Diesel or petrol?

Submitted: Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 05:00
ThreadID: 137528 Views:3720 Replies:14 FollowUps:21
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Hello I have a dilemma I am new to 4wds and Diesel engines in particular
And need some advice I have just purchased a swan outback about a year ago and have been towing with a kluxger since then .but I am now looking for a proper tow vehicle I am looking at a diesel hilux no later than 2015 model,My problem is that since I mainly do the short runs up to the shops and back and school pickups is this going to be a problem in the long run or should I just stick with the petrol model and cop the extra fuel costs I will only use the Ute for towing the van three or four times a year so I’m sot sure if it’s worth it .most of the diesels I have seen for sale are coming up to the 100000 mark so I am worried if this is when the major servicing are required (ie injectors and timing chain) it seems a lot of owners are selling their diesels around this time. The reason I won’t buy a diesel after 2015 is also because of the introduction of the dpf which would make things even more complicated for me your input would be appreciated thank you
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Reply By: Graeme - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 07:02

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 07:02
Johnny, you have answered your own question as you only tow a few times a year your current Kruger is most suitable for the short trips you do for the rest of the year as diesels are better on long runs. You have already pointed out the extra running cost of the diesel and city driving will choke a DPF,not to mention the exhaust gas recirculation which clogs intake manifolds.
Best of luck in navigating this mine field.
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Reply By: swampy - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 09:00

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 09:00
Short runs contaminate oil if petrol or diesel oil .
Timing belts and valve adjustment common to petrol and diesel
At 100,000 all injectors are best serviced

Additional diesel servicing costs are an inlet manifold clean out .
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Follow Up By: Gerard S - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 09:04

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 09:04
Fit a catch can, keep your inlet clean.
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Reply By: Ozi M - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 09:10

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 09:10
I advised my son to buy petrol as he does much the same as you and lives in a city.

I drive diesel but I go walkabout for 8-10 weeks a year all in the country and drive on country roads when home
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Reply By: Athol W1 - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 09:28

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 09:28
All vehicles suffer when used only for short trips, and especially if those short trips are only around town.

ALL vehicles fitted with Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) systems suffer from crud build up in their inlet manifolds, ingesting exhaust gas is not good for any engine, and especially when that hot exhaust gas combines with the small amount of engine oil that is introduced into the inlet manifold from the Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) system (PCV was introduced in the mid/late 1960's on petrol engines and the late 1980's in diesels, EGR 1/7/1976 for petrol and about 2000 for diesel, these systems are not new).

Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF/DPD) are relatively new in Australia, but have been in use in Europe for some time, and it appears that any manufacturer still having issues may not have done sufficient homework, and I have heard of several issues with the Toyota DPF's.

I can only say that the DPD fitted to my Dmax, so far, works without any fuss and apart from watching the gauge on the dash, or watching the Exhaust Gas Temp on my Scangauge, as a driver there is no change in the vehicle's performance or behaviour during the Regen process. This vehicle does everything from the 2km shopping trips to towing my caravan long distances. The first regen occurred in a shopping centre car park whilst the vehicle was parked, not running.

As you mentioned that there are a lot of vehicles for sale around the 100k mark that is probably due to the large number of new vehicles that are sold on some form of lease arrangement, and these leases have a defined expiry date or distance. Provided that these vehicles have received all of the servicing that has been recommended by the vehicle manufacturer then I would consider that they have done not much more than being 'run in', and there should/would be plenty of service life left in them. Whilst there are reports around about some injector issues (Toyota is often mentioned here) this does not appear to be an issue for all makes. There are reports of some Nissan vehicles having timing chain issues, and again these reports are confined to a small number of vehicle models. Vehicles fitted with timing chains generally do not require any regular replacement, unlike those fitted with timing belts which usually require replacement at around 100k to 150k.

I would not hesitate to purchase a late mode vehicle just because they are now fitted with DPF/DPD systems, however do your homework. Some new vehicles are having recalls due to the DPF causing grass fires (Ford and Mazda) as their DPF's are located under floor. I have heard of some Toyota vehicles having similar issues. In the case of the Isuzu (Dmax or Mux) their DPD is fitted directly against the Turbo and up in the engine bay, so away from most 'long grass' issues, this may also be why they do not appear to be having any DPD issues.

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Follow Up By: friar - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 10:38

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 10:38
I have a 2007 D4D,340000Th Kys,21/2 sets of injectors,replaced only 2 under warenty early in it’s life,Ido not know if the EGR has been cleaned when they were replaced,the last set have done about 120th kys,it was commented by Toyota how clean my manifold was,Something I do when the car has not had a highway run for a while is lock it in 2nd gear & drive it around at about 3000 revs for extended periods,keeping to posted speed limits.
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Reply By: CSeaJay - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 10:38

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 10:38
I note that getting away 4 tiems a year is actually quite a lot for many pre retirement folks. Worth it in my books to get something you are comfortable with for towing/camping and live with it inbetween rather than the other way round...
AnswerID: 622498

Reply By: Johnnykluger - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 11:39

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 11:39
I think i will have to be more specific on how short , 1 minute to work ,1 minute to school and shops EVERY day .and since my wife works and the same place that’s 8 times a day every working day .now my petrol cars can handle this no problems I’m not sure about say the diesels though.
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Follow Up By: splits - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 23:24

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 23:24
I think i will have to be more specific on how short , 1 minute to work ,1 minute to school and shops EVERY day .and since my wife works and the same place that’s 8 times a day every working day .now my petrol cars can handle this no problems I’m not sure about say the diesels though

No engine can handle that be it petrol or diesel. I remember being taught at technical college many years ago that 75% of the wear in an engine occurs when it is cold. By the time you get to work, the engine will not even be luke warm. The only parts that will have expanded to their correct size will most likely be the exhaust valves.

If it is possible to walk each day then do it. Both your health and whatever car you have will last a lot longer.
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Reply By: Bill R5 - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 11:47

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 11:47

Would you be interested in purchasing some full stops and paragraphs from me (or somebody else)?

They are really quite cheap and make reading a post, like yours, one heck of a lot easier.

Roachie....Don't follow me....I'm lost!

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Follow Up By: Life Member - Duncan W (WA) - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 11:56

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 11:56
Bill that was unnecessary!
Make sure you give back more than you take

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Follow Up By: RMD - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 12:23

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 12:23
No it isn't unnecessary, having a block of text with no Capitals to begin a sentence and no paragraphs is hard to read. I got the strap for far less while in primary school. After upgrading my performance I was allowed to go to secondary school. Learning is a lifelong experience. Teachers in school would constantly offend the modern folk if they bother to correct them.

The info above equates to half a KM max, and for 8 times a day, a bike is more suitable. That allows for more money for the diesel 4WD of choice to tow with.
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Follow Up By: garrycol - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 12:51

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 12:51
Here we go again, the high and mighty punctuation Nazis are at it again.

Get over it - you can still understand what was said.
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Follow Up By: Bill R5 - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 14:03

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 14:03
To be perfectly honest Garrycol, I didn't even finish reading the whole post....gave up about ½ way through.

It's not about be a punctuation Nazi etc....it is plain good manners. If you want someone to assist you with a problem, does it not make more sense to make their task (ie: of understanding your question in the first place) easier if you annunciate it more clearly?

I'm just a 63 year old retired banker who never got past 4th Form (ie: year 10). However, I still remember what I was taught at school (like mental arithmetic etc too).

I blame much of it on these so called "smart" devices....they may be smart, but they have a nasty tendency to make the user look stupid. I'm unsure whether that is the excuse the OP has in this case.

Roachie....Don't follow me....I'm lost!

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Follow Up By: Leigh H - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 16:28

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 16:28
Hey Roachie. I was fortunate to do the full school thing including university. My career exposed me to tens of thousands of people, a rich mosaic you might say. What I now realise, as your senior by a couple of years (LOL), is that the circumstances of individuals has been shaped substantially by background influences, economic, personal capacity, parents etc. Despite my privilaged background some of the best goals I achieved was in encouraging individuals to acknowledge their "illiteracy" and to then facilitate associated training. My observation was that these individuals generally suffered from low self esteem but it was nevertheless it was rewarding to see their confidence rise as they progressed with developing their reading and writing skills. Their careers also benefitted.
Now I am not saying the poster falls into this category! However, I would suggest it is wise to adopt a less superior stance and perhaps to offer a compassionate response in the light of the deficiencies you have identified. Who knows, the poster may have received a lot of such negative commentary in the past. If that was the case, and if we were to be frank, such criticism would be bordering on bullying. You just never know the background of an individual and what they have suffered. Give him an apology and stand a few feet taller mate!
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Follow Up By: Bill R5 - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 17:23

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 17:23
This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Foul Language Rule .

Forum Moderation Team
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Follow Up By: Leigh H - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 18:15

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 18:15
Hey Roachie, its raining here after a rather hot day, phew! (read btw the lines) I understand your motivation and have no problem with your intent. I know you historically to be a good bloke. Perhaps over a beer we may talk about HR-101 sometime and the various ways to skin a cat without the cat being any the wiser. Cheers for now and Merry Christmas to you and your family.
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Follow Up By: Member - warren G (VIC) - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 19:00

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 19:00
this is why a post can stay on front page for so long now .
some members just cant stop them self from being a critic
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Follow Up By: ModSquad - Saturday, Dec 08, 2018 at 11:20

Saturday, Dec 08, 2018 at 11:20
Here we go with the Punctuation Nazi, Nazi's ..... Bill R5's feedback is courteous and constructive, there are always three sides to the coin.

Play nice now
Moderation is just rules

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Follow Up By: garrycol - Saturday, Dec 08, 2018 at 12:48

Saturday, Dec 08, 2018 at 12:48
And condescending in the extreme.
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Follow Up By: Member - johnat - Wednesday, Dec 12, 2018 at 19:33

Wednesday, Dec 12, 2018 at 19:33
The point being made, however, wasn't about being pedantic, but about being more easily understood.
Especially if you want people to assist you, it makes the flow of the query more easily comprehended if the punctuation is at least fairly standard.

As for the bullying comment, I hear what you're saying, but the post in question was phrased quite nicely - not a demand, rather a suggestion.
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Follow Up By: Ron N - Wednesday, Dec 12, 2018 at 20:55

Wednesday, Dec 12, 2018 at 20:55
You could make it a 24 hrs-a-day, 7-days-a-week, lifetime project, to try and improve punctuation and spelling in forums, and in websites generally.

I can only blame the teachers of the last 30 or 40 years, because I'm sure their standards, related to the teaching of literacy, have declined enormously in that time.

Perhaps we can blame Dr Benjamin Spock and other do-gooders who reckoned you can't keep correcting and punishing children for not getting their writing and comprehension up to speed.

I was taught in the 50's and 60's (in the inkwell era) by teachers who would be classed as tyrants and child abusers today. They ruled with brutality.

I got whacked for getting things wrong, and caned nearly every day for simple transgressions, as in just talking in class.

So perhaps I'm a damaged individual with bitter memories of a childhood where I was treated worse than a wild, uncontrollable animal.

However, all my mates got the same treatment, so I guess we're all in the same boat.

But one thing I can tell you. We can spell, we can write with correct punctuation, verbs, adverbs and nouns - and add up in our heads without referring to a calculator.

We can do that, because we were too frightened of the dreadful consequences of getting it wrong.
Somewhere along the way, things went badly wrong in the education system.

I can tell that, because I see regularly see advertising signs with mis-spelt words, webpages with numerous spelling errors, journalistic articles that lack comprehension - and which obviously haven't even been proof-read.

I can also blame Google and smartphones, that dispense with capitals and punctuation as soon as you type something in.
Put in capitals and punctuation, and they eliminate both, first chance they get!

Or I could simply blame it all on personal laziness and an unwillingness to improve their skills, as they go through life. I think there's a lot of that about today.

Cheers, Ron.
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Follow Up By: Michael H9 - Wednesday, Dec 12, 2018 at 21:18

Wednesday, Dec 12, 2018 at 21:18
I was brought up the same way Ron but I wonder if it's really important. The role of writing is to convey meaning to others and you have to be thick to read something, say the words in your head and not know what is meant. I mean to say, if somebody says verbally, there are too many cold nights, you aren't really concerned how they spelt there, too or nights in their head, you listen with your ears and decipher the meaning according to the context. I hope in the future that English becomes less pedantic and dispenses with the multiple spelling versions of the same sounding words. And this from someone who is very particular in choosing the correct spelling as per the words' context. It was beaten into me as well. :-)
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Follow Up By: Member - johnat - Wednesday, Dec 12, 2018 at 21:20

Wednesday, Dec 12, 2018 at 21:20
Why bother trying to sheet blame home to someone ... far easier to take steps to improve one's performance.
Not expecting people to be perfect, just to be understandable.
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Reply By: KevinE - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 12:00

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 12:00

We have both a diesel dual cab & a petrol 4x4 wagon.

I've owned petrol & diesel dual cab Ute's since 1982.

The Ute is primarily my work car, but has done a few long outback trips - GRR, Savannah Way, Oodnadatta Track, Birdsville Track, Cameron Corner via Tibooburra, Innamincka, Gawler & Flinders Ranges etc.

The petrol 4x4 wagon is immensely nicer to be in while traveling on holiday.

The extra fuel is worth the extra comfort to us, so we have started to take the petrol with us when going away.

We're recently back from a trip Adelaide - Wilcannia - White Cliffs - Wanaaring - Hamilton Gate - Thargo - Windorah - Haddon Cnr - Betoota - Birdsville - Boulia - Jervois - Alice Springs - Adelaide. Towing a camper, with the car fully loaded up, including 2 fridges & a 105ah AGM battery in a box. The fuel usage on the petrol wagon was actually better than it is around town.

We've also taken it up the Binns Track, out along the Mereenie Loop, Flinders Ranges, Plenty Highway, Morgan/Yunta Rd etc.

Our petrol has a timing belt, so the maintenance costs are actually about the same as our diesel Ute, which has timing chains.

Good luck with it! :)
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Follow Up By: CSeaJay - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 21:36

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 21:36
Hi Kevin
You dont mention which petrol and diesel, but I would suggest you probably have the wrong diesel.
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Follow Up By: KevinE - Saturday, Dec 08, 2018 at 08:05

Saturday, Dec 08, 2018 at 08:05
I didn't mention which because there's always people on here who likes to start a brand war, or belittle other peoples stuff.

Why feed the trolls!

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Reply By: Member - McLaren3030 - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 13:35

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 13:35

When you ask a question like this on a forum like this, you are bound to get responses with pros & conns from both sides. As others have pointed out, DPF's are not new. Both Petrol & Diesel engines are fuel injected these days. There are more diesel powered cars getting around in Europe than petrol cars in Australia. Short trips are not good for any engine, petrol or diesel. Diesels are far better & more economical for towing. If you tow three or four times a year, IMHO, a diesel will serve you very well. At the risk of creating a war of words, I dare say that there are more diesel powered vehicles out there with 300,000+ kms. on the clock than petrol powered vehicles.


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Follow Up By: Johnnykluger - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 13:39

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 13:39
Yes Macca I knew there were bound to be people for and against, its a tough decision
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Follow Up By: Member - johnat - Wednesday, Dec 12, 2018 at 19:39

Wednesday, Dec 12, 2018 at 19:39
And, as JK has said ... the very reason he asked is because it is a tough decision.

All he has to do now is work out which answers he accepts ... very good luck with that, mate!
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Reply By: Ron N - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 13:44

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 13:44
Virtually all diesels take a lot longer to warm up, as compared to petrol engines.

This is because of the increased amount of block and head material weight in a diesel engine, and because diesels are more thermally efficient.

A diesel will take around 4-5kms to reach operating temperature on Summer days and up to 8kms in Winter. Petrol engines will reach operating temperature in about half that distance.

Sludge in the engine is the main by-product of cold running. This shows up most visibly, as a thick black gooey deposit inside the rocker cover oil filler hole, and the underside of the oil filler cap.

Sludge is a real engine killer. Below is an ad for a flushing oil for engines - but everything it says about sludge is true. Sludge blocks oil passageways, oil pickup screens, and increases engine wear substantially.

Engine sludge flushing oil

In addition, cold running allows excessive water buildup inside the engine and exhaust system, creating excellent conditions for corrosion to advance rapidly.

You've probably seen hundreds of vehicles with water trickling from the exhaust pipe/s on cold mornings, not long after they have been started.

If the engine and exhaust system don't get run long enough, to get hot enough to burn off that moisture buildup, it stays in the engine and exhaust.

Diesels do best when given constant long runs, and when used for heavy work such as towing.

The few times you use your 'van means that buying a diesel is a waste of money. The advantage of a petrol model is lower purchase cost, and usually much cheaper and more competitive fuel prices in the city.
In contrast, you get slugged for the cost of diesel in the cities.

Cheers, Ron.
AnswerID: 622511

Reply By: swampy - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 18:58

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 18:58
In the early 1980`s
Even petrol passenger cars did have there EGR valves on the factory service schedule .
That was by a jap car maker every 20,000kms . The egr valves burnt out/blocked up and burnt out manifolds .
In the late model cars yep ""they donot need egr servicing ""
Like injectors and manifold clean outs petrol and diesel
AnswerID: 622519

Reply By: 9900Eagle - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 18:58

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 18:58
John, from what you have said, stick with a petrol for what you do. That or start walking the 1 minute and leave the vehicle at home.

I have a petrol and a diesel, the diesel stays put and I usually don't start it unless I am doing at least 40k. We also don't short run our little petrol and just walk if it is practical.

Diesels run cold cost big dollars to repair, petrols run cold cost a lot less. I could go into it but I I don't want to go into all the explain stuff.

AnswerID: 622520

Reply By: Michael H9 - Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 22:58

Friday, Dec 07, 2018 at 22:58
I've found that there isn't much difference between petrol motors of the same size and power. However, I've found a huge difference in diesel motors. Some of them are quiet, smooth and powerful, others are slow, noisy and gutless.
The service requirements for diesels also vary a lot. My diesel injectors haven't been touched in over 300k, where others need to be done every 100k.
Diesels are better if you do high kms because fuel economy becomes a bigger factor, plus they are better if range per tank is important or if you have to carry fuel in jerrys, (safer). Otherwise petrol is a less complicated lower stressed motor that is easier to repair. Fuel quality is also less of an issue with petrol.
AnswerID: 622523

Reply By: Gbc.. - Saturday, Dec 08, 2018 at 07:02

Saturday, Dec 08, 2018 at 07:02
I’d be very comfortable buying a petrol over a diesel in your situation. You already have an idea of fuel usage which isn’t prohibitive, and petrol engines are easier to live with in town. We have gone petrol for the family town car the last two times we have bought, and prior to that I had a new petrol 80 series, 105 series and hilux as I couldn’t make the numbers stack up on diesel. They have been everywhere and the 80 is still in the family with 500km on it and is still within factory compression tolerance. My last 2 utes have been diesel but the good reasons for buying them are getting smaller and a smaller. Emissions laws will kill them off in the very near future.
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