Broome is Being Trashed.

The local police find it difficult to control this type of crime. If they apprehend the young thugs the courts will let them off with a slap on the wrists and the ABC and leftie journalists will condemn the police for being heavy-handed with the precious darlings. I grew up as a young bloke in a small country town where my old man gave the police permission to kick my arse if I got up to mischief, and promised to give me another wack when I got home. A bit of old-fashioned discipline and parental control might help solve the problem.

At the aboriginal community my son lived in a judge is flown in once a month to deal with the cases
There is only one cop stationed in town and he was strict in upholding the law, the judge actually had a go at him for bringing so many “ petty” cases to court.
The copper ended up getting bashed up by the locals and had his car burnt out so asked to be transferred back to the big smoke .
They have replaced him with two young officers who basically do nothing, if there is any action required to be taken they call another cop from out of town to come in and do their “ dirty work “

Hi Cuppa your experience, after spending a year in Broome, is different from that of my mate, who lives and runs a business there, full time. He has a good appreciation of the town’s problems. He is hardly a redneck and only reported to me, the facts about the town's 40 odd cars being trashed in a month. He also talked about the town’s excessive burglary problems. He indicated they are under-reported, as politicians and local authorities try to disguise the problem. Hardly overblown as you seem to suggest.

I have a friend living in Broom for more than 10yrs,He also told me more than 18mths ago about the Aboriginal youth problem in the town, can't leave a car in the street over nite and lock the high fenced gate.

Cuppa , you can call it 'racist' all you like , FACTS are that the Broome crime rate , just as it is on the East coast in Townsville /Cairns is 90% committed by young indigenous youth ... the 'excuses' given by the PC brigade are laughable if the situation was not so serious , a persons 'skin' colour is not an 'excuse' for criminal or anti social behaviour ......

Alloy c/t, I would have responded to you privately, as I would to several others, to avoid the thread degenerating into a bickering-fest. Unfortunately there are a number of folk here, like yourself, who appear to prefer to remain relatively anonymous when posting their remarks. I remain open to private messaging, my blog is linked.

Let me set the record straight. I do not consider complaining about youth crime to be racist. I do not make excuses for youth criminality (or indeed any criminality). I do believe that the law of the land should be brought to bear on those who commit crimes. Does that make me Politically Correct? If so then all law abiding citizens could be so categorized! But I think when you use PC, you mean something different......... an accusation of imagined apologism for unacceptable behaviours?

What *is* racist is the using of crimes committed by young aboriginal people as evidence of the 'badness' of Aboriginals. Sometimes it is stated blatantly, along with all sorts of suggestions as to what "THEY' should do about it, or what should happen to 'THEM'. Often it is not so blatant, but inferred in such a way that it can be 'withdrawn if questioned. Either way it is racist. I have no doubt that we would all agree that crime (youth or otherwise) is bad regardless of the criminal's racial background, but white crime does not get the same *quality* of exposure when it occurs, certainly not to result in threads like this on forums. Same deal with black African Australian gangs reporting in Melbourne.

To infer I am a member of a PC brigade is a complete nonsense which says more about you than about me. I doubt I am any more politically correct than you, it is a term used without a great deal of thought these days making it little more than an over-used insult.

I make no excuse whatsoever for criminal behaviours regardless of the story you choose to construct from your reading of my posts.

Bottom line is that my initial response to the OP was one of saying 'There's always more than one side to the story', in the context of a history of discussion about Aboriginal matters inevitably becoming divisive & abusive' on this forum. To be fair to Dennis, the OP, he did not mention that those responsible for the crimes were black kids when he started the thread. I however was acutely aware of the strong online lynch mob mentality I had been exposed to whilst living up there around precisely the same sort of crimes. It didn't help, it made things worse. I am not suggesting that Dennis nor his mate from Broome were or are part of that, but that was what was in my mind - a desire not to see similar repeated here. That's all.

And to the person who elsewhere in this convoluted thread suggested I have some sort of 'vested interest', I have described my 'interest' already .... it is an interest in aboriginal culture & a preference to call out racism when I see it. That's all. If the 'vested interest' comment inferred that I stand to gain in some way for speaking out as I have, it is a laughable insult which can be shoved back up where it came from.

If people keep to civilised discussion and keep racism, aggression and abuse out of it, it will probably survive for quite some time.

Michael H9, To my way of thinking threads about these sort of topics are not likely to be locked "because fact based free speech isn't allowed any more for fear of offending someone somewhere" it is because some folk choose to be either offensive or abusive in their posts, often choosing to attack another poster or responding defensively because they feeling attacked simply because someone expresses a contrary view to their own....... unless (& I most certainly am not suggesting this is the case on Exploroz) the moderators hold a biased view & use their authority to avoid challenge to their bias (I have seen that on other forums in the past).

If we, as adults, can manage to disagree whilst showing respect for those with whom we disagree then we give moderators no reason to lock a thread.

Frank, I agree, but I see all the time on these threads people being called racist because they dare to say something that may be quite factual yet derogatory about a person of one race that maybe would be quite acceptable to say about a person of another race. Being called a racist is quite the insult, yet many on hear can insult other users in that way and get away with it, then the barney starts. The race or sex should be ignored and taken out of the equation, only the actions being commented on should be relevant, because me not being racist, acknowledge that all races and religions can be responsible for every type of good and evil in the world.

If I refer to something as racist it is not name calling. It is not about the person It refers to racism, the behaviour, without making judgement about the person responsible as I believe much racism is ingrained, unconscious & unrecognised. When someone recognises racist behaviour , saying nothing effectively condones the behaviour. In the case of a clear (to me) power imbalance I take the view that there is more harm done for me to say nothing than to say nothing for fear of offending anyone who's behaviour I perceive as racist, particularly as no offence is intended.

Labelling any behaviour as racist is no different to labelling any behaviours as , for example predatory, disrespectful, or thoughtless, but seems to attract a far stronger response. One has to wonder why.

To ignore race or sex in many instances is to turn a blind eye. Although attitudes have changed somewhat toward domestic violence, I suppose there are some who may still condone it. Others , myself included, are crystal clear that it is a topic that cannot be properly considered without reference to the role gender plays in it. If someone posted here advocating wife control or wife beating I expect there may be a few who would respond jokingly, but some would not. Those who said domestic violence was unacceptable I doubt would be seen as treating the person advocating wife beating in a derogatory manner. Racism should be no different.

Michael and others,
It is rare that an opening post or the salient post in a thread is moderated. What usually happens in a moderated thread is that in a contentious subject, invariably someone gets their gander up and gets a bit passionate, someone reacts to that, then it goes from discussion to emotion to anger to aggression to abuse. You can almost predict it.

The Uluru Kata Tjuta thread (140917) was a classic example. A perfectly harmless opening post. Then someone posted an image of an article in the media. A rather demeaning critique of the article's author (and of itself, that's ok) followed which rapidly descended into personal abuse between two who hold differing opinions about the author. At that point the discussion was not about Winshuttle's article, let alone the opening post, it was two people starting to slug it out over points of order that were in their heads and no-one else's. As someone put it, a pi55ing contest.

Hardly riveting stuff.

We have to allow leeway for freedom of expression, but we also have an obligation to the site owners to keep the forum attractive to the target audience - explorers of this continent. Undoubtedly discussion of aboriginal affairs are of interest to EO's readers for it is in First People's regions that many, even most of us, like to travel - especially those who like to go to more remote areas.

In that context the thread was not moderated because of the subject. It was moderated because of the insulting, off-topic biffo that it had descended into. It is at similar points that most contentious threads are moderated. Not because of the subject and "political correctness" so often wrongly ascribed to moderation, but because we wish to maintain civility on the forum and keep it attractive to the target audience according to the site owners' Moderation Rules..

Hope this helps.

Regards

And there are those Cuppa whose thought process can find a perceived racist agenda in any comment or
discussion.
Dave.
Hello B.

"Then someone posted an image of an article in the media. "

Someone???? Someone who should have known the likely outcome of posting that particular article. Hypocrisy much ?

Fair dinkum, what a giggle.

Regards

Posting about the Uluru climb is not harmless, it is political.

a demeaning critique of the article? Please lol. That man is a well known misinformed racist. The article is as offensive as it is inaccurate.

Wow this forum is a great place to be...

Andrew, it might surprise you to know that many people think that every paragraph of your above reply is incorrect according to their view of the circumstances. That's not meant as an insult to you, but simply a fact. Getting hot under the collar is just denying the reality that people have different opinions than you do. And it is very possible that these different opinions are not racially based at all even though you seem to want to assume they are.

The topic at hand is one i am extremely familiar with and well acquainted with the various “views” out there. Maybe google this particular author and see how controversial he is. His views are not based in fact, they are based on a racially motivated agenda that relies on cherry picking. Anyone who is a fan of winschuttle is almost certainly harbouring racist views, not that they will ever acknowledge it.

I'd actually be horrified to find out that I was secretly, even to myself, racist or sexist. I think that your time would be better spent pointing out the facts and the cherry picking instances to refute the article rather than taking the shortcut of assuming anyone who agrees with it is racist and then insulting them by saying so. This is where the dialogue falls down. I've never heard of Winschuttle and Google is quite often just an echo chamber for people's pre-existing views.

Please refer back to my comments in the other thread. this particular person is writing about things he has absolutely no first hand knowledge of, to refute his points would be pointless as people are only interested in documented facts, even if those facts were incorrectly documented in the first place. By the looks of it, explaining anangu’s real beliefs would be a waste of time on here.

And yes most people are unaware of their own cultural or racial basis because it is aligned with our culture here in Australia. White Australia’s are the majority, which mostly renders them unable to see things from anything but a white Australian point of view. Unfortunately things like racial and cultural bias are not well explored in our education system or society for that matter. If these comments offend you then there is a reason

Maybe we should all read Bruce Pasco's Dark Emu. Might give us White Australians a better understanding of Aboriginal history and culture.
Dave.

Probably not. A good understanding of things can’t really be acquired through reading, unfortunately.

An excellent book nonetheless Andrew. However those who prefer to use the likes of Winschuttle to support their views are probably no more likely to accept Pascoe's book than I am to accept Winschuttles. At risk of offending once again it really depends upon which side of the racist/non racist fence one chooses to locate oneself.

For anyone unfamiliar these, although not 'on topic' (about Broome), in a thread which has followed the inevitable discussion about Aboriginal issues & seen the Winschuttle writings presented as 'fact' these two links may prove of interest?

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2020/may/13/its-time-to-embrace-the-history-of-the-country-first-harvest-of-dancing-grass-in-200-years.

https://gippslandia.com.au/articles/seeds-of-change

"An excellent book nonetheless Andrew." Spoken like a true friend of the ABC Cuppa.
Think you might want to open your mind and do some research on Pasco's claim to be of Aboriginal.
Not accepted by most of the Aboriginal community and their not very happy about it.
As for the 2 articles you highlight they where taken apart long ago. Try to keep up with the times. :)
Dave.

I'm uncertain as to why one of my previous links did not work . I'll try again.

LINK

David M, your response tells us something that is obvious, & that is your chosen stance is on the opposite side of the fence to mine.

I of course do not consider that I have a closed mind as you infer. Close to name calling but I can handle that without having a hissy fit which would give moderators a reason to close the thread.

The dates of the articles make them no less interesting, but if you feel that they do I'll certainly listen to your explanation.

As for acceptance or otherwise ..... any writer considered 'polarising' as Pascoe clearly is in a country where talking about human rights is deemed 'political, will have detractors. You cannot be considered 'polarising' without having those against you. And people take sides for many reasons!

It does seem that issues around black human rights are often focussed upon destroying individuals' credibility as opposed to the credibility of what they say.

I consider your use of the word 'most' to be inaccurate & uncharitable.

As for the ABC comment you made, It is difficult to reconcile that with this discussion, so please correct me if I am wrong, but I am guessing that that unlike myself, you are no fan of the ABC?
I assume (again possibly incorrectly) that this was as much a comment about where you choose to stand politically, (which appears to fit with the side of the fence you choose to stand on in regard to aboriginal matters)?

Ah the quagmire of logical fallacies that is peoples opinions on indigenous matters

Even the most cursory checking of Pascoe's Dark Emu shows that his book is a work of fiction.

Geoffrey Blainey seems to think so, too.

Unfortunately we now seem to live in an age where facts do not matter.

My stance Cuppa is to see ATSIS spending it's resources on improving the living conditions of the people out in the communities rather than lawyers and trips to Europe to address the UN. Remember ATSIC ?
Don't consider " closed mind " as name calling but glad to see you handled it without a Hissy fit. :)
And your opinion of the authenticity of Pasco's book. ?
Human rights are Human rights. There's no black in it.
Been a fan of the ABC for many years but they seem to have lost their copy of their Charter. As has the BBC.
Dave
As an aside. I spend a lot of time in WA prospecting and go bush with aboriginal friends. While poring over maps for next days trip these so called " friends" take great pleasure in pointing out good looking prospecting areas with a " but you can't go there, your the wrong colour. "

They’re you’re friends but you don’t respect where they say you can and can’t go on their land and put it down to skin colour? Wow. You must be a great friend

David M, My stance, & it is indeed a stance, a position I choose to take, (& without intending to sound patronising at all, I commend you on recognising that you too choose a stance & thus 'own' what you post) is probably fairly well covered across the numerous posts I have made today. Numerous enough to make it difficult for me to keep up!

Regarding ATSIS I confess to ignorance, but returning to my 'stance' I consider far too much money has been wasted in a variety of misconstrued, misinformed, ignorant & arrogant attempts to sort out the 'aboriginal problem over the years. Most of this has come from all sides of politics with certain things in common. It has been whitefellas telling blackfellas how to be, whilst most often understating the reality behind the advice, which generally was guided by a winning/losing construct with the whitefellas not wanting to give up anything at all if they could help it. It has been successful purely as a result of power imbalance. Within all that there has been many well meaning but essentially misinformed attempts to 'help'.

I can't offer a solution , but I have no doubt that self determination MUST be more than words.

My opinion of Pascoe's book (his name has an e at the end doesn't it?) is that it is probably a mix of genuine history & perhaps some wishful thinking. I'd like to believe that his conclusions are correct. I know that everyone I know personally, including a number of indigenous folk, believe his book to be a good & validating publication. More than anything I see it as an important contradiction to the prevailing white narrative about aboriginal history. Even if it were completely made up, (which I don't think) I believe as a means of challenging the dominant narrative which maintains the unhealthy black/white relationship in Australia it is a good thing.

Human rights are Human rights - yes I agree, but sometimes when people have been abused, stripped of everything which gives their lives meaning, taught that they ae not worthwhile, had their confidence squashed ....... Aboriginals, women ....... they need 'extra' assistance. Affirmative action for women (which some men still whinge about or are scared by) until they find theur feet, & that can take a long time. Unfortunately it often brings accusations of unfair advantage from thos who fail to understand the need.

Being 'the wrong colour' may be the issue. A case of utilising the limited authority they have because they can.

"The only way to cure Broomes problem if there is a large group with plenty of recruits in the pipeline is to get the Elders involved and work with the Police, not against them".

Yes! Which I expect is precisely what is happening, but is is made more difficult by a lynch mob mentality which defines it as a 'black' problem as opposed to a 'problem'.

The minority causing problems for the majority? think that goes both ways mate. Also anyone calling for the elders to get involved clearly doesn’t know much about the current social structure of aboriginal communities

"...anyone calling for the elders to get involved clearly doesn’t know much about the current social structure of aboriginal communities"

So how do I learn more about the current social structure of communities? Are you saying elders are irrelevant?

Go live in one and find out for yourself. Without first hand knowledge, most opinions that people form or hold about aboriginal affairs are founded in ignorance.

Elders aren’t irrelevant, but you are taking about a very large difference in world views and ideals. Much like your Ideals probably differ to your own grandparents.

Andrew - if the only way we can learn about Aboriginal affairs is by living in one of their communities then they are destined to remain misunderstood. Very few "white" people have the opportunity or skills to do so at all and even less the opportunity to stay for a length of time that would enable them to understand the culture well.

They have been living that destiny for a long time. At the mercy of the misinformed majority.

Andrew,
Give some positive information!
How can anyone understand if not educated.
Cheers
Shane

They can’t, that’s the whole point. The cultural and language gap is too big. That’s why things won’t ever really change. You can’t understand someone when you can’t even communicate with them. And the majority (including those who work in remote communities) have made it clear they have no interest in communicating with communities in anything but the language of the oppressor. I only know 3 whitefellas who are fluent in the language where I live. 3!

Then what is the future. You paint an incredibly bleak picture.

Well could teach indigenous languages in school instead of foreign language for starters. People think respect is changing the anthem, but it’s actually just treating people as fellow human beings. Honestly ask yourself, if someone you had to deal with and work with showed absolutely no interested in speaking to you in english (thus getting to know you), would you respect that person?

Andrew,
Do you think the recent singing of the first verse of the national anthem at a sports fixture in an indigenous language is a step forward or mere tokenism? I like to think it is a step forward, but I admit I look through a white fella's lens.

It’s a small step forward on long road. Yes there is a bit of tokenism involved, much like changing Australia Day (which is more likely to happen now)

But ultimately it’s more about addressing the needs of whitefellas. Easing the guilt that society rightly shoulders. I live in a remote indigenous community (I’m not fluent but I can converse) and I would be extremely surprised if there is a single person here who even knows the words to advance Australia fair, let alone gives a shit what’s in it. Actions, not words.

"I like to think it is a step forward, but I admittedly look through a white fella lens."
Well done Frank for apologizing for being white.
Dave.

"Well done Frank for apologizing for being white."

I'm not apologising for being white. I have nothing to apologise for and neither does anyone else born into a particular race or culture. I am simply acknowledging that my view is affected by my culture, heritage and education. As, undoubtedly, is yours.

The conversation in this topic has given me cause to think further about the issues and how I may deal with them. If my post reflects that, then so be it.

Perfect example of the wider problem In the last two posts. Whitefellas will never agree on what the problem or solution is, despite both being entirely constructs of our world views. That disagreement results in a policy stalemate due to democracy

And a perfect example of why I've decided to see you not so much as a bush bashing / roo hunter but as our own resident Greta Thunberg . :)
Dave.

You see me any way you want. Another example of why things never change, can’t tell whitefellas anything

And blackfella’s all think the same do they??

Andrew I am struggling to see how teaching the masses how to speak an indigenous language will help. For a start 99% of the population will not even come in contact with an aboriginal community to use it and even if they do it is like going to France or Germany and fluently communicating after learning it at school here
Living in their community like you do is different of course but for the rest of Australians .......

Well what you're highlighting is more the issue of whether people actually want to change things, and the answer is often no if it requires effort on their part beyond a bit of virtue signaling.

At a minimum staff employed in remote communties should be required to learn language, but they arent and very very few do. This is a big problem and I think can be easily dealt with, if the will is there.

What does being aboriginal have to do with this story?

"There are none so blind as those who will not see".

Please enlighten us Rowdy .

Nick G1, I share your view that it did not create a very attractive impression of the town but I am intrigued as to how you might have explained what you witnessed to yourself. Alcohol abuse is a destroyer of aboriginal families, much as it is for any other families, but with an overlay of disadvantage that many others don't have. Whole generations have been lost to alcohol with huge impacts.

One tiny story I have about the drinkers who do so publicly on that oval in Broome. It gives no answers & makes no suggestions, it is just a story, but a story which helped me to understand that there is so much more behind what the passer by observes. It opened my eyes & my heart.

I first met Rob (not his real name) about 12 years ago. A respected elder & lawman of one of the Broome area clans. I spent a couple of months in his company with him back then, walking country with him & soaking up what he had to teach me, whilst understanding how he too was learning, putting together many of the pieces of a songline lost to a previous generation of alcohol abusers. He knew more of the stories than most, but there were gaps. He was a man capable of surviving long periods alone out in the bush, living off the land with the exception of the bag of tea he always carried with him. I walked, sat & ate with him, joining him in his search, & sharing knowledge & stories. As he gradually allowed me 'in' I felt privileged but came to understand the incredible complexity of knowledge & law passed on through generations. I understood that the more I learned the less I knew. I observed skills one may not think humanly possible. Eyesight keener than I have ever seen picking up on miniscule. Things I was blind to, even when just inches away, until they were pointed out. Over time the trust between us grew. One night, sitting around a camp fire, eating Bluebone caught on a handline off the reef I asked him about the strange gait he developed when very tired. It was a gait I have seen many times in the past in my professional capacity. A high stepping gait common to people who have once been heavy drinkers. An observation possible to make many years after their last drink. "Did you ever drink" I asked him. "Yes" he said, I was a regular down on Male Oval (next to the visitor centre), I used to drink with the old men who would tell me some of the stories. He went on to recount a regular occurrence. Drinking was not just having a social drink, it was getting 'wiped out'. "There was one old fella" he said, "used to fall & injure himself every time he drank ". I looked after him, once he had a bit of grog in him, I used to tie his shoelaces together so's when he stood up he'd just fall down again. Kept him safe from serious injury. That's the story. What I took away from it was that even at the depths that alcohol brings there remained the respect for the elders & the preparedness to care for each other. Somehow this didn't fit with the previous casual observation of public drunkeness, arguments, fights & littering which is what most outsiders notice. That & the fact that here was a survivor of that scene, someone I respected (& still do) as a teacher, a friend & a lawman telling me about drinking & drunkeness, an activity ascribed a very different set of values to how such behaviour is seen within white society. Of note & central importance was the respect which remained for the drinkers in the face of recognition that the drinking itself was not a healthy choice. I was privileged once again to connect with Rob & to spend time on country with him last year.

Cuppa
I would explain it to my self that l would not feel safe or comfortable around drunk aboriginals. I have been called "white shit" and F... off this is "my land". I don't want the agitation so l just leave. I have travelled this country of ours extensively and witnessed drunks of all races and one thing l"ve learn"t is you carn't get logic out of a drunk. I have been thru aboriginal commnities and seen how they live and there not places l would like to spend any time in. I meet a aboriginal elder recently in our travels thru the kimberly. Got to talk a bit to him but as you say it takes time to gain trust in each other to open up to each other. On his recommendation we visited the art and cultural center just out of Derby and had a very good talk to a very informed and helpful young aboriginal woman. We bought 2 books and became a lot more informed. But you have to admit there is no aboriginal in Australia that is living a traditional lifestyle. Living in a community s not a traditional life. I don't know what the answer is but fighting and yelling and geting drunk in towns is not acceptable by any race or colour or creed.

Racism is human nature.
The aboriginal footballer David Wirrpanda says that taxi drivers are racist and won’t pick him up.
I know a bus driver who has been spat on by a group of young aboriginals who wouldn’t pay their fare.
I once worked for a real estate agent who wouldn’t let his houses out to aboriginals.
In our shops groups of aboriginals are followed closely by security or shop owners.
Are these people racist? – yes and there is a reason.

Jacinta Price, a prominent aboriginal activist, says that “I call on Aboriginal people to hold ourselves to account for the part our culture and attitudes play in our communities’ problems"

I believe she is on the right track, until they accept their part in this problem it will never go away.

Interestingly I was speaking with a white fella earlier this year that lives in an aboriginal community and he said he gets discriminated against

Like it or not it is a fact of life the world over that minority groups of whatever persuasion can be treated differently, heck we even do it with what football club you follow

Personally I think to focus on the discrimination aspect is missing the point of the problem , while the focus remains on the PC aspect nothing will be achieved, the problems will remain with or without discrimination

.

Alby, it's even worse for me. I don't follow any football club so I get discrimination from all sides!!!! lol

I hear you Alan , I don’t have a tribe either lol

I’m sure most of the posters here have extensive experience in living in what is basically a foreign country. As a minority with a completely different language and culture which makes little sense to the majority.

As for taking responsibility, absolutely. But whitefellas won’t even let them do that due to the paternalism towards minorities that is so deeply ingrained in our culture.

Andrew sorry but I can’t accept the excuse that they cannot take responsibility and sort out a lot of the issues because of the white fellas.
The assistance is there or would be made available if they were proactive in getting it all together. The Government of the day has always thrown $$ in that direction and keen to sort it out they just don’t know how. You have to take responsibility for your own actions and not be looking elsewhere for excuses all the time.
My young bloke lived in an aboriginal community and has a lot of them as mates and has had the privilege of participating in various cultural events

I also have full blood aboriginal friends and they don’t share the sentiments you talk of but I don’t doubt that many do just the same.

If you look past the colour of their skin I think a lot of the issues they suffer are no different to other sectors of our society
Turning the debate to racism all the time is counterproductive and the real issues get lost in the fodder
I am not saying there isn’t going to be instances of racism but that is not the root of the problem in my opinion

Oh you have full blooded aboriginal friends? Check you.

You're in check Alby...probably better move out of the conversation and not waste any energy typing any responses. I think the answer is to do nothing, stay ignorant and let the misery accumulate. Or you can learn any one of the around 290–363 languages belonging to an estimated 28 language families and isolates, spoken by Aboriginal Australians of mainland Australia and a few nearby islands and type an answer or sing a song in that. Google translate just crapped itself.

An old and poor excuse. There are lots of languages yes, but as they are part of language families as you pointed out, speak one family and you can communicate with any of the other languages, they are more like dialects. It’s really not that hard for each state to pick a few languages to learn. People like you just make excuses though.

"People like you just make excuses though"..... a person could get a bit miffed over that comment. If you're angling to be some sort of ambassador for aboriginal affairs then I reckon you're setting the cause back many years because I haven't read anything useful in any of your posts, only a swag of comments that quite frankly make me cringe. I know there is a problem, and I would support any measures that might bring about a solution to the aboriginal condition. However any dialogue with you involved seems a complete waste of time.

Well, that you can’t see my point.. is kinda my point. Try some different lenses in those glasses.

Also that you use the phrase “aboriginal condition” says a lot about your attitude. Think you will find that most people are actually cringing from your post

Dennis, Jacinta Nampijinpa Price & her mentor - the Liberal party's favourite indigenous figure
Warren Mundine, a political figure who stands for nothing more than Warren Mundine are both divisive figures, both willing to say what they need to say to keep in with the money & the power. Both figures who have many of those they claim to represent contradicting that claim. We don't need to argue about that though, simply I hold a completely opposing view to you. Far from being an admirer I see both of those figures as dangerous & disingenuous.

I do agree with you that truth can be threatening however. It is the reason that threads like this run the risk of becoming emotional & offensive. We must be careful of 'feigned offence' designed to disrupt genuine debate however.

Hi Cuppa
Truth hurts but it must be told.
I not a Liberal supporter, but since you mention her affiliation with that party, what’s it got to do with Price’s attempts to improve her people’s lives?
It would do you good to read about the abuse she suffered as a young girl.
You can't understand someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes.
The following link may help you https://meanjin.com.au/essays/ngajurlangu-me-too/

I love the way Cuppa keeps stirring the pot while telling others to stop stirring the pot. I assume he is a close acquaintance of both Jacinta and Warren

Dennis, I mentioned the Liberal party only because of the association that her mentor has with it. An association I believe to have little to do with ideals or representing the interests of his people in spite of what he professes, but is primarily about lining his own pockets. I don't think he was any different when the leader of the labour party. He has mentored her & I have read those who's lives she wants to 'improve' saying much the same about her. There are grey areas, snippets of truths etc but as I see it she is willing to trade 'culture' for a white version of 'improvement'. Maybe she is genuine & misguided, maybe not, I couldn't say , but I do know that when she tells folk what is good for them without listening to what they have said is important I don't feel it is a good look. That she says what certain sectors of white power broking would like to be able have a black representative saying heightens my suspicion. I will however have a read of the link you posted, and I'll try to read it with an open mind. Having worked with abused & disadvantaged folk during my career I don't neccessarily assume that a tough life breeds integrity. I do worry that her association with the likes of the right wing think tank , the IPA, assists her to form views which take precedence over the needs of those she professes to work on behalf of. You could say my scepticism is high .... but I'll read what she says.

"I love the way Cuppa keeps stirring the pot while telling others to stop stirring the pot".

terryt, always a bit of truth in what most folk have to say, & it is probably true if you think I am getting a litte enjoyment out of contributing to this thread. You are mistaken however in labelling my contribution as stirring. In my book'stirring' is shorthand for sh*t stirring, a negative thing to do just for effect, just to 'wind people up' & to 'get them going'. That is most certainly not what is motivating me.

What is motivating me is having often seen threads on Exploroz about aboriginal issues spiral downwards as someone earlier described it & wanting to have such a thread continue on without the usual falling back on abuse & unpleasantness. I would like to see the thread come to a natural end without the need for moderator intervention. I am not naieve enough to believe that expessing my views will change the mind of any other posters, but I do hope that there may be those who read but don't post who will consider the differing viewpoints & perhaps question their own as a result.

I often think that the abuse in threads such as this is a deliberate means of getting the threads closed just to avoid any possibility of 'defeat'. The reality is there can be no winners & losers if we discuss & in the end agree respectfully to disagree. Modelling such debate is a healthy thing.

Yes I am guilty of passion about the topic of racism & in particular racism against aboriginals in Australia. Yes I am guilty of not wishing to keep quiet when I see others following what i perceive as a white Australian way of being. We've all been around the campfires where the abo jokes are an inevitability, a means of whutefellas joining together at the expense of the 'other'. I speak out in those sitiations just as I have here. carefully in order to avoid a biff on the nose. But it's not stirring. To ascribe negative reasons to my behaviour can be another way to try to silence a 'dissenting voice'.

Hi Cuppa
I appreciate that you help aboriginals
I am not biased against them - they are no better or worse than whites.
In my younger days, I worked in N West towns such as Windham, Meekatharra, Roebourne etc.
I spent a night in the Onslow Jail with a mob of them, fifty-three years ago, for misbehaving after just returning from Vietnam. Our aboriginals made very good soldiers.
I could write a book on these experiences but it’s hardly the place for it in this forum.
I had better stop replying as the bloody thread will go on forever.

Can't be 53 years ago surely. Where the hell did that go. Queensland was not a happy place for our Aboriginal members in 1970. Going to hotel caused major problems.
Dave. Ex Private ( Non Voluntary) Grey 8 Viet

My sincere Apologies to Cuppa for missing the E. Will try harder.

Dennis, I have now read the link you supplied to Jacinta Nampijinpa Price's essay. It is a powerful piece of writing about how women are mistreated in Aboriginal culture & has to be heard & addressed. It gives understanding as to why she may not be popular among those she claims to have the interests of. I remain cautious however about accepting what she has written as being the whole story. From other things I've read about her she appears to see a total move away from traditional culture as the answer but I accept that I may be, like most white folk naieve about this. There are strong women like Aunty Rosalie Kunoth-Monks who I would like to see supporting Jacinta, but haven't. That would certainly add a degree of credibility. I cannot imagine for a moment that Rosalie would go along with anything which perpetuated the sort of abuse that Jacinta describes. There is more to the story about Jacinta I think.

Hi Dave, I’m a Nasho 2RAR Vietnam 67/68.
Aboriginals weren’t conscripted they were volunteers.
They weren’t treated well in WA, in those towns I mentioned it was apartheid.
The outdoor movie theatres were segregated white at the back aboriginals at the front.

Hi Cuppa, yes it's a complex issue, it will take decades to iron itself out.

Cuppa
I too have now read Jacinta's article. I was so moved and discusted that that sort of physical and mental abuse of women is tolerated in the name of "culture". There human rights are being abused. They are citizens of Australia. They should be afforded the same rights as all Australian citizens. If this cancels "culture" then so be it.

Human rights catch 22 I’m afraid.

https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/un-declaration-rights-indigenous-peoples-1

Anyway most contemporary issues are much more closely related to poverty and disenfranchisement that they are to traditional culture.

nick g1, I understand , I was shocked & dismayed by the article too,and I agree that those women have every right not to be subjected to such abuse.

However that said, we must remember how our culture has treated women for centuries. We have been no better.

I hope that we are able to recognise that changing behaviour toward women in our culture is something which needed to happen, & still has a way to go ...... but..... that the changes made & yet to be made have not' 'cancelled our culture'. That would be unthinkable - to turf the baby out with the bath water would leave us all in a far worse position with nothing about the way we live to tell us who we are.

No different in Aboriginal culture. They should fight to make things right, fair & safe, & given the opportunity we should support them in doing so. That may not be an easy ask given the history of black/white relationships in Australia. To talk of 'cancelling' culture can only backfire & create greater risk as it mirrors the history which has brought so many of the problems aboriginal peoples have to live with today.

Anyone that knows anything about the history of Aboriginal culture shouldn't be surprised about Jacinta Nampijinpa Price's essay.

The same could be said for people that claim to have lived in the Communities and not be aware of the problem.

Andrew
Having read most of your link, l understand your Catch 22 comment.
Cuppa
Understand how most cultures have treated women over the yrs but no improvement will occur in aboriginal culture, in my opinion, if that relies on the goodwill of those in charge, which in this case is the aboriginal elders. Absolute power corupts absolutely as has been demonstrated time and time again in history.
They have a vested interest in the Status Quo.
If we, as the members of the concerned citizens of Australia, try to impose or suggest solutions we are seen as "interfering white felles" but we have an opligation under the U N human rights charter, as quoted by Andrew, to look after our citizens human rights. This, l suspect, is the conundrum that the Australian government has been under since we voted,and rightly so, to give aboriginals citizenship.
But can l say that this discusion has been eye opening and educational and conducted in a rational and respectful way. Hope this spirit can be continued in future discutions on other topics on his great forum.
Thank you all.

Hi Guy's, Some great comments in this thread, from my observations I would say IMO Cuppa is bias and has a vested interest some where Iam not saying some of what he said is not fact,( we make jokes about the Irish as well). Jacinta may well have a point trying to change Aboriginal culture, young women and children are raped often in communities and it seems to be excepted, recently a 6yr old girl in a community west of Broome was treated for STD, people who come here from over seas make culture changes, just look at their kids that grow up here after a couple of generations, it takes time but must start some where. It could be the answer not much was worked in the past, The Aboriginal population has had more $ spent on them per head of population then any one , the kids can go to school if they wish most communities have school and equip them self for employment like non Aboriginals do. You never know threads like this may get pollys talking.

Cuppa
Totally agree
Happy New Year to all formites

An excellent post Andrew because it explains the enormous difficulty the two cultures have in understanding the other & goes someway to explaining why our culture needs to change , but by and large we have no idea about how to do that, & find it so much easier to tell others how to be. The dysfunctional face of aboriginal Australia is no surprise in the circumstances, but whilst often the most visible , is not representative. We could all learn so much from each other.

Ok so that all sounds wonderful but what does it actually mean in practical terms?

It means that these issues are a by product of our system. To fix our relationship with indigenous people and fix the land, we would have to change our system and move away from systems that are basically built on colonialism. But good luck selling that to the average voter. These issues are wicked problems, like climate change.. complexity beyond our current understanding

Alby, What specifically sounds wonderful to you?

I suspect that asking here for practical solutions will disappoint you. If they were obvious I doubt this thread would exist.

Best I can offer is to say that if someone were prepared to a) look past the dysfunctional stuff & b) have a view which incorporated genuine & respectful curiosity along with time & a willingness to take on new ways of thinking that they might find themselves being offered 'gifts' they never expected, including the opportunity to give as well as to take.

Sorry if that doesn't give 'concrete' answers. The answer is more about a process which can lead to answers if the participants can engage. This is why the word 'respect' so often figures highly in attaining meaningful interaction. I'd suggest trust is a pretty important 'chaser' to respect.

My point is, you can piece together all this wonderful fluffy words and it sounds great but it doesn’t give anyone a clue as to a direction of a useful outcome .
I am not easily offended but could be by your presumption that there is no respect for the aboriginal people , you could even call that a racist comment.

Typical of these sort of discussions is that everyone is racist, nobody understands the black fella and the only way to fix it is that we all say sorry, get back on the Endeavour and tell captain Cook to take us back to the mother country.

Look at this thread, everyone is being civil and respectful to each other and all you can read is the white fella is doing this wrong and that wrong, all negative comments but never any positive comment of a way forward .

Apologists for the appalling behaviour of the aboriginals who earn that group their bad reputation are so far up themselves that they will never see that each one of us (and them) is responsible for our own behaviour regardless of what 'evils' might have been perpetrated on us in our pasts. Whether that past was last week or a million years ago.

First up I will say that I will make this my last post in this thread, as a few folk have now begun to disrespect each other & this is both disappointing & unproductive.

I would however like to respond to AlbyNSW.

Alby, you asked a question which cannot be answered in the 'practical terms' you requested.

It is obvious throughout this thread that the issues are far to complex to give a simple answer to despite peoples wishes & expectations!

However your remark about 'wonderful fluffy words' does a superb job of ignoring the main gist of the answer I did my best to give you.

That is "The answer is more about a process which can lead to answers if the participants can engage".

Process Alby, process.

Process is something we often take for granted happens, but only because processes have been established within many aspects of our lives, often by our forefathers.

In this instance, a situation between two very different cultures, such a process to aid the understanding of each party by the other has never been established on a sufficiently broad scale, so asking what it might be or what it might look like, which is effectively what you asked .....is not answerable .... yet. We are still hiding behind the hurdles which first need to be overcome to prepare the ground for the needed process.

Sadly it appears that yourself & many others have yet to understand this . I am not trying to be personal about this, but really it is this lack of understanding, not just on your part, but far more widely which prevents any useful process being established & thus the bringing of any resolution into sight.

Instead of demanding answers, or suggesting premature 'practical solutions' (as have occurred & failed many times over many decades) if you, or anyone else truly want to reach 'practical solutions' which will work, the very best you can do is to look to yourself & ask "What do I need to change about me to best assist the process". For many it is easier to simply continue to point fingers, ensuring of course that nothing changes & 'the problems' remain located not with oneself but with the 'other'.

I assure you that any time you wish to shift position & take a seat on the fence, those on the other side will be very welcoming.

Over & out.

Exactly what did the British bring to Australia?

And my last words. What a load of Twaddle.
Dave.

Thanks for the response Cuppa but the way I see it the type of response you have given is part of the problem
You can’t expect change for the better when nobody knows what better is.
If all us ignorant white fellas don’t know then surely some of you guys who continue to tell us that and have had the benefit of living in these communities and understand them should be able to provide some direction to the clueless masses who are quite willing to know the way.


For me on a personal note as you say, I am not sure what it is I am expected to do, I have no beef with the aboriginal people, I have a number of them as friends, my son lives with them by choice. I am not on any side of the fence, didn’t even know there was one.

Alby I could spend forever explaining things about where I am to you, but at the end of the day they would not mean too much to you because you don't know the environment or the context in which the information is based. That is what I was saying about the ecology. Most indigenous customs are based on things that were witnessed in the natural world, often things that are now gone.

The cultural, language and remoteness are just so great to overcome, there is no magic bullet. As I have mentioned, one big thing that could be done is people who engage with these communities learn to communicate with them. There is a fundamental shortage of good staff for these regions and positions, because they are hard, and people often have closed minds.

Yes, I agree with you that not everything is whitefellas fault, remote communities have a lot of responsibility to take in certain areas. But you must look at the power imbalance, we are talking 10'000s of people living in remote community’s vs Millions of people living on the coast. The burden for change lies with the majority, that is how it works for everything. There is also the issue of indigenous people being stripped of any agency whatsoever, making internal change virtually impossible.

People also need to understand that the "aboriginal problem" (or whatever distasteful term people want to use to de-humanise them) is mainly a problem from the dominant cultures point of view. Remote communities do not necessarily agree, and why should they? In their minds they have never ceded sovereignty, so why should they be dictated to by whitefellas? Everything to do with indigenous affairs hangs on the premiss that our way is the correct way. There are a lot of things taking shape in our society that are unsettling and I doubt many would deny this. There is value in indigenous culture and society that would be beneficial to our own society, land management is the most obivious example. People just need to open their minds a bit and learn to listed. Few whitefellas will ever appreciate how dominating our culture is, despite the fact that we basically took over a large proportion of this planet, uninvited. And no i dont expect people to apologise for being a whitefella, things in the past our beyond our control, its what we do today and tomorrow based on our mistakes.

This topic is so complex, no forum posts are going to bring any clarity to it.

George’s video got me thinking

I wonder what would have happened to this country and it’s inhabitants if the Viking’s or someone like that had invaded?
Lot’s of countries etc have been fought over and some not given back etc etc.
Just something to think about!

or the French, or Belgians..

Yes the argument can be made that maybe we weren't as bad as others, but this is meaningless and changes nothing. A false justification

It’s a 200-year-old clash of cultures - it will still be going on in another 200 years.

What's your solution? Map it out.

There are 31 entries in the White Pages of people with the surname "Coon". Do they now have to change their names?

What about the 165 entries for "Kuhn" ?

Regards

.
"Politically Correct" changes will never solve the problem of racial discrimination. It is 'how we treat' rather than 'what we say' to fellow humans that is significant.

Wikipedia tells us that "Coon cheese is named after the American Edward William Coon (1871–1934) of Philadelphia, who patented a method subsequently known as the Cooning process". The contemptuous term applied to American Negroes relates to the racoon animal.

Allan B,

I'd steer well clear of using Wikipedia as any sort of credible reference. It seems most of the story behind the Coon cheese naming has been debunked - if you can believe those stories though LOL

Regards

.
So Gramps, where did the name of Coon cheese come from? It doesn't appear to have any relationship to Afro-Americans.

Besides, the owner of the manufacturing company concurs with Wikipedia. Google it.

Allan B,

As I said above, it depends on whose viewpoint you prefer. Like you, I consider it PC bullsh-- but from the activist himself "Coon cheese history"

A bit more

Regards

There is a town in Qld called Gin Gin.
We have small town north of Perth named Gingin.
A local distiller is now producing Gin named Gingin Gin.
Wait until the cancel culture mob and the recently woke people wake up to this.

.
Thanks for that link Gramps. It went all aver the place citing derogatory uses of the word "Coon" but no explanation of why, other than E.W. Coon of Philadelphia, was the reason for naming the cheese "Coon".
I mean, it has a yellowish 'cheesy' colour and no relationship to anything else as far as I can discern. So why WAS it called Coon cheese?
I mean, you don't develop a product for sale and then name it in an offensive way unless you wish to go broke, do you?
I don't care one way nor the other about a product that has no appeal but I do care about the lip service to political correctiveness and the pretence of caring that many activists display. Some people would do better to open their purse rather than their mouth. I do, but you won't read about it on social media!

Allan B,

"I mean, you don't develop a product for sale and then name it in an offensive way unless you wish to go broke, do you?"

Ahhh but you're attributing today's sensitivities to something named in the 1930's. Very few "whites" would have considered it offensive at the time. Hagan asserts elsewhere that it used to be wrapped in black.

Enough now before I incur the wrath of those whose name we cannot speak.

Regards

....
OK

I suppose they'll have to rename Maine Coon cats as well. I was also waiting for Australian people named Miles having to change their name to Kilometres, such is the world.

https://northcoastvoices.blogspot.com/2008/09/lord-luv-duck-coon-cheese-is-under.html

This post has been read by the moderation team and has been moderated due to a breach of The Double-up Post Removed Rule .

Forum Moderation Team

And now you wish to devolve it further with a second hijack into a third topic?

We moderate against the Rules, none of which were broken. We received no complaints or Moderator Alerts - see Moderation Policy here.

Unlike some other site owners who may like to strictly control their forums, the owners of this site prefer to apply a lighter hand and allow the conversation to drift back and forth, as it would around a camp fire.

We have reviewed the Reply and subsequent Follow-ups concerning the change of name of a cheese brand. There is no racism or racist discussion there, just some points made about historical accuracy and political correctness.

Regards

The ModSquad