MPPT <span class="highlight">solar</span> regulators

I've never had anything to do with MPPT regs. so today I was amazed at what I was told by two different people that sell them.
I have 250 w "grid type" panels I want to use as an extra charging system for the 12v system I have in my mobile home. I want to use it on a block of land we have so I can park the vehicle in the shade and use my extra panel/s mounted on a trailer, out in the sun. I'm looking at the Victron 15a/75v unit.
Now, the panels state they have a max power voltage of 34.6v and a max power amps of 7.23A, giving the 250watts. (P=VI). Because I want about 15 amps, I presumed I'd need two of these panels. (All theory)

But what I didn't know is that, when using an MPPT Reg, you divide the watts by the max charge you'd expect the battery to accept when charging. (Say 14v). So 250w divided by 14v = nearly 18 amps! Is this true? So I really only need one panel to get my 15 amps.

I'm presuming that a PWM type reg will only give what the panel suggests; 7 amps. (All round figures).
Thoughts?
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Reply By: Athol W1 - Friday, May 08, 2020 at 20:26

Friday, May 08, 2020 at 20:26
Gerry
A PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) Solar panel controller does NOT give a continuous flow of electrical current once the charging voltage gets to the regulated voltage (generally around 14 volts), and should the conditions not be capable of attaining a panel voltage that is above battery voltage then there is No flow of charging current. Basically these systems are of the cheaper end of the spectrum and work at their best in fixed installations where the panels are set to obtain maximum harvest. As their name suggests they control the battery (charge) voltage by continuously switching the charge current off and on, so when the switch is ON then the battery voltage is the maximum voltage attained at the panel (with the maximum Amps being whatever the panel can attain at that lower voltage), subsequently when the switch is OFF then the panel attains ITS maximum UNLOADED voltage.

A MPPT (Maximum Power Point Tracking) allows the panels to attain the voltage that gives the maximum power output, it will then correct that input voltage to be suitable for the charging of the battery, and in doing so (where the panel voltage is above charge voltage) provide a greater amperage than the panel is producing. On the other hand when the panel is not getting the best of the sun, and may only be producing say12 volts and 5 amps (60watts) then an MPPT system will still charge the battery @ 14 v and around 4.2 Amps. (60 Watts less any internal losses, as nothing is 100% efficient)

This is the reason as to why a MPPT system is far better for use in a caravan, as you can not always orientate the panels for the best solar harvest, as well as the fact that they can make use of a greater part of the day.

I would still be fitting more that the bare necessity in panels due to the fact that you can not ever get the roof mounted panels to continually be directed straight on to the sun, so any panel fitted to the caravan roof will never reach its full potential.

Like all things electrical it is better to have more power available than what is required/expected to be used, the unit that is forming the load determines the final current flow in the system. As the battery nears its full charge then the internal resistance increases to the point where current flow ceases, regardless of the current (Amps) that is available. A battery in a charging system is no different to the 5 watt light that you connect to a battery that is capable of delivering 400 amps, the current flow at 12 volts would only be 0.4 amp.

Even though you intend to fit your panel(s) to a trailer so you can park your vehicle in the shade are you going to be moving this trailer every hour or so, so that you can obtain the best harvest out of your panel(s).

Hope this is of assistance.

Regards
Athol
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Friday, May 08, 2020 at 21:13

Friday, May 08, 2020 at 21:13
Not many MPPT's can step the voltage up, they mostly can only step it down and trade the surplus voltage for current. Most require about 2V -3V higher panel voltage than the battery voltage before they will turn on, so under some circumstances a PWM will supply charge where an MPPT can't.

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Follow Up By: GerryG - Friday, May 08, 2020 at 21:20

Friday, May 08, 2020 at 21:20
Thanks Athol,
I understand and agree with everything you said. I was just surprised the 7 amp delivery from one of my panels can be increased to 17 amps just by using an MPPT reg.
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Follow Up By: RMD - Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 09:53

Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 09:53
Gerry G
Who ever told you 7 amps can be 17 with a different reg doesn't understand much at all. As Athol has mentioned there can be an increase in current above panel output if voltage of panel is held higher and that additional voltage used efficiently within the MPPT to cause a small increase. More than double. NO.
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Follow Up By: Travelling - Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 14:01

Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 14:01
Quote " I was just surprised the 7 amp delivery from one of my panels can be increased to 17 amps just by using an MPPT reg."
I want to buy 20 of those regulators. Where can I buy them?

Not many of the cheap MPPT solar regulators are in fact MPPT, they are switch mode voltage regulator units.
To get into quality MPPT buck boost solar regulators you are looking at big dollars..
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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 15:24

Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 15:24
Travelling,

Do your homework friend, thats exactly what quality MPPT regulators can do. 7 amps @ 36 volts can be converted to 17 amps in a 12 volt system.
I run a 36 volt panel through a Victron reg and always get 2.5 times the current out than is going in at 36 volts.

It pays to know what your talking about before you attempt to make the OP look stupid.
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Follow Up By: GerryG - Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 18:51

Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 18:51
Hi Travelling,
I'm using a Victron 75/15 regulator and I've just ordered one from Stringer Solar for $116 which includes delivery. As the model number suggests it will handle 75 volts input and up to 15 amps input. Victron have a series of regulators available.
There is a fancier unit that costs more as it has blue tooth so you can use your phone but I just want a basic unit,
Gerry
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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 08:47

Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 08:47
Gerry,
Just be careful with the input.
The 15 amp part of the name is output.
The 75/15 will be pushed right to its limit and then some with a 250 watt panel IF the panel ever hits peak operating conditions which is really pretty rare.

My 100ah battery usually is back in float by the time the sun is directly above. The 36 volt panel starts delivering charge in relativly low light conditions compared to the 17 volt panels. For me this is the biggest advantage of the mppt regs, i even run my smaller 17 volt panels in series when I use them, less sun chasing required.
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 10:02

Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 10:02
To clear things up a little, you could have a 1000W of solar connected to the controller if you wish as long as the voltage doesn't exceed 75V. The controller current limits at 15A to protect itself so you will never get more than that out of it but some may wish to have a bigger array to allow for overcast conditions etc.

They don't recommend an array with a short circuit current above 15A as it might damage the unit if the input if the polarity to the input is reversed, this shouldn't happen if one is careful when installing the unit for fixed installation, for portable installations use polarized plugs. If your still worried about this then a seperate diode could be installed for safety.

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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 10:10

Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 10:10
Ahhh,
Thanks for that.
Have never pushed one that hard to find out.
Is that in the specs?
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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 10:28

Wednesday, May 13, 2020 at 10:28
Fom the manual:

"1a) If more PV power is connected, the controller will limit input power. "

"2) A higher short circuit current may damage the controller in case of reverse polarity connection of the PV array."

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Reply By: HKB Electronics - Friday, May 08, 2020 at 21:16

Friday, May 08, 2020 at 21:16
Yes a good MPPT is much more efficient than a PWM, keep in mind though your seldom going to see 250W from your panel, best to work on a lower value for average power output over the day, personally I work on around 50%.

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Follow Up By: GerryG - Friday, May 08, 2020 at 21:25

Friday, May 08, 2020 at 21:25
Thanks HKB, I agree with your observations. I just find it hard to come to grips with the fact that the 7 amp panel can give 17 amps if one uses a MPPT reg. (Using round figures and not taking into account losses)
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Friday, May 08, 2020 at 22:37

Friday, May 08, 2020 at 22:37
Gerry, you've almost given yourself the answer in your opening post.

Your panel is 250 watts. That is the product of its max power voltage of 34.6V and max power current of 7.23 amps. As you identified, 34.6 * 7.23 is close enough to 250 watts.

Assume everything in the system is 100% efficient - solar panel, solar regulator, no cable losses etc.

Your regulator takes the 250 watts of solar input at 34.6 volts and steps it down to the required charging voltage for the battery, in your example 14 volts. With everything at 100% efficiency your battery will get all the power your panel can deliver through the 100% efficient regulator, ie 250 watts. But now the voltage is only 14.

You can manipulate your P=VI formula to give a current if you know power and voltage. The manipulation is:

I=P divided by V (I=P/V)

so

250 watts divided by 14 volts = 17.8 amps.

Voila!

If only everything was 100% efficient. I work on about 70% for the panels and about 95% for a good MPPT, for an overall efficiency of about 66% in good conditions . HKB's 50% is not unrealistic as an average in a portable or RV system.

So using a simple 50% efficiency, the current to the battery from a 250 watt panel would be half the ideal, ie 8.9 amps.

So to get your 15 amps into the battery in real world conditions you'll need more than one panel, or more accurately, more than 250 watts of solar panels.

There are a number of variables you may be able to control to improve efficiency. Good cabling, orienting your panels toward the sun (if portable), keeping panels clean, providing ventilation to the rear of fixed panels are a few.

Cheers
FrankP

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 09:43

Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 09:43
GerryG,

Frank has explained the conversion process but looking at the PWM side might help. A solar panel acts as a constant current source, you have specified the panel has an output of 34.6V and 7.23, if you were to short circuit the solar panels output and measure the current you might get 8A, the current remains more or less the same.

If we connect the panel to a low battery via a PWM controller the panels voltage will be pulled down to battery voltage so we might end up with 12.5V 7.5A out of the panel or around 93W being deliverd to the battery. If you have an MPPT charger it regulates the load on the panel to keep the panel at is maximum power point, the panel voltage will be a lot higher, if we use the 34.6V and 7.23A we now have 250W going into the battery.

The MPPT controller allows the panel operate at a higher voltage where it is most efficient at producing power, the PWM controller simply connects the panel to the battery dragging its ouput voltage down to where it is not very efficient at producing power.

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Reply By: qldcamper - Friday, May 08, 2020 at 22:07

Friday, May 08, 2020 at 22:07
I used a victron 75/15 on a 36 volt 180 watt panel and it was perfectly suited. It started to charge in very low light. A 250 watt panel might be a bit too much for it when it hits max load in max sun.
If you run 2 panels in series use a victron 100/50, just make sure you have enough battery to cope or it will just be wasted.
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Follow Up By: RMD - Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 10:04

Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 10:04
How will it be overloaded? 75v x 15amps or reg capability is 1125watts
34v x 7 amps from the solar panel is way less than that is around 250 watts less than a quarter it seems. so the reg will be quarter loaded with the 250 watt panel not near overloaded at all. Why direct someone to buy/spend far more than he needs?
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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 10:34

Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 10:34
RMD

Just have to disagree dont you.
The regs rating has nothing to do with input current.
A victron 75/15 is rated at 15 amps output , it is what is coming out that counts.
According to your explination at 18 volts input it should be good for over 60 amps, at the OPs 36 volts about 30 amps output, pretty good for a 15 amp regulator.

What field was your formal training, you never have answered that question that i have asked you a few times?



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Follow Up By: ModSquad - Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 10:54

Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 10:54
"What field was your formal training, you never have answered that question that i have asked you a few times?"

Let's nip this in the bud. No slanging match please, readers are fed up with it.
Moderation is just rules

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Follow Up By: RMD - Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 13:52

Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 13:52
The point I was making was that the solar panel is a bit over 7 amps and slightly over half the recommended reg capability. If buying a regulator for that system, buying one much more costly is not going to achieve anything. As QLD also suggested a larger battery may be a good idea. I agree, and think the money would be better spent on a battery rather than on a large regulator for no benefit. So not disagreeing at all.
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Follow Up By: Frank P (NSW) - Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 14:24

Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 14:24
"How will it be overloaded? 75v x 15amps or reg capability is 1125watts"

RMD,

My understanding of the Victron model number there is max PV open circuit voltage is 75 volts and max current output into a 12V system 15 amps.

Victron Link

Cheers

EDIT: I just looked at the link again and it does say max PV short circuit current 15A. But it also says Nominal PV power for a 12V system is 220W. It's a bit confusing, but I don't think Victron intend that you multiply 75 by 15 to get the input power handling capacity.
FrankP

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Follow Up By: HKB Electronics - Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 17:02

Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 17:02
2) A higher short circuit current may damage the controller in case of reverse polarity connection of the PV array.

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Follow Up By: qldcamper - Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 17:02

Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 17:02
Your still not getting it are you RMD.
the 15 amps capacity is its max output. 7 amps input at 36 volts is capable of being 17 + amps output of a decent mppt regulator. I run a 75/15 with a single 36 volt panel and have tested the output many times and it is without fail 2.5 times the input current.

How many times have you tested a victron 75/15 ?

I suggested a 100/50 reg because the OP was intending to use 2 panels and it is widly accepted that connecting them in series is more effecient for a couple of good reasons. Seeing that a 75/15would be struggling to cope with one 250 watt panel two would be out of the question, so dont see how that is wasting money.
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Reply By: Nomadic Navara - Friday, May 08, 2020 at 22:36

Friday, May 08, 2020 at 22:36
Gerry, what you have to understand is that DC-DC chargers, MPPT controllers and transformers all basically do the same thing. They transform electrical power from one voltage/current relationship to another voltage/current relationship.

Transformers are the easiest to understand. They are simple things that will only work with AC power. The input power input will be roughly the same as the out power. I say roughly the same because there is a little bit of power lost in the transformer.) If you you transform the voltage up the resulting output current will be less than the input current. If you transform the voltage down the resulting output current will be larger than the input current. In every case when you multiply the voltage by the current you will have the same power in both the input and output sides (actually a little less in the output if you take the transformer loss into account.)

When it comes to DC power a transformer will not work. In the good old days we used an electric motor driving a generator to convert DC power. They were often called genemotors. These days we use transistors in circuits to do the job. That's where DC-DC devices come in.

We are familiar with DC-DC chargers. There is always some voltage losses in the cables between the tugs alternators and the vans house batteries. The output of the alternator is also often not high enough to charge the battery quickly. That is why we use them to boost the supply voltage to a higher one that will charge the battery. In doing so we need more current to drive the device than it supplies the battery (plus some extra current to drive the chargers workings.) That is the old voltage times current equalling roughly the same power.

The MPPT controller is just another DC-DC charger. In this case, we are transforming the voltage of the solar panel down to the batteries terminal voltage. Again we have the input power equalling the output power (less some to drive the controllers circuitry.) If the output voltage is lower then the output current will be increased to retain the same power figure (again less than 5 to 10% to drive the controller.)

I hope this clears things up for you.
PeterD
Retired radio and electronics technician

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Follow Up By: Gronk - Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 08:25

Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 08:25
And as per Peter's explanation, it shows why you still need decent size wiring, INTO and out of the dc/dc charger or solar controller.
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Reply By: Gliderguider - Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 23:58

Saturday, May 09, 2020 at 23:58
Also beware of the open circuit voltage of the panels. Your 34.6v MPPT voltage will be lower than the open circuit voltage of the panel. It is probably over 40v. This is no problem with the Victron 75/15, but if you added another panel in series, you have an open circuit voltage of over 80v.
The regulator wont like that. Most likely it wont do any damage. It will just shutdown the regulator. Thats one good reason to go for the 100v unit.
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Reply By: GerryG - Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 20:04

Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 20:04
Thanks everyone for your input. One way or another I can see why MPPT Regs are the way to go and more importantly, how they "extract" more power from the sun and deliver it to the battery, which is what I was really asking.
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