RV-PLUS 15A To 10A Caravan Power Adaptor. There is also another at $185 that is also approved for commercial purposes as well as caravan use.

If I was in the same position, I would get the 15A power point too.

The one benefit of the adapters is their portability - you can park up at a relatives place, or Farmer Joe's irrigation bore and still have the use of some power, and your benefactor can be sure you will not damage THEIR electrical equipment.

Dion, please explain how owning an approved IP55 power adaptor "limit what you can do in the caravan." Even if someone owns an adaptor I still recommend having a weatherproof power point installed near where they park their van if possible.

However when you are away from home without an approved adaptor you may limit what you can do in the caravan.

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Perhaps an overview may be helpful to some.

1) Caravans are fitted with multiple 230v power outlets each of which may accomodate appliances rated at up to 10 Amps. Accordingly, it is possible to attempt to draw excessive current and the caravan is fitted with circuit breaker(s) which will limit that current to 15 Amps. The caravan now effectively becomes an 'appliance' that may attempt to draw 15A from its supply source.

2) Because of the above, the caravan input is fitted with 15A rated plugs and cable, and the caravan parks have accomodating 15A power outlets.
Even if, on occasion, you intend to only draw less than the maximum of 15A, say only a few Amps to operate the battery charger or fridge, the possibility exists to draw more and if you connect the van to a 10A power outlet you may overload the outlet and the building cable supplying it. Hence the regulations prohibiting this action.

3) Some may argue that the building cable and circuit breaker are rated at 16 or 20 Amps and therefore capable of supplying the van with 15A. However this makes no regard for other outlets and connected appliances within the building on the same circuit and contributing to the total load. A dedicated 15A rated power outlet has its own exclusive cable and circuit breaker and can support the 15A load.

4) The regulations relating to these electrical installations take into regard the possibilities that may cause damage or injury and are composed accordingly.

5) Modifying or constructing the connecting extension cord to allow the 15A caravan to be connected to a 10A rated power outlet is not lawful. It may not be specifically dangerous if used within limitations but may cause injury or fire if used beyond those limitations, either inadvertently or intentionally.

6) The only lawful and safe arrangement is to connect only to a dedicated 15A power outlet or incorporate a current limiting device such as an "Ampfibian" or similar which effectively makes the van a '10 Amp appliance'.

7) Much the same applies when connecting a portable generator to the caravan's input. If the generator is fitted with 15A rated outlet sockets then there is no problem. If however the generator has only 10A sockets then the correct procedure would be to use current limiting as in 6) above.
Even though the generator is fitted with overload protection the manufacturer may consider that, as its output is limited, there is no reason to create a false impression by using 'oversized' 15A output sockets.

Allan, I am generally in full agreement with your posts on electrical matters but I feel that "you may overload the outlet and the building cable supplying it." is incorrect regarding the cable itself. The role of the final sub-circuit protection device is to protect that very cable to the outlet, and the cable and protection device are selected to achieve that very result.

The limitation is the OUTLET itself, which (GPO aka switched socket outlet) which is rated at 10A. In fact the assumption made by AS3000 and associated standards is that any attached device with a compatible/compliant (and 10A rated) plug will not exceed the rating of the outlet, except under fault conditions.

Ironically, the UK final sub-circuit system is generally a loop, with protection provided AT THE OUTLET ITSELF rather than at the circuit source.

No Zippo, I said.... "the possibility exists to draw more and if you connect the van to a 10A power outlet you may overload the OUTLET and the building CABLE supplying it." I did not say or infer that the overload would be uncontrollably maintained. What I said was absolutely correct. The circuit breaker will ultimately act to remove the overload although the outlet is perhaps at greater risk of permanent damage. Even so, the 10A rated combination power outlets are capable of sustaining significant overload.

Why is the UK system "ironic"? They apply protection within the appliance plug-top in the form of a fuse and is intended only as short-circuit fault protection only. The sub circuit overload protection is still applied at the distribution board. It provides improved discrimination of a fault by having the fuse rated to the appliance rather than to the collective sub circuit demand. It has benefits but also some practical disadvantages.

Nomadic Navara, if you use these devices, you limit the amount of current that you can use in the caravan at once, to 10A or whatever magical figure the device trips at. If using a 15A lead with 15A ends plugged into a 15A outlet, then you can use more appliances at once in the van.
I know radio technicians are used to working in miliamps and anything above a whole amp is foreign, but.....................

Dion, they are not a permanent fixture. You only drag them out when you you encounter a 10 A power point. Every other time you use your 15 A lead without the adaptor. (So much for your snide remarks but it looks like they have come back to bite you.)

Dion, they are not a permanent fixture. You only drag them out when you you encounter a 10 A power point. Every other time you use your 15 A lead without the adaptor. (So much for your snide remarks but it looks like they have come back to bite you.)

So you agree then, that when using these devices, current is limited and the full potential of the caravan can't be utilised?

Our "Milliamp Tramps" gave us the figure of one whole amp, above that, they didn't want to know about it and gave it to the "Kiloamp Champs"

Quote - "So you agree then, that when using these devices, current is limited and the full potential of the caravan can't be utilised?"

Where have I indicated otherwise? That is the whole purpose of the device, to limit the amount of power available when you should not be able to use the full 15 A when it is not available legally.

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Dion,

What are you on about?
Are you just trying to muddy the waters or are you looking for an argument?
You are not making worthwhile contribution to the thread.

Read the original posters query.

He simply wants an adapter to charge his van while at home.
A simple 15a to 10a adapter will do this job admirably.
It is therefore a matter of whether it needs to be weatherproof or not.
Whether the van is under cover, or out in the open.

Folk get caught up in hysterical arguments because they don't confine their replies to what was originally sort.

Sand Man Bill we know what toe OP was asking. We have answered him elsewhere. Go back to the top of this sub-thread and read what the OP of this sub-thread said. We are dealing with him.

If you look down lower you will see where the the OP expressed some concern about the proceedings. I explained to him how these threads work and advised him to just pick out the things that applied to him. I also gave some advice to him regarding to what is required if he wishes to use an adaptor away from home. The original OP thanked me for both followups.

Don't worry yourself. all is good in the garden.

.
No Bill,

Johnnykluger actually asked... "is there a cheaper way of plugging it into the wall"?

There are options and responders addressed those options and limitations. Of course, there were the usual responses questioning the validity of some of the responses, but they are always there looking for an argument. It must create confusing information to the Original Poster.

It may not matter if the van is not under cover, but choice of the Ampfibian is dependent on weather exposure.

Hope that did not come over as "hysterical". lol

Silly old farts duelling at 10 paces.

I think it’s the ExplorOz Hair Splitting team!

I think this site needs a sticky thread titled...


I'M RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG !


First topic could be - Are tyres actually round ??


That should create an argument between a lot of the GOF's on here lol ha ha

And if that doesn't get the argument started, try ..


Should I go left or right of a deep rut ??


Happy and safe travelling


Gazz

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Useful contributions from the Three Stooges! lol

Best I not reply to that Allan


Cheers

Gazz

Allan, you just increased the figure to four!

I inadvertently got tangled up in a discussion like this some time ago and backed off pronto. I have read the preceding reasonably carefully and from a non technical background. Much is made of the possibility of burning your caravan to the ground and not haveing insurance cover. However, from what I can see the danger is to the plug you draw the power from not the van end at all. If I overload a 10 amp circuit in my house I blow a fuse or trip a breaker. Why won't this protection work just because a lead to the van is the cause of overload. I am just trying to get my head around it.

Johnnykluger, most of the discussion is not aimed at you. You are an exemplary example of what everyone should do. I don't know how long you have bee around forums but this is typical of what happens in them. You will often get people making silly or wrong statements or promote actions outside the law. These outside the law and inaccurate things need to be challenged to stop them from being propagated as truth. In turn people who really should not challenge the corrections do pitch in and create statements that should be challenged. The result is a few to many pages of bumph.

John, you just need to pick out the few things that applie to you and are correct and ignore the other 98%. Just hang in there mate.

The house circuit breaker will be 16 or 20 amps, and protects multiple power points each rated at 10 amps.

When you plug a 15 amp appliance into a 10 amp power point, the house circuit breaker won't give a rats rectum until you melt that 10 amp power point and it shorts out.

The ampfibian limits the current fed to the caravan to 10 amps, thus protecting the house power circuitry.

John, I should have included in my my last reply:

For use anywhere including showgrounds and other places where you travel, just select the cheapest model with an IP55 rating. SeeIP Code

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Re: "Johnnykluger" etc............

Peter, I could not have said it better.

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Terry, I think Mountainman was saying that if you were to have an insurance claim, any improper components could jeopardise your claim. I don't think he was scaremongering.

Yes, the most danger is to the overloaded power outlet and that could conceivably start a fire. Also, if the van was drawing the full 15Amp then that may be close to the full capacity of the circuit you are connected to, adding to the other users on that circuit it would maybe trip the breaker at the main board.

As the van is able to draw as much as 15A then it should be on its own 15a circuit or be limited by a Ampfibian or similar to 10A. Has that made it more clear?

I have one but as I have a cover over the van it’s of no use

Put some bright lights on the roof above the solar panel - problem solved!

We park the OKA in the shed that has some polycarbonate sheeting that lets enough light in to keep the solar working enough.
You don't need much....

Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

If the van's 240v charger input is permanently wired up, this may not be so simple.

Plugging into the van's 15a inlet is the easiest solution.
I used to use a 15a to 10a adapter, then wired up a 15a power outlet in the covered carport as the van is usually stored there.

.
Well Peter, the only thing wrong with "having a 10A input plug for the van" is that AS/NZS 3001 stipulates that the supply lead shall have a rating of 15A and the plug and cord extension socket shall have a rating of 15A.
AS/NZS 3001 Scope covers "Vehicles offering accommodation, including caravans, camper vans, motor homes and camper trailers."

15A inlets on caravans have become "standard issue" in the interests of standardisation I guess. But don't shoot me, I didn't make the rules, I'm only the messenger.

I'm not sure who I am replying to. Allanb what you have said doesn't answer the question I asked. From what you and others have said it appears the only danger is non compliance with the regulations ( I bow down to them and would never transgress) No one seems to have explained how it is actually dangerous. Please tell me what could happen in the situation when the house is correctly wired and I inadvertantly draw 15 amps from the 10 amp house outlet

.
Sorry Terry, I'll try and do better.

If you connect a caravan to a 10A power outlet by whatever direct means, then it is possible to place the van's full load of 15A onto that sub circuit. Now in many cases it may handle that load without problem, but as there will be other power outlets also connected to that same sub circuit, then the total load on the circuit may exceed the rating of the protective circuit breaker causing it to trip and so lose power to all connected outlets. It is not dangerous and most unlikely that any harm will come from this (other than maybe losing your freezer contents) but it is not a good practice. Provided that the house installation conforms to the wiring regulations no dangerous event will occur.

If the van is connected to a dedicated 15A outlet then this has its own circuit and its own circuit breaker and can accordingly accomodate the full 15A van load if need be. If the van is connected via a Ampfibian device then that simply provides an additional 10A circuit breaker into the van connection which limits the van demand and only places a 10A load at most onto the outlet to which it is connected. Of course, the van may attempt to draw more than 10A which will trip the Ampfibian breaker to interrupt supply to the van. Management of the van load is required.

So as I have been trying to say from day 1 the risk of a disaster is somewhere between buckleys and none

I don't think 120km/h is particularly dangerous either. But despite that, other than in the NT where signposted, there are laws with which I must comply where I can't exceed 110km/h.

Dion, I don't understand what your comment has to do with the subject of this post.

Macca.

Allan said..............
"Well Peter, the only thing wrong with "having a 10A input plug for the van" is that AS/NZS 3001 stipulates that the supply lead shall have a rating of 15A and the plug and cord extension socket shall have a rating of 15A.
AS/NZS 3001 Scope covers "Vehicles offering accommodation, including caravans, camper vans, motor homes and camper trailers."

15A inlets on caravans have become "standard issue" in the interests of standardisation I guess. But don't shoot me, I didn't make the rules, I'm only the messenger."

I can't find that Allan. Can you point me in the right direction please?
I did find this (out of date) reference, but no mention of 15A Vs 10A inlets there....
https://vicparks.com.au/app/uploads/2016/02/as3001_2001-electrical-installations-relocatable-premises.pdf

Cheers,
Peter

I have never needed for my van or camper or MH to draw 15A. A 10A, properly protected inlet on the van does away with any need for 15 Amp leads or non-compliant cords. A 10 Amp inlet on the van is a better equivalent of the putative Ampfibian because it does away with one more connection.

The rigid adherence to having a van inlet wired for 15A belongs back in the day of the 10 foot Bondwood jobbie spending 4 weeks a year at the seaside caravan park.

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Yes Peter, your copy of AS/NZS 3001 (Dec 2001) is out of date. It was reissued incorporating Amendment No. 1 in June 2012.

Clause 5.1.2(c)(i) now specifies "a cord extension socket... with a minimum rating of 15A".

The original edition of the standard did not specify the current rating of the plugs but referred only to Standards 3120 and 3123 which describe the design and testing of plug and sockets.

I have attached below screen grabs of the sections of both current and old standards .

Makes absolutely no sense to me why 15A should be specified, but thank you.

Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

One reason is a lot of vans have aircon....and a cooktop....and a kettle...and an inverter....and a TV....and a coffee maker etc, etc !!

And lots of houses have 3 phase too, for those bigger loads, but it is not compulsory if you don't need it.

Cheers,
Peter
OKA196motorhome

But it is compulsory, whether you want or need it.

I apologise in advance to the OP for prolonging this discussion but.... is someone able to tell us what legislation refers to the standards mentioned above that make them mandatory?

A standard in itself is not a law. In fact, Standards Australia are a company and not part of government.

Unless I have missed it, those advising that it is illegal to say join two power cords together have referred to the Australian Standard but not the legislation.

I'm not questioning that it is illegal (I don't know), only asking what the name of the relavent law is.

Skull

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Yes Skull, easy one.

The legislation embracing electrical safety is managed at State level. Each State has its own regulations and they each employ the appropriate Australian Standard.

In Queensland it is the "Electrical Safety Regulations 2013" which are contained in the "Electrical Safety Act 2002". Each state has similar Regulations and Acts although there can be differences in detail which requires attention to detail when working in differing states. As far as I am aware, the regulations applying to caravan parks and transportable vehicles (caravans) is the same in each state, using AS/NZS 3001.

As you say, a "Standard" is not law but its publications are frequently used in legislation to apply the "Law".

"Standards Australia" is a Pty Ltd Not-for-Profit enterprise with a Royal Charter.
Their publications are marketed by the division 'SAI Global'.

Thanks Allan,

I’m from Adelaide where all things electrical are either questionable, suspect or too expensive.
:)

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Well Skull, for me it all started in Adelaide long ago when electricians were not even licensed and anyone could perform electrical installations but were required to have the work inspected and approved. Even so, there were Rules, the first Australian electrical standard was published in 1931, so It is even older than me.... just!
By 1950 the "SAA Wiring Rules" as it was called was less than 100 pages, now almost 400, so it requires more attention today!

I find it quite amazing that 240V power, water, gas and other physical things behave differently in each state, such that state-specific regulations are required.

At the risk of being moderated, may I say BULLSHIT!

Another glass of red required :-).

Cheers

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Frank, if someone were to ask each of us, you and I, our determination of a particular matter, its is likely that we would come up with differing responses.

So it is with State administration. They are separate bodies with separate views.

Whilst we have separate states we will have separate views.

We will only ever have uniformity when we have a single nation with single administration.

Then bring it on, Allan.

The states were created in days long gone when long distance travel was onerous and resources such as reticulated electricity, gas and water were barely, if at all, available. If they were, they certainly did not cross state boundaries. What one state did barely, if at all, affected another.

Time for a revolution, I say :-)

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I'm sorry Macca but I was hoping that no-one would refer to that Article. It contains significant errors, but I am not prepared to engage in further argument here. It would only start another bun-fight.
Anyway, they are not errors that would kill anyone. At least, I hope so!

I do have some respect for the author, Collyn Rivers, but his qualifications and experience do not extend to power electrics, even though he writes convincingly on them. Collyn has experience in electronics and journalism, and in later years, in motorhomes but he is not even an electrician. He has success in authoring books on Recreational Vehicles but I found misleading or incorrect expressions in some of them. On one significant matter, my communication to him went unanswered. Caveat emptor!

Now before anyone takes issue with my statement, I will not engage in argument about it other than privately with qualified persons who can appreciate the subject. If Collyn wishes to contact me I will be happy to deal with it.

Hi Allan, thanks for that. If article contains significant errors that could lead to someone being hurt, or being found guilty of committing an offence by following the advice suggested in the article, or contains information that is no longer correct owing to changes in legislation, then perhaps the administrators of this site should take it off the site.

Macca.

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Macca,
I cannot respond to your above "perhaps".

Difficult to challenge such publications. Most, as with those of that author, contain solid disclaimers on the first page!
Although those books were once available on the "EO Shop" website. They are no longer listed.

Allan,

Not disputing whether the books by Collyn Rivers are correct or not as I wouldn't know.

However implying that there is something wrong with the information by stating that the books are no longer listed on the EO shop website is misleading.

The shop site is clearly closing down and as items are sold the total number of listings reduces by one. Currently there are only 24 items left.

Paul

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Paul,

There was no "implication".

Listed, available, catalogued, inventorised, for sale, what is the difference?
My intention was to convey that the product referred to was no longer able to be purchased from this site.

And if you insist on precision, there are in fact still 25 product categories still listed as of a few minutes ago.

I must have viewed your comment differently, sorry.

Anyway your EO shop may have 25, mine still shows 24.

Paul

My screen shows 25 at this time however I will keep a very close eye on it and endeavour to keep members up to date.
Dave.

Beats me

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Aha Paul, I can perceive where the difference is............

In the "Shop" is a Category "ExplorOz Branded Gear". In that category is an Item "Replacement Personal Member Sticker" bringing the total number of Items to 14.
In your view, being a non-member, this item does not appear, bringing the total number to only 13. Hence the difference of 24/25 Total Items.

An example of David's comprehensive programming.
Become a Member and all will be resolved for you. Only $29.95. lol

But we really must end this thread. It has gone way too far long ago.

Does it matter if there is 23 or 24 or 25.

Who gives a toss.

He gave up and hooked up the solar panel..lol

Sorry yes I stopped following have already started charging lol !!

I see the same thing ( people not reading ALL comments) in almost all the various forums, Facebook etc that I subscribe to