Live axles v's IFS

Submitted: Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 18:52
ThreadID: 14229 Views:6032 Replies:10 FollowUps:15
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A mate and I recently went to Landcruiser park with him driving a 3lt Patrol and myself in a 4.2lt patrol. We were following a top of the range 4.2 t Landcruiser with all the bells and whistles and a V8 Lexus once again with all the bells and whistles.

There was a little rain on the day so tracks were a little greasy but I do take my hat off to these guys for having a go with such expensive rigs. Track was a fair incline greasy and rutted. Lexus with traction control took 3 go's at the first hill and finally got up after giving it his all. Landcruiser took 5 goes and had to be snatched up by Lexus. Heard them say on UHF radio "those 2 Nissan's will never make it up that".

I went first and made it up first attempt. Mate made it first attempt as well. Jumped on UHF and replied look in your rear view mirror boys. LOL

Next hill same deal but Landcruiser and Lexus couldn't make it up and opted for the easy track with the 2 Nissans passing them doing the hard track.

Got to the next heavily rutted section and once again the 2 Nissans went through with ease. LC and Lexus tried and it was interesting to watch the Lexus traction control working over time all to no avail. Neither one made it once again and reverted to the easy track.

Funniest thing was the comment on the UHF from LC to Lexus "We should have bought Nissans" LOL.

I will be sticking with my live axle thanks
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Reply By: Goran - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:02

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:02
The only ones glorifying independant suspension are poor buggers that own this soft so called 4WD vehicles. True off road vehicles are live axle equiped. Same goes for traction control over lockers. Give me a locker any day.
AnswerID: 65689

Follow Up By: Wil - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 20:01

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 20:01
Well said Goran!
Who wants to spend all the money and have "limitations" and watch the live axles guys go all over the place.. :)
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Follow Up By: GO_OFFROAD - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 21:14

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 21:14
What do they say,
believe half of what you see,
and a third of what you read ;-)
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Reply By: Mrs Diamond - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:03

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:03
what a bleep ar.
what tracks are you talking about.
we were there not that long ago.
glad they didnt have to get landcruiser parks nissans to tow them out lol
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Reply By: floyd - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:12

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:12
What is the purpose of this post? Are you trying to be smart? It is a pretty meaningless one.

Did the first vehicles clear the top surface of mud away so as you two could get traction in the drier ground? What tyres were each of you running? What was the tread wear like on all vehicles? What were the skills of each driver?

Befor you go Na Na NANANA to IFS owners maybe you should provide us with all of the facts.

How many late model Nissans have blown engines up in the last 5 years? Heaps. Checkout the Nissan problems in this and other posts and you may not feel so smart.
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Follow Up By: steve - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:17

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:17
Tyres would make a bigger difference than any other factor, including suspension. A Prado with MT's will out do a Patrol with HT's every time even though the Nissan has far better suspension.

Steve.
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Follow Up By: Jimbo - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:44

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:44
I thought it was a pretty good report, simpply stated the facts and told us what we already knew; in the real hard stuff IFS doesn't mix it with beam axles (note I own an IFS vehicle, understand its limlitaions and love it).

Floyd you have some relevant points, but all things being equal, beam axles bog all over IFS in the serious stuff. Given that the "serious stuff" equals a minute portion of my vehicular travel, I tolerate the the limitations of my Terracan because it suits my needs as fine mode of transport in a variety of conditions.

Floyd I am taking a wild guess here but my Tarot Cards LOL tell me that you are a Toyota owner. Brand loyalty is not important in the big scheme of life.

Jim.
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie SA- Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:58

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:58
Floyd.....

You asked...."What is the purpose of this post? Are you trying to be smart? It is a pretty meaningless one. "

I think you need to refer to a vibrant discussion (polite speak for "argument") a few days or a week ago.

Somebody was stating that IFS was the ducks guts and who needed live axles anyway......or words to that effect.

Well mate, this story is the sort of anecdotal evidence that proves the value of live axles. I have had a similar story when i did a Cape York trip in 2002; but it related to tyre choices and diff lock on the front of my Patrol. You are quite correct when you talk about tyres being a factor. The initial post here does not mention such things, unfortunately.
However, assuming (and it's a big assumption , i know) all things were equal, it seems to bear out the argument that live axles are "better" than ifs in these sorts of situations. You would have thought, for example, that the blokes in the LC or Lexus, would have said something to each other over the radio like....."oh those bloody Nissans have got Centipedes" (or whatever) if that was the case and they could justify within their own minds why their expensive cars could not match the Nissan trucks' performance/s.
Just my 2 cents worth.........I love my live axles, my front airlocker and my ultra-dependable Nissan LSD.....

Cheers mate


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Follow Up By: Mrs Diamond - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 21:39

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 21:39
floydy.
bye the looks of your rude response one would think you would be the owner of a useless ifs cruiser.
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Follow Up By: Leroy - Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 00:59

Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 00:59
I reckon Floyed you are an early 80 series big end blowing turbo D wanna bee. Sure nissans blow engines.....but so did toyota....and now they blow diffs and gearboxes......

Leroy
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Follow Up By: Goona - Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 20:52

Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 20:52
Floyd,

The purpose of the post was not to brag but to simply state what happened on the day. As for driver skills not sure how experienced the other guys were but my mate in the other Nissan used to own a IFS Hilux
and could not do the same tracks as I was doing previously but rest assured he now doing along side me with ease. I don't think his driver skill has gotten any better just a better vehicle. As for tyres yes we have AT's on but they are by no means aggressive and would offer slightly better traction than the standard tyres that would be on a LC or Lexus although I did not take much notice of what they were running. My vehicle is a 2000 model and yes I have had a few problems but nothing like a gear box failure or engine failure. My mates is a 2003 3lt and to date not 1 thing wrong with it.

As for your comment and I quote ' Na Na NANANA to IFS " I was merely stating what happened on the day. We were not the ones hacking off at other vehicles as stated by LC and Lexus "those Nissans will never make it up here" we were simply having fun in a wonderful environment. I am sorry if I offended you.

May I ask what vehicle you are currently running?
.
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Follow Up By: floyd - Friday, Jul 02, 2004 at 14:03

Friday, Jul 02, 2004 at 14:03
Hey Goona Head, I was not "having a go" I couldn't give a $hit about what you have written. Just wanted to know the facts. It seems from the responses that I was not the only one that thinks that you were saying "NA NA NANANA". Maybe you should have written the post a bit better.

My Vehicles are:

2002 Troop Carrier
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Follow Up By: floyd - Friday, Jul 02, 2004 at 14:24

Friday, Jul 02, 2004 at 14:24
Ill Try again, Not sure what happened.

Hey Goona Head, I was not "having a go" I couldn't give a $hit about what you have written. Just wanted to know the facts. It seems from the responses that I was not the only one that thinks that you were saying "NA NA NANANA". Maybe you should have written the post a bit better.

My Vehicles are (for what its worth):

2002 Troop Carrier (Solid axles)
Current model Turbo Hilux (IFS)
HJ61 12HT (solid Axles)
Current Model 3.8 Pajero (IFS)
Holden Commadore (solid axle)

You have answered your own questions about why some vehicles struggled with your point on tyre types. The standard tyres on Toyotas and Nissans are actually made to suit the common denominator buyer and their usage. This is actually calculated by the marketers at 95% on road 5% off road. An AT tyre is far more superior to anything that would be provided new on a car. This is where ALL of the difference is when climbing wet hills. Next time your posts would be more informative if you give us all of the facts not just the ones that justify your vehicle purchase choice.

You may not have been the one "hacking off at other vehicles as stated by LC and Lexus "those Nissans will never make it up here" on the day, but you were having a go in the post.

I have owned both Toyoyas , Nissans, and Mitsubishis and couldnt give a $hit about any of them. The are just cars. Its the BS that flows in these posts and the lack of facts in stupid posts like these that is a waste of space on one of the top 4WD forums in the country.

If you wanted an argument on Nissan Vs Toyota or IFS vs Solid I am not interested. I reiterate my comment.though, just do a search on this or any of the number of 4WD forums and checkout all of the blown motors, fuel pump probs, sensor probs, brake probs etc... for Patrols built in the last 5 years and you may see a reason why some people buy other brands.

You certainly have not offended me. My skin is pretty thick. Just stop watsing our time with crap and give us all of the variables so the post has some merit. Actually I am not sure why I even answered you in the first place. Truckster would say that I have been caught by a fisherman Trolling. See ya. Going skiing for 2 hours. The sun is out and all lifts are operating.

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Follow Up By: Goona - Saturday, Jul 03, 2004 at 12:56

Saturday, Jul 03, 2004 at 12:56
Gee Floyd,

For someone that doesn't give ableepyou sure have got a bee in your bonnet about something.
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Reply By: GOB & denny vic member - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:21

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:21
geez goona live bait is like a live axle brings them in every time

steve
AnswerID: 65700

Reply By: Jimbo - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:28

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 19:28
Couldn't agree more. If you want to get into the serious stuff you need live axles. I used to drive a GQ and now drive a Terracan. Had a go at a rutted downhill tight right hander in the Terracan two weeks ago and stopped and reversed out for fear of destroying the plastic bumper (on the advice of Terracan Tim who was watching and giving sound directions); the GQ would have eaten it.

However for the most of the 4wd work I do, the Terracan suits my needs. I knew it had limitations when I bought it and it has lived up to my expectations as a genuine medium duty 4wd. It actually does things I didn't ecpect it to; it exceeds my expectations. As a luxurious form of transport, that offers sparkling on road performance, that lets me go bush every second weekend, I have found something that suits my needs. I'm as happy as a pig in $hit.

As for the blokes at LC park in their Cruisers, they need to understand Toyota doesn't mean best in the bush anymore. However, I must ask how many people really expect that level of 4wd ability. If your answer is that you do, ignore the advertising and buy a Nissan. If not buy something that suits your needs.

I might even be harsh enough to suggest that because they had spent all that money they expected to own the 'best'. Well this is clearly a case of you DON'T get what you pay for.

Marketing is a wonderful thing, it has an ability to convince people that a product may be better than it is, and at the same time make John Laws and Greg Norman even richer. All that advertising simply adds to the price of the coomodity, it doesn't improve its quality.

Just my thoughts (and I'm a very thoughtful man, just ask "her in doors" LOL)

Jim.
AnswerID: 65703

Follow Up By: terracan tim - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 20:10

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 20:10
a little of topic but there Talking of advertising did you see till the end of june the terracan comes with free side steps and nudge bar do I feel rip not waiting a couple of weeks to see what the end of finanical year sale was, even asked the dealer if there was going to be any specials and his reply was no should not of listened and waited a week or 2 also looks like I will have a gps for the weekend as well got some more maps on cd today another happy ifs owner after owning a gq patrol once I put the lift kit in my terracan and bigger tyres bring on the ruff stuff will try anything then all with ifs
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Reply By: Utemad - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 21:15

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 21:15
Well IMHO who gives a toss.

People buy what suits them and their needs. If they succumb to advertising lies then that's there problem. IFS vs Live axles.............. WHO CARES?!?!?!?!?

Utemad
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Follow Up By: Matho - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 21:35

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 21:35
here here
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Follow Up By: Member - Karl - Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 14:53

Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 14:53
I agree too. A lot of this comes down to drivers abilities, types of tyres and tyre pressures.
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Reply By: Vinnie - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 22:05

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 22:05
At the rate tracks are being closed & the save the bush mob are dictating 4x owners limit of access..... live axles may be come a thing of the past. Not a great deal of live axle 4x's to choose from these days unlike days of old.
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Reply By: Savvas - Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 22:13

Tuesday, Jun 29, 2004 at 22:13
I bet they didn't lock the centre diff
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Reply By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 20:24

Wednesday, Jun 30, 2004 at 20:24
Ok, my turn.

I believe the issue is not really IFS vs Beam, but coil vs torsion bar.

The problem I see with all torsion bar IFS set-ups is the inboard wishbone link point carries both the suspension forces as well as the linking forces. Due to the overall high load placed on that pivot point, it has to be located close to the (usually) outer part of the chassis to brace the bar against its opposition (chassis taking the "return" part of the forces), shortening the length available of the wishbone and therefore its potential vertical travel. Those who own them well and truly know this to be their limit.

The coil sprung IFS can seperate the linking from the suspension forces by having the links further inboard and the coils (suspension forces) mounted to a position more outboard than the chassis on the wishbones. This also allows the wishbones to be either stronger overall for the same weight, or more modestly contructed for the same overall strength as a torsion bar wishbone. An excellent example of this is on the Lada Niva.

FYI:
Kia Sportage (stock) 10.2" travel* (260mm) IFS coil

LC I believe to be about 9" travel*(225mm) IFS torsion bar, despite the wider track

* Where travel is from difference from upper to lower bumpstop measured from top of wheel arch to bottom of rim

The similar argument can be applied to coil versus leaf suspension in beam axle set-ups. Coils will win as there is a direct link between the (curved) length of the leaves, the shackles, and the distance between mounting points on the chassis. In essence the more travel you want, the more leaf length you need and the longer the distance is between your leaf/shackle to chassis mounting points (unless you want to run the risk of inverting your shackles every 5 mins). This obviously means that the front mounting point eventually ends up costing you approach angle, usually meaning you go for higher lift to accommodate larger tyres, etc., etc., etc.

The coil set-up only has to go a few inches past the front of the diff (panhard rod, steering linkages) to get to the end of its mechanical requirements for suspension, therefore having a greater potential for good approach angle.



AnswerID: 65840

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 12:49

Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 12:49
Finally someone talking with fact and common sense. Good on you.

I would also like to say that even if those formentioned vehicles did have less traction than the Nissans, by the sounds of them they were a couple of wallies anyway with more money than brains and probally wouldn't know one end of a transfer leaver from the other.
I would have loved to have been there and offered to drive one up for them... Bet you I would have got to the top no worries.
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Reply By: vuduguru - Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 21:16

Thursday, Jul 01, 2004 at 21:16
Cmon, let me have a go at the troll....

Blew a 4.8 Pooootrol into the weeds at the light on the bitumen...pussy probably couldnt manage a clutch and a stick. Thats where I do 40k a year. Smelly oil burners dont rate here ... Rum and V8's.

But seriously whatcha try to prove.... which stick are you holding long stick.. short stick or small stick.....HaHaHa.

Keep yours, I'll keep mine.
Shane
AnswerID: 66056

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