Once Landcruisers and Nissan Patrols were the most popular tow vehicle

Ahhh, yes-Ron, Queen of the vehicle knockers. I expected an essay from you against the Jeep. You didn’t let me down, Ha Ha

Of course the Jeep owners who don't have trouble are happy with them. It is the ones who do have trouble who are less favourable in their replies.
A neighbor of mine bought one, a V8 and had it for 8 months, sometimes it wasn't there. Suddenly he owned a Pajero, I asked him why he changed. His reply was, "I had it for 7 months and only got to drive it for a little over 3 months, the rest of the time it was kept undercover at the dealers".
Sitting in that same dealers foyer and looking at a V8 Dodge Viper I noticed the panels didn't fit, the gaps were all wrong, the mirrors were at different heights, the paint mismatched, the bonnet was very poorly fitting, one headlight protruded out further than the other side. The list went on. This was a new vehicle ready for sale and not driven to even test reliability yet.
Peope who buy them should have gone to Spec Savers.

I dont know if it is relevant but the Viper and V8 Cherokee are made in different state of USA. Viper in Chicago, Cherokee in Illinois.

I thought Chicago the city was in Illinois the state.

The Grand Cherokee is built in Detroit Michigan, Valencia Venezuala and Cairo Egypt. The Cherokee that isn't grand is built in Belvedere Illinois. The Dodge Viper is built in Detroit Michigan.

Come on Ron , show us the statistics , Jeep recalls versus Toyota recalls world wide per 100 , per 1000 ,ect etc ....NOT 1 recall notice for my wifes 05 Jeep ...2 recall notices on my 013 Toyota FJ Cruiser even BEFORE delivery .....

Alloy, the figures speak for themselves, Jeep is the recall Queen.

Jeep recalls - Manufacturer breaks record for annual number of recalls

"Our customer satisfaction has frankly not been where we need it to be, and where the market deserves it to be," (says Mike Manley, CEO of Fiat-Chrysler).

When you have the CEO of the company responding in this manner, to a major downturn in sales, and a high number of dissatisfied owners, then there certainly is problem with Jeep build quality and reliability.

Cheers, Ron.

RonN do you have a reading problem ? The Question was not just the 'pissant' Australian recall for 1 year but over all ...none are so blind that those that will not see ....a hiccup , no different to the mega downturn of Harley Davidson sales / increase of recalls / customer angst when the company was bought out by AMC ...If you look at REAL figures ,Toyota leads the recall count ....you have to take in factors of market share , recalls per 100 / 1000 units is the only way ...Toyota of ALL the main stream manufacturers leads by a mile in 'recalls' per 1000 units ...

Alloy, I don't know where you're getting your figures from, but on a Global sales basis (as both Toyota and Fiat-Chrysler are global operators), F-C come out as having more recalls overall than Toyota, measured between 1985 and 2016.

F-C - 1422 recalls per 1000 vehicles.
Toyota - 1028 recalls per 1000 vehicles.

10 Car Manufacturers with the highest recall rate - and 8 with the lowest recall rate

Cheers, Ron.

Ron, I thoroughly enjoy your consistency in providing evidence to your claims throughout this forum, even more so because you aren’t an arse about it!! Just straight answers with no personal attacks, you don’t bite at the trolls either.

Well done, others on here could learn a lot from your manners and patience...

Cheers Nick

Like I said previously , learn to read ,your bias is amazing as is your 'recall' figures .. big differences in company ownership from the years you 'quote' ....Which when 'adjusted' puts a 'true' jeep at less per than your overated Toyota ..

Here's another Toyota recall right now ...All Toyota Corolla that have just landed Brisbane are subject to a recall for transmission inspection before being released to dealers .....How do I know ? Because I ordered one 8 weeks ago ....but unlike some I'm not totally biased for or against a particular 'brand' ...

Yes Batts I agree.
I wonder why the trend nowadays though seems to be towards smaller tow vehicles.
Oh well just my observation, let’s hope that everyone is caravanning safely and enjoys.

Cruiser,
If you look at the price difference that will be your answer, People are told the smaller lighter cheaper vehicles can tow the same weights or very close to it.
They don't look at the safety factor just the money they think they save

Hi Dave
Your most probably right. The funny thing is that some people spend a fortune on caravans with all the bells and whistles yet skimp on the tow vehicle (the most important thing when it comes to safety)

Very interesting Notso, thanks for sharing your first hand experiences with Jeep.

Yes, well I've gone over to the Dark Side now and have a motorhome so had to sell the Jeep.

Notso - You obviously weren't on Jeeps mailing list, because you missed a fair few recalls with your Grand Cherokee ....

Grand Cherokee recalls

Cheers, Ron.

You have to respect a company that once they recognise a problem they do a recall and set things right.
Not like my Landcruisers, my 40 series, 60 series and 80 series all suffered with leaking radiators that had to be replaced at my cost. Also every one of them had starter motors that failed, two of them refusing to start while miles away from any town and had to be dismantled in the bush.

As I said above. My Jeep 3.00litre Diesel had one recall. The list you refer to contains recalls for a variety of not only Jeep GCs, but Cherokees, and a heap of others. Most of the GC recalls have been for petrol models. You obviously don't know me very well as if you did you'd know I'm fairly meticulous about things like vehicle safety and such like!

So Ron, just as a matter of interest, do you own a LC200?

Notso - Nope, never owned an LC200 and have no desire to own one, as I now have no need of a vehicle that size and cost.
I no longer own any caravan, either. I spent probably a third of my working life living in caravans, and I have no desire to own a caravan in my retirement years!

However, I have owned many Toyotas, starting in 1981 with a HJ60, then progressing to HJ61, HJ75's, HZJ75 utes and troop carriers, a HDJ80 (turbo diesel auto), and numerous Hiluxes.
I've currently got 2 Hiluxes, they are quite adequate for my current (retired needs).
My first 4WD was a 1960, 4 cyl petrol traytop Landrover, purchased in 1967 with 34,000 miles on the clock!
I'm silly enough to actually still own a Series 3, LWB (109) diesel Landrover station wagon, that I'm restoring! I guess it's just to remind me, how good Toyotas are! [;-)

I actually don't own a large current 4WD of any type anymore. If I want to go 4WD'ing in a distant spot, it's cheaper to hire one for the period I want, and then return it - and hand any vehicle problems back to the hirer!
Hiring also enables me to hire a range of brands/models, and get a good feel for the particular vehicle make and model.
The LC200's are very capable and nice to drive - but they do polarise people, particularly as regards their sheer size.
I've actually been impressed by a few of the latest Mitsubishi's recently, even though I'm basically a Toyota man.

Funnily enough, I can find no Australian hire company that owns and rents Jeep Cherokees.
I can find a few Jeep owners hiring their vehicles out, but mostly Wranglers, from what I can see.
I'll wager the hire restrictions on the areas/types of use, for the private Jeeps, are pretty onerous.

Cheers, Ron.

I'm not sure why but most of the other Brand Knockers are Toyota owners. Dunno why it is but it does seem to stand out.

Most, but apparently not all huh?

"I got a notice from Jeep last night about a new recall. Apparently when you install it it increases the fuel consumption by about half, gives it a big baggy backside and reduces the payload."

I've determined over the years that Toyota ownership is a religious experience that turns the owners into Toyota evangelists trying to convert others into the cult. I've tried to steer clear for this reason, I don't trust what must be the brain washing vibes emanating from some secret spot in the car. I've had Nissans, Land Rovers, Jeeps, Mitsubishis, Subarus and Suzuki awd/4wds but never a Toyota. All my cars have been reliable, the only one to leave me stranded was a Suzuki Grand Vitara with a failed petrol pump.

Not only that Michael, you have people on here that freely admit they don’t own a caravan nor go 4 wheel driving but are quick to criticise anyone who doesn’t share their viewpoint.
My post was simply stating that I have seen Ford Rangers then Jeeps becoming popular as tow vehicles. The post degenerated into a Jeep bashing page as often happens here if the post doesn’t appease the armchair critics.

I had a Grand Cherokee for 7 years and 250k kms. It was a diesel and the power and fuel economy beat anything Japanese at the time. I would have bought the new model last year but I dislike the position of the parking brake. The main comfort downfall on the GC is there's not a lot of room for your left foot in the foot well. So Jeep moved the parking brake from hand operated up on the console to foot operated in the foot well. It bumped my shin constantly during the test drive and was a deal breaker for me. A diesel Trailhawk would have suited my usage so well too. Personally I'm fine with people bagging them because it keeps the price lower. We all know about the Toyota tax....

Oooh, I didn't realise Jeep lovers were so touchy when it came to pointing out some basic facts.
Such as Fiat-Chrysler selling over 30,000 vehicles in Australia, in 2014 - then their sales figures slumping to just over 8000 vehicles in 2017??

If a sales slump to a figure of around 26-27% of previous sales levels, happened to any Japanese car manufacturer, the entire board of directors would commit hara-kiri on the spot.

But no-o-o-oo, Fiat-Chrysler still keep plugging away, producing vehicles of dubious build quality and reliability, whilst freely admitting they have a major customer problem.

As far as the "Toyota tax" goes, I love it. There's obviously some faulty logic in the fuzzy thinking of Jeep owners, if they consider that high resale values are a bad thing.

Perhaps we need to go right back to Accounting 101, for you Jeep owners.

When you buy a new vehicle (and hey, I've bought somewhere around 250 of them over nearly 55 years), the resale value and resaleability are a pretty big consideration in the minds of the financiers.

Like, "Jeez, if this thing comes back after 18 mths, will we be be able to quit it? - and how much do we stand to lose on it, if we do have to repo it?"

This resale figure, and vehicle resaleability, affects your financing ability and your vehicle ownership costs, big time. Try getting low-cost finance with a reasonable resale value figure, after 3 years, on a Great Wall.

The financiers will tell you they're dogs, they're worth nothing after 3 years, and they don't want them back! And they will want to add financing costs to cover the risk!
Even Honest Joes Wholesale Used Bombs wouldn't give them a price to take them, if they come back!

The bottom line is, depreciation is the biggest single cost factor in owning a vehicle.
The second biggest factor in vehicle ownership, is whether you can actually sell your used vehicle - or if it lays around for months, with the "For Sale" sign on it, with tyre-kickers offering you a figure of about half what you think it should be worth.

I bought a turbo diesel auto HDJ80 new, it cost me $50,000 - I did 170,000 kliks with it in 3 years - and I sold it within 3 hours of advertising it, for $40,000.
In fact, I was knocking back buyers with a stick - for days afterwards.

You want guess at how much money I pocketed, in the difference in the figures between what I got for it, and what I had to pay out, when I paid the finance out? It was more than what most people earn in 3 mths of hard yakka - and it went straight into my pocket.

I sell all my used Toyotas privately, and I never have a problem selling them within a short time, or getting good money for them.
But I can show you a lot of makes that lie around for months, used, and the sellers have to make some serious price adjustments, to make sure they move them off their hands.

The ultimate Lemon list

And Cruiser 3, I'm sorry you can only rate people on the size and value of the current 4WD and caravan they own.

I guess that means in your opinion, my opinion is worth nothing - even though I was buying and selling and wearing out 4WD's and caravans, from the mid-1960's onwards - and continued to do so, up until just a few short years ago.

In fact, my first caravan was a single-axle 30-foot Modern, purchased in 1967. A monster, in anyone terms, in those days. Then came a wide range of caravans from 18 footers, to several triple-axle 27 foot Viscounts - along with many 4WD's.
But apparently, none of that counts in your opinion, simply because they aren't "currently owned".

Cheers, Ron.

I'm not doubting your figures Ron, they just don't match my experience. I'm not a Jeep lover, I just had a Jeep that I really liked. My son has a Jeep he really likes and its been reliable as well, so it's 2 for 2 in our family. People buy cars due to a lot of different reasons. Reliability is big for many. I can't say I've had an unreliable car since the 70's, so it's almost factor zero for me. Resale value? I wear my cars out and only sell them early if there's some sort of reason to do so. I accept that once I've done up near 400k then most people these days aren't very interested in it. Also, by the time it's at that stage I'm not very interested in keeping it either. Lot's of annoying little things start to wear out due to age and use.
What do I look for in a car? I like cars that catch my eye in a good way. I like cars that are comfortable to sit in. I like cars that have decent performance and fuel economy. It's also nice to have the latest entertainment and safety features. Toyota's have never caught my eye in a good way. I've not found them comfortable. Up until very recently, the performance has been relatively poor in their diesels plus the fuel economy was on the poor side. Until recently, you had to pay an extra arm and leg to get inclusions that are standard in other cars. I find it very telling that Toyota reliability has taken a big hit lately after they have addressed these shortcomings. The latest 2.8 diesel is more powerful and fuel efficient than the previous 3 litre, but seems to be plagued with issues if reading forums means anything at all. If it was in any other brand, the Toyota fan boys would be going to town.
When I need another 4wd, I'll take a Toyota for a run along with any other brand available, and see if it passes muster on any of the factors that are important to me. I'm not any brand's fan boy.

Ah well, I'm hardly a Jeep Lover, just a Jeep defender. I've owned 10 vehicles in my life and no two have been the same brand.

Mini, EJ Holden, VW Passat, Toyota Corona, Volvo, Nissan Patrol, Mitsubishi Triton, Mazda BT50, Jeep GC and Hyundai Kona.

Each one I enjoyed at the time because they matched my needs. I think the Jeep is the only one that has such a vocal opposition group that I've felt the need to defend it's reputation. So, if one needs a vehicle that is powerful, economical, comfortable and very affordable, I feel that the Jeep GC is a great option.

So all you've done Ron is to reaffirm my view that most of the Brand Knockers are Toyota Drivers. (What I am not saying is that most Toyota Drivers are Brand Knockers) And of course it isn't only Jeeps that they target.

So hop off the holier than thou excessively verbose soap box and respect the fact that some people like Toyotas, some like Jeeps and some even like Hyundais.

Totally agree Notso , over the years since my first car in 1970 ,a 67 Holden Torana 1 have had many different 'brands' of vehicle , go through the alphabet from an Alpha to a Valiant to yes even a [ford] Zephyr... and 43 motorcycles from a [Norton] Atlas to a [Russian] Zundap ...with everything in-between ...Bias ? None , each and every one , be it the car - 4x4 or motor cycle it was at the ' time' the love of my life and the 'Best' ..until of course I was seduced by the next on the showroom floor ...

Hi Jarse
Thanks for taking the time to offer such a detailed and first hand description of your experience with Jeep.
I don’t own one and am not thinking of buying one but i have seen a lot towing caravans lately.
In the 80’s it seemed that Landcruisers or Nissan Patrols were the main tow vehicles but now it seems to be a mix of the dual cab utes, together with the Jeep being the preference. Of course there are still Toyota’s but I don’t think they are as popular as they once were.
I guess the same applies to caravans, there are many brands to choose from now.

Hi Tony
Landcruiser traybacks are still very popular as farm vehicles. I see a lot around here. Obviously around the farm or short trips to town they are ideal but for longer trips and non work related these owners have another vehicle.
It’s interesting to see yours and others input as my observations may be completely wrong if we were able to look at actual figures from a national basis. Certainly city ownership would most probably differ from rural. I’m on the major route from Melbourne to Sydney and being a caravanner myself I tend to look at any passing vans and it was that that prompted my original post because I thought I was seeing a change in trends.

They can sell 6500 200 series in 6 months in Australia and barely sell 3500 a year in the US. They sell well over 200,000 Grand Cherokees a year in the US. If the 200 is really as good as they say, and the GC is really as bad as they say, shouldn't the US sales figures be somewhat different? That is a huge disparity.

Hi Michael
Toyota forged a reputation in the very early days and I think it’s still living on that reputation. I have owned one of almost every series and found them good in their day. But now many other manufacturers have entered the marketplace and with that choice consumers are obviously buying all those various brands and finding as I did that Toyota is no better than a lot of the others. My recent Ford Ranger for example performed equally as well as my 100 series cruiser. And even my Mitsubishi Triton proved itself as a great work vehicle (not so good in the towing dept though)
Anyway enough of my ramblings have a great day

.
Michael, maybe just the name... "Grand Cherokee"... does it for the Yanks?

The 200 series doesn't sell in America, because it has a lot of competition in the form of the good 'ol American crew cab pickup, in the form of Ford, Chevy, and Dodge.

In addition, the 200 series has a Japanese-built V8 petrol motor. It might be 5.7L and put out 380HP - but Americans like good 'ol American Iron, V8's.

Fiat-Chrysler has had major success in recent years with Jeep sales, because of two reasons - they marked up the new vehicle selling prices, and then offered huge cash rebates to buyers.

Cash rebates are a big thing in the U.S., and they are a scheme that really sucks the punters in.

The second reason for the "huge sales" levels of Jeeps is something a little more opaque - Fiat-Chrysler are fudging the sales numbers with dodgy sales figures.

It's something you won't hear about very often, because F-C claim their "sales numbers" system isn't dodgy, just different to everyone else.

Just like stats, you can read anything out of the numbers, and F-C always strive to "make the numbers look good".

F-C essentially fudged their sales numbers by moving unsold new cars into "service, rental, and demonstrator" fleets, and thereby claimed they were sold.

They weren't actually sold of course, they were just "moved off the books". When they were eventually sold, they were then marked as being sold as used cars - thus fudging "new car sales" figures.

When automakers lie about sales, you may pay the price

Fiat Chrysler sales streak actually ended in 2013 (2016 article)

Fiat-Chrysler whistleblower claims F-C sales levels were fraudulent

Another little news item you won't hear much about, is that Fiat-Chrysler has its own "Dieselgate".

Yes, just as VW lied and cheated about exhaust emissions and got caught out - so did Fiat-Chrysler.

But Uncle Sam went easy on F-C, as compared to VW, because they don't want to seriously affect a local manufacturer, financially - so they only fined F-C $650M, instead of the $2.8B the Americans fined VW.

Fiat-Chrysler fined $650M over emissions cheat

Cheers, Ron.

Hey Ron, they are not the only carmaker that gets fined and this one was for a problem that was much worse.

Carmaker fined $1.2 billion

Hey Allan, maybe just the brand.... "Toyota", does it for the Aussies?

Ron, I would have thought that the 200 series was in direct competition with the GC, not the pickups. Therefore the GC is in direct competition with those same pickups. It also comes in a big V8 petrol.

I find it interesting that Landcruiser sales were up towards 20,000 a year in the US until 2001 when they dropped to 3000 and have basically stayed there.

The Toyota they do like in the US is the Tundra. They sell almost 200,000 a year, still less than the GC. They don't sell the Hilux in the US, the Tundra is a different car.

Michael, according to the article below, the Landcruiser 200 series in the U.S. is seen as overpriced, outdated in design, lacking in interior room for its size - and most importantly, failing to offer the ruggedness in looks and performance, that the four wheel drivers of the U.S. expect in a 4WD.

In other words, it's seen to have gone soft on 4WD ability, and big on comfort and luxury.
Toyota certainly need to take a long hard look at where the 200 series stands in the U.S. market lineup, and what they need to do, to increase its appeal to U.S. buyers.

Autoblog - Landcruiser on life support?

Cheers, Ron.

Ron, I've always thought the 200 was butt ugly with poor fuel economy. Other than that it's ok. :-)