BATTERY

The post does say internal BMS - pretty clear to me.

Thanks OzzieCruiser. The question was for qldcamper.

Just wanted clarification on his/her Lithium battery that is presumably installed internally in his 'camper' and that the BMS (also presumably installed internally in his camper with his battery) was internal to his battery; or, internal to his camper! That was not clear to me.

Just to be clear, qldcamper opened a post on 'Batteries' and not a post on 'Batteries with internal BMS'.

I am interested in failures of Battery Management Systems having had 2 of my own. The post, as stated was about batteries and I was seeking clarification as to whether that was expanded to BMS's. You clearly have some insight into qldcamper's situation that is not apparent to me.

1392, Ozzie doesnt need insight into qldcampers situation. The OP clearly states "internal BMS" so its pretty safe to take that as a given fact. Pretty much all lithium batteries have an internal BMS (or should) and they are very different to the BMS (RedArc type I assume) that you are thinking of.

Sorry for answering when the question wasnt directed at me...

It is wrong to jump to conclusions.
I have sufficient knowledge on conventional and AGM batteries as I was in the industry since the time hard rubber cases were being phased out so have kept up with the evolution of said batteries.
However I have little knowledge of lithium batteries as I am no longer in the retail part of the industry.
The assumption that I have a problem with a lithium in service in my trailer is incorrect. I am using AGM batteries which perform very well although one has readings which most forumites would say is completely nackered yet it still does the trick.
Anything I know about lithium has come from the internet so the authenticity of such material is doubtful just as much of what you find on AGM batteries is not correct, or partially correct.
I put the question forward for educational purposes from people that have experienced failures as most people selling them say they last a very long time and have little to no trouble, which is a very bold statement for anything electrical.
Also trying to figure out why an external BMS is even required seeing internal BMS systems have blue tooth connectivity and can display everything on your phone.

Gday QC

"Also trying to figure out why an external BMS is even required seeing internal BMS systems have blue tooth connectivity and can display everything on your phone."

Some lithium batteries are constructed with large calls strapped together and interconnected in combinations to make the required voltage and amp-hour capacity. The cells have no inbuilt BMS, so an external one is required.

My Karavan battery conversion is one such. Each cell is 3V nominal, 180Ah capacity, no internal BMS. 8 of them are strapped together to provide 12V nominal, 360Ah capacity. Of necessity it has an external BMS, but no Bluetooth bells and whistles. I just use the programmable battery monitor that was already in the van.

My batteries were supplied by EV-Power near Margaret River, WA. They also do self-contained batteries with inbuilt BMS, some of those with Bluetooth. I cannot recommend then highly enough - brilliant!

Cheers

Frank
I think by "internal" QC means the BMS is inside the battery enclosure - typically strapped on top or on one side of the cell packs??? So inaccessible without some effort.

Don't know anyone whose battery/ies have failed but one thing I've noticed with cheap 12V LFPs is the BMS low voltage cutoff is less than 10V - too low if you repeatedly discharge your battery before recharging (which I'd guess is not a typical scenario). Even A grade cells will eventually fail under those conditions (don't know about pouches). Will Prowse made the comment that in his experience if a battery "fails" it will most likely be the BMS rather than the cells.

G'day Bazooka
I read QC's quote as wondering why some BMS are external when internal with Bluetooth is available.

Apologies to all if I misunderstood the issue.
Cheers

Ha ha Frank. No apology needed. I was just trying to clarify what I understood by QC's comment. I could be barking up the wrong tree totally.

The answer to his question COULD be simply that different installations have different setups - ie not all 12V battery systems are simply 1 -2,3, or 4 fully self-contained LFPs in parallel. That is you can buy LFPs in a number of configurations, with and without attached BMS'.

Thats the sort of stuff I was after.
Could you mention the brand, size and type of cells if known.
Interest in seeing the companies results.

I won't mention brand as they have been very good so far and are organising a new battery to be sent to me. I don't want to give them a bad name if it is a common fault with the drop in type batteries.

Not sure of cell type or BMS brand.

Had 2x 120ah in parallel (caravan) and didn't know I had a problem until there was no power. The shunt was reading 62% when I went to bed which ment I should have had 140ah left but in reality I only had less than 20ah left.
Not sure how long 1x battery had been down for but think it was a few months as the DCDC charger wasn't sending the full charge in when driving for a while and after isolating the failed battery it started pumping in properly.

I also have 1x120ah in the rear of the car.
The batteries had all been working well until then.

LFP tech originated in the USA 1392. China has largely taken over cell and BMS manufacture but US (and other country) companies - eg Gotion - are heavily involved in their production.

Bazooka, so it was he Red Indians that came up with the idea?

You're stringing me along Banjo. One century 'BC' was possibly a little early. Even the word electricity had yet to be coined.

No appology needed 1392, threads always veer a little off course but remain interesting never the less.
I see a new development in lithium iron phosphate batteries has developed in forums, it seems now they are termed LFP, god knows who dreamed that one up.
I am lead to believe that all "LFP" batteries configured with cells in series need individule cell monitoring to prevent over charging of some cells if they reach full charge before others.
There have been quite a few new miricle battery chemistries claimed over the years but none, including AGM can perform as well as good old LA in under bonnet hi,( or low for that matter) discharge conditions. They were all developed for non automotive applications and fail in automotive applications.

My 170ah Renogy has started to play up it was going into sleep mode at 68%. But now only after a couple of hours run time starting at 100%. I have been corresponding via email to Renogy when I can but I have been busy as well so it's time consuming and to add to it you have to raise a ticket and send a photo every time via their web site as they claim they have no phone number to ring pretty annoying.

LFP is short for LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) QC, to distinguish them from Lithium Ion batteries (different chemistry) which are commonly found in small electronic devices like phones and laptops.

You are spot on regarding LFP cell management. Cells - typically cylindrical 3.2V batteries - should initially be closely matched (voltage, resistance, capacity, size) during battery construction, and subsequently kept "balanced" during operation as you wrote. Balancing is one of the most important tasks of BMS's. Not all LFP batteries use cylindrical cells - some (eg Renogy iirc) use pouch cells.

All auto batteries need good management but in general, LFP massively outperforms LA as far as high discharge capability goes, and to boot is not affected by the peukert effect which significantly reduces available capacity in LA batteries in those circumstances.

LFPs can also be "completely" discharged with minimal effect on battery life (caveats apply). LA needs to be recharged soon after being flattened or the risk of early failure is significantly increased.

There are now quite a few under-bonnet/starter LFPs available on the market and as yet no indication that these won't perform as well, or better than, their LA equivalents.

Not sure about "failure" rates but electric cars have been around for quite a while now and off-grid houses using LFP batteries have been operating successfully for years.

Interesting Bazooka,
Last time I needed starting battery, about 6 or 8 weeks ago I still use the company I used when in business here and had a good chat to the rep and he said as yet they have not found a "LFP" battery that could drop in as an under bonnet cranking battery successfully, and for that matter would not warrant any lithium for under bonnet mounting, and was supprised I still had one of their marine AGMs in service under bonnet after 2 1/2 years.
Any links to the starting batteries you speak of?

Lithium crank batteries

Lead-acid batteries have been around for eons. They have been researched, developed, written about and tested to the point where they are well understood, extremely predictable and reliable. They are a very simple device with no active components. And in relative terms, cheap.
Lithium batteries (all varieties) are nowhere near as developed and understood. The advantages they offer have been 'marketed' extensively - lighter (at a much greater cost) and higher energy density (at higher cost). But what is not so well advertised in the 'marketing' of Lithium batteries is the complexity required to charge and maintain them in a safe, working condition aka the Battery Management System (BMS).
Given we are communicating on a forum principally dedicated to RV owners, the majority interest is in the application of batteries for standby power i.e. when off-grid. The application therefore is low to moderate discharge applications, running fridge, lights, etc - not high charge/discharge cycles as experienced in EV's or UPS systems.
Incorporating part or all of the BMS into a battery is an over-complication of, again, a simple device. Why is it necessary to do so for RV applications? I can only speculate that the use of an internal BMS is a spin-off from high cycle applications (as in RV's, etc) as a safety initiative of being able to detect rapid temperature rises directly at the source, not externally at the battery post. There are probably other benefits that the internal BMS has but it comes with the one big disadvantage.
Being an 'active electronic component' renders the internal BMS to higher likelihood of failure from its environment and external issues that the 'passive' cells do not have.
I regard my camper as my life support system when out bush. I have LiFePO4 batteries with external BMS/charger plus an AGM standby battery in the vehicle. I have had BMS/charger issues that were a PIA but they were both remedied without the need to send expensive batteries to the bin.
And as for incorporating Bluetooth communication into the battery/charge system, that is the antithesis for going bush! C'mon! Really?

Thanks Genny,
Just had a quick read of one of them, nowhere does it mention the type of lithium chemistry, is it Lithium Iron or lithium cobolt etc?
Time will tell, but running a battery right on its max operating temp seems a bit sus to me especially if it is lithium cobolt.
Remember when the first of the LA deep cycle batteries hit the market, the blurb wasnt much different to this but it soon proved incorrect in real life situations, same can be said for AGMs, because neither were designed for automotive use so charging systems had to be modified.
Also if they are confident, why only the statutory warranty? If they are so good you would think a 5 year term would be reasonable seeing that for the same money you could get a new LA battery 3 times which will give at least 6 years service.
Time will tell.

There is a massive amount of good information on 12V LFP battery structure, operation and maintenance available 1392, no need for speculation. If you like visuals I can recommend Will Prowse's videos where he deconstructs batteries and examines components etc.

A reasonable rule of thumb (there will always be exceptions) is that very cheap LFPs will likely have lower quality cells, cheaper BMS' and internal parts (wires, posts, busbars, separators etc). BMS components are no more complex than many other products campers already use. Really good BMS's (~$100) ought to be as reliable as most other electronics in your travelling kit.

Understand the sentiment but I think your last sentence is a stretch. If you have expensive life support systems while going bush I can't see how an app on your phone which may help you monitor your battery (or fridge) setup is antithetical. By all means discard the fridge, tent, chairs, comfy mattress if you want etc. I probably shouldn't reveal this but I have an app which enables you to point and read the stars.

I am absolutely certain that Lithium technology did not get to where it is without research and development Bazooka. However, what Lithium does not have is history. Its history is still being written and it has not been very pretty to date.

Electronics can be reliable or unreliable - you get what you pay for. But embedding an electronic component into the internals of a battery, whilst it may be essential for high discharge systems (such as an EV battery) which works hard, but for an RV application it doesn't stack up. I doubt that many EV's travel the GCR, Oodnadatta track or the Gibb RR.

Do you have bluetooth connectivity and an app for your vehicle battery? Of course you don't because you have grown up knowing how reliable and well proven LA technology works. Bluetooth and apps, well that smacks of the manufacturer being unsure whether their inbuilt BMS is up to the grade - ditto for the fridge! My camper had its fridge installed in its slide backwards so the control panel was facing inside and not visible. The manufacturer extolled the virtues of having bluetooth connectivity to a mobile phone so you can see what the fridge is doing!

I ripped the fridge out, re-drilled the base, reversed the lids and now I can look at the ACTUAL fridge control panel anytime I like. If I was really serious, I would have spent extra money and bought a proper fridge, an app free Engel. My fridges at home don't have that feature. I can leave them for a month and they look after themselves. Another example of proven technology.

Sorry, been around too long to get sucked into carrying my BMS, fridge or star gazer with me when swimming, fishing, hiking or just kicking back with a cold one. Reliability beats technology hands down.

As for de-constructing batteries, the issue for me is not the battery itself, it is including active components into the case of the battery where they are inaccessible; in a hostile environment; cannot be serviced or tested; and, apparently cannot be replaced. If I understand the situation, you cannot even charge the battery if it fails. Just what you want out the back of Halls Creek.

I'm not here to convince you of the benefits of LFP technology, 12V LFP battery quality or capability 1392. People can make up their own minds (tens of thousands have for travel, camping, boating, and home applications) about the technology, it's costs and benefits, reliability etc - preferably after they actually research the product and understand it's limitations/potential weaknesses.

I am however interested in this "not very pretty history" to date that you write about though. If LFPs fail more often than other LA, AGM battery types then the cover up has been extremely successful. Can you provide some links or experiences which led you to that conclusion?

I don't need bluetooth connectivity for my vehicle battery because it performs basically two tasks and the vehicle makers have systems which keep it functioning as it should. I do have to physically check its status occasionally, although even then I'm largely in the dark about whether it's on its way out until a load is applied. Unfortunately when it fails it also can't be charged.

People using batteries for off-grid power almost invariably have additional systems to manage them. My fridge has a bluetooth phone app which allows me to monitor and change settings, as does my Victron 240V Lithium charger. I don't have to physically attend either or fiddle around in the dark. Makes sense to me.

I'm bemused as to what 12V batteries have to do with hiking or swimming but I can say without unequivocally that I don't want to be carrying a LA battery around when I need to recharge any of my devices or keep my (bluetooth enabled) fridge running off grid.

Boeing 787 Dreamliner battery fires.
Victorian Neoen Tesla Mega pack battery fire.
Samsung mobile device battery fires.
Fires burning down houses every second day caused by electric scooter batteries on charge.

I did say Lithium technology!

Looked up your Mr Will Prowse, the self proclaimed Youtube solar guru who can deconstruct batteries and give his personal perspective on them. He is an influencer! He gets paid by the advertisers on his web site whether or not he gives factual info. That does not make him an expert. If he reconstructed the batteries that he stripped apart, and made them work again, then he may have some credibility.

I worked for over 20 years with LA batteries, chargers and DC powered equipment from an engineering, specifying, service and sales perspective. I think I have an insight into battery application that is based on hands on experience, not the perspective of a self proclaimed solar guru influencer.

Tip: Believe none of what you hear (or read on the internet) and only half of what you see.

And on the recreation side - I can leave my RV with full knowledge that my battery system is looking after itself. I don't need to carry a phone with me and regularly check in to see what it is doing. I don't have paranoia that my batteries internal BMS is about to crap itself because, I don't have a battery with internal BMS! So I swim, fish and drink without fear.

PS. If you read carefully, you will note that I have said I have LiFePO4 batteries (with external BMS) in my RV. I have (so far) got the bugs out of the BMS and it works great. But I do carry a generator and do have a back up AGM battery running a back up fridge in the vehicle, just in case.

As Will Prowse - who doesn't sing his own praises and clearly has considerable knowledge and experience with LFP and solar applications - could have told you 1392: there's a world of difference between lithium ion and LFP chemistry. He's just one of numerous good sources on the topic if you look. He's also far from perfect - he acknowledges and shows his mistakes.

I always get a wry smile when I see suggestions on forums that we ignore the myriad sources of reliable data, information, and analysis/opinion on the internet. It's almost invariably accompanied by implications of far superior personal expertise and experience - which in very rare cases might be/is reasonable. The internet is certainly a mixed bag - plenty of rubbish and pseudo-information but there is also a plethora of good science/technology/information if you're prepared to search, listen and skeptically assess. Comparing many different sources and checking the authority/author credentials is always a smart step imo.

My take on internal BMS' is this. IF they were consistently failing then being (practically) inaccessible would indeed be a huge negative. As it is I see no evidence for that currently. With more cheap LFPs being sold perhaps that will change but as one bloke said on another forum - "for the money [he] paid, if the LFP cheapie doesn't last beyond the warranty [he'll] have got [his] money's worth anyway". Different strokes as they say.

1392 it sounds like after your 20yrs of experience in that field that you have no more faith in an external BMS than you have in an internal BMS especially if you feel the need to have to carry a backup battery and fridge and a genny. I had a recent failure with mine but in the past or even when I get this battery replaced I have never or will be that paranoid about it failing to warrant carrying a stack of backup gear. You might need to reassess the actual reliability of the set up for piece of mind and to reduce carrying unnecessary weight in the vehicle. P.S a phone would be lighter to carry.

1392...You should be living out Longreach way...heaps of dinosaurs out there you could chat with.

Thanks Batt's and Bigfish. Great and well considered advice. Much appreciated.

Problem is that where I go, there are no battery shops to pop into, nor phone reception.

Having a backup is called being risk averse. You guys probably don't need to consider that when you pop out to the polo match for a couple of glasses of Chardonnay :)

As nice a bloke as he seems, he has no qualifications or mechanical background.
He is obviously just trying to cash in on the utube gig, why else would he deliberately drive an LC 200 series into the deepest part of a water crossing he was warned about and then be supprised his electrical system started failing and have no clue how to troubleshoot it?
If you have seen any of his videos you would know this.
If you look in the other direction you will find videos on under bonnet LPO batteries that fail in a short amount of time.
What chemistry are the itech world cranking batteries, their blurb doesnt seem to mention it.
I have worked with yellow top optima batteries in one of Australias hottest places in the pilbara in some of the largest trucks in the world so am quite aware of their capabilities, be very interested to see how the itech drop ins would hold up.

This thread is simply trying to find out how real people have found real failures in real circimstances, not utubers banging on about stuff most of them now very little about.

I'm aware of your original question QC. I'm sure we're all interested in the feedback because there's very little anecdotal evidence of 12V LFP failures around. There must have been some. The lack of complaints and anecdotes from dissatisfied buyers is suggestive to me at this point. Others can draw their own conclusions.

You seemed unaware of the specialist cranking/under-bonnet LFP batteries now available. Hence some of my comments.

Wrt the iTech V Optima test video. That's the only video of his I've seen. Highly likely he's not as expert as some at 4WDing or troubleshooting modern vehicle electrics - heck maybe he likes Rap music and doesn't go to church also - but how that invalidates his test is a mystery to me. Youtube gigger or not, exactly what part of those tests were invalid?

I'm interested in any info on LFP failures (under-bonnet or otherwise) you can provide, especially if they involve batteries from the more reputable makers like Enerdrive, EV Power, DCS, etc. Standard LFPs are not made for cranking or under-bonnet use, although not all sellers or buyers appear aware of that. I have yet to read about LFP failures or any analysis of what failed but I gather that cells can swell and/or the BMS may shut down charging in very high temps. We also know that continued exposure to very high or low temps is bad for LFP life expectancy. Despite all these apparent limitations I regularly read about travellers who have had LFPs for years with no failures reported.

It doesn't matter to me what batteries or setups people opt for - there are valid reasons for all choices.

An entertaining video but nothing surprising, there is little doubt lithium batteries are superior performers.
Comparing 2 different chemical batteries that have different nominal voltages will not suprisingly give differing results.
I would have liked to see the voltage/current curves of the carbon pile tests and also their max discharge on a decent size carbon tester, just to see what the itech battery really is capable of.
Maybe some tests at 80 degrees seeing it is rated at that.
But my biggest concern is the type of cell, are they the LFP structure which seems to be much less prone if at all to thermal runaway or have they opted for a less stable more energy dense variant.
The tests performed were after bench charging with I assume a charger with the correct profile selected which is fine to do a bench top comparison but will the vehicle charging system get either of those two batteries to their optimum state, as far as I am aware, vehicles are still designed to operate with flooded LA batteries.
I am not trying to prove lithium batteries are not superior, just curious to see how one manufacturer has managed to overcome all the problems others havent been able to, and what are the advantages verses price difference.
It is a time will tell situation and by then I am pretty confident lithium batteries will be superseded by other chemistries anyway.
Batteries will soon be life of vehicle, with the vehicle operating system engineered specifically for that type, but then again, will ICE vehicles be around long enough to warrant that?

By the way, I have recently removed an optima red top battery from my hilux after just over 2 years, very disappointing. Replaced it with a LA NS70 for half the price and Im pretty sure it will last at least 2 years.

As well as powering the motohome our 4 cell 300Ah LiFePO4 Sinopoly battery has been starting our 3.9l TD Canter truck with ease often multiple times daily for more than 8 years. I have measured a peak current of 740A. Energy used in starting is replaced by the 100A alternator in about 30 seconds.

The battery has no "BMS" circuitry as such. All charging sources never exceed 14,1V at which point it is always full. Solar 50A and alternator 80A. The Victron BattetyProtect device will hopefully disconnect the battery at 12.1V or whatever level I set. Never triggered.

The battery cells have not been been balanced since the original top balancing during installation. All cells still remain within c40mV at any voltage within the minimum ever 12.85V and the 14.1V.
I capacity test the battery each November at C/10 and in Ah it has dropped from 314 to 301 in 8 years.

Like ALL batteries it will die one day.

Interesting.
Are they prismatic cells?
Where are they mounted , engine compartment or elswhere?

Yes they are prismatic cells. The battery is installed in the stairwell space at the side entrance door. Nowhere near the engine compartment. Battery case temperature would typically be within a degree or two of the outside level.

I had a 100Ah DCS lithium under-bonnet installed in my MY21 Prado last Dec, and it failed a couple of months later. Replaced under warranty, Replacement has been fine and is currently happily travelling around outback Qld,

I didn't ever get a report back from DCS after my auto-electrician arranged the swap. The indications were that it was the BMS, as the first sign of trouble was that the bluetooth monitoring module wasn't operative, even though the battery would still run the fridge. My sparkie also found that it wasn't taking charge.

I have (legally) monitored the battery temp while driving my Prado, and the temp while travelling isn't much different to the ambient air temperature. It warms a bit when the vehicle stops, but not all that much. I don't consider that this failure was caused by being under the bonnet, it just seems to have been One Of Those Things.

Good on you Scubadoo having the guts to suck it and see, and it seems to be paying off.
The accessory companies will always cash in after convincing people they cant survive without thousands of dollars worth of bells and whistles, and the convincing is easy now with social media with myths snowballing very quickly.
Look at all the shit they sell for AGM systems where all thats needed is a volt meter and a little basic knowledge.
The same is happening with lithium, the scare tactics have already taken hold.
Battery systems do not have to be operated at 100% efficiency, if they did it would not be practical for ordinary people to be using them in any automotive applications.
Your experiment is proving that, lithium batteries are efficient so much so that even at 80% efficiency they will out perform AGM, but that isnt good enough for armchair experts.
Fire is the biggest fear hence the internal BMS but according to one of the self proclaimed experts previously mentioned in this thread, there have been no recorded incidents of LFP battery fires.
After having said that, a thermal runaway fire with a lithium cobolt battery scares the hell out of me, they can not be extinguished as they generate their own oxygen, that explanes the internal BMS, just in case.

Skepticism when accompanied by knowledge is a good thing imo. A little basic knowledge of LFP chemistry - or even a 5 minute search - will tell anyone interested that the well-known fire risk of Lithium Ion (no 'r') (NMC/NCA) does NOT apply to LiFePO4 batteries.

There is NO cobalt in LFP batteries, so no need to be scared. LFP batteries don't suffer from thermal runaway, the fire risk from the cells is negligible/"nil" and they won't explode like LA.

BMS' are used to MANAGE cells as optimally as possible, primarily for longevity but also for efficiency obviously (possibly more important for off-grid homes and other applications). They not only balance cells, they also protect batteries from over- and under-voltage, over current, short-circuit etc. The better (?) ones have features such as temperature control, SOC status, alerts, and - obviously - communication ports. Wrt temp control - Prowse and others have found some which claim this in their specs don't even have a sensor. In others the sensor didn't work. Most opinions I've read suggest that BMS temp control is much less important in Australian conditions.

You can buy and/or build LFP batteries without BMS's if that's your preference but it's wise to have some sort of protection/monitoring, as most "RVers" do, irrespective of battery type.

.
I really appreciate and endorse all that Bazooka has said above.
In particular, his last sentence....."You can buy and/or build LFP batteries without BMS's if that's your preference but it's wise to have some sort of protection/monitoring..."

Certainly, BMS modules can fail, just as any electronic devices can, but the likelihood of that with a quality product is low. On the other hand, the value of the protection offered by having a BMS, internal or external, is high. They offer reasonable immunity from harm in the event of disastrous malfunctions.
Those who shun them may well be behaving like those who eschew the benefit of masks in a Covid environment. You may never require their protection but, rather like fuses, the consequences of forsaking it can be severe.

Furthermore, in my opinion, the significance of the BMS being located within or outside the battery is of insignificance.

And thank you QC in starting a 'battery post' to keep the Forum alive! lol

Learn to read Bazooka.
Show me where I said there is cobolt in LFP battery.

No worries Allan, hope your travels are going well.

I can read QC. My comprehension needs some work though it seems. My mistake was that I, and plenty of others, assumed your original question was about typical 12V lithium (aka LFP) batteries used to power "RVs" and peripherals. Apparently it was in fact about 12V lithium cobalt (LCO) batteries. The good news - apart from the fact that ICE vehicles don't require LA batteries to function - is that 12V LCO batteries (with or without internal BMS's) for ICE vehicle and off-grid power appear to be as rare as rocking horse manure.

Types of Li batteries

Got it totally wrong again Bazooka.

I think in future we should get a solicitor to write our posts in legal jargon soit can be interpreted in only one way.

Glad I know very little about batteries so I don't have to post on battery topics on here lol

I just replace my batteries when required with new ones and just keep driving - seems to have worked for me over the last 50 years !


Happy safe and battery free troubles

Cheers
Gazz

You dont need to Gazz,
Just say anything and others will turn it into something else for you.

"Fire is the biggest fear hence the internal BMS but according to one of the self proclaimed experts previously mentioned in this thread, there have been no recorded incidents of LFP battery fires."

At the risk of pouring cobalt onto the flames and upsetting your Sunday, what precisely were you suggesting with this then QC? Just one of many bits of misinformation in this thread in case anyone unfamiliar with the technology is reading.

Floor's all yours. I've already explained what BMS' (internal or external) actually do and reiterated what every source I've read says about fire risk for the batteries being discussed.

The thread had moved away from the original post Bazooka, keep up or shut up.

The fires mentioned earlier in the thread were lithium ion batteries containing cobolt.
Nowhere was it mentioned tjat LFP batteries contain cobolt, until you mentioned they didnt infering that I thought they did.
So pull your bloody head in.

I said: "I have (legally) monitored the battery temp while driving my Prado, and the temp while travelling isn't much different to the ambient air temperature. It warms a bit when the vehicle stops, but not all that much. "

I realise that this isn't really relevant to the slugfest that this thread became, but for the record, I checked the DCS under-bonnet battery temp again yesterday. Ambient temp was 25-26C, and while driving the battery was 28. When stopped it climbed to 32-34C. It's not the peak of summer yet, but at this stage I can't see this leading to heat-induced failure. The current series Prado does seem to have a well-located spot for the second battery.

Thanks for your input Briste,
This is the sort of thing that I was after in my original post, all useful hands on experience, not just links to utubers that have no real life experience.

Under bonnet environment is harsh.
The ARB battery tray for my model Hilux is not only positioned in a very hot place but also limited to 25kg off road load.
I have re positioned my start battery cables to that tray and run a red top optima and put the 100 Ah AGM in the original battery position, resulting in a very sluggish optima in a little over 2 years which I replaced with a conventional flooded battery before my last trip into negative temps.
The accessory battery is still going although going by the volt meter it is technically nackered but it keeps going often getting as low as 11 volts while the fridge is running after 6 hours or so but lasts 2 days running like that. Shudder to think what its capacity actually is but it keeps going, been doing this for over a year now.
Will replace it before my next serious trip but pretty sure lithium is not a viable option for it.
Still undecided on the next battery for the camper.

My experience is pretty limited, so just bear this in mind.

Which model Hilux? My auto-electrician put a dual DCS solution into his brand new Hilux at the same time as he put a single DCS in mine as a second battery. I havent heard any report back from him on temps.

The main issue we both had was that the alternator in both new Prados and Hiluxes doesn't really output a high enough voltage for lithium, so the direct charge rate though an isolator was a bit on the slow side. So he ended up putting a 40A Redarc BCDC in mine, and I assume something similar in his.

Mine is a 2013 model which has a temp compensated output which normally quickly drops to about 13.2 in normal conditions, but I noticed it remained close to or above 14 when driving in freezing conditions so I run a bcdc unit for the accessory batteries.
I did fit a 130 amp OEX alternator about 180k Km ago but it failed after about 10k and the only replacement available in Longreach at the time was a std unit.
Was unable to examine the cause of the failure due to it being under warranty but assume it was a rectifier fault seeing extreem heat melted plastic components at the rear of the alternator, but thats just an educated guess.

Opaque wins hands down !!

Was never an arguement about batteries, just one party continously misinterpreting and twisting what the other party said.
Seemed pretty deliberate.

Gloves off time. You've slagged me, slagged off people (influencers/giggers - use whatever deflecting label you want) with obviously far more knowledge and experience than yourself.

You were asked to clarify some of your more egregious your comments - such as the one repeated below - and didn't (or more likely couldn't).

"Fire is the biggest fear hence the internal BMS but according to one of the self proclaimed experts previously mentioned in this thread, there have been no recorded incidents of LFP battery fires."

Second chance. Which lithium batteries with internal BMS' are fire risks in your expert opinion, and how is that relevant to your enquiry/this discussion?

The simple facts are these. The typical "lithium" batteries you appear to have been enquiring about - those made and sold for "RV" uses - are LFP batteries.

They, (unlike LCO batteries), almost invariably come with inbuilt BMS' whose functions have already been described here and on hundreds of websites around the globe.

Current knowledge, experience and wisdom says that these batteries ARE NOT FIRE RISKS, unlike their different chemistry cousins.

Special versions (sometimes called hybrids) can be, and ARE, used to start and power vehicles. The internals and BMS' of these batteries are likely modified for under-bonnet use.

12V LFPs appear to be reliable and easily managed. They've been used onshore and offshore for many years and due to their characteristics are now the choice of many who previously had LA or AGM batteries.

LFPs are usually significantly more expensive than alternatives and may not suit everyone. Do your research before buying, there's myriad GOOD information out there about almost every LFP topic you can think of.

At times this forum urgently needs one of these detectors

Bazooka, suggest you read the last patt of a the last post I directed to you.
The bit that says "pull your head in"

Puerile tosh is best ignored I find.

I just saw your comments about the Hilux above. I suggest that had you explained what you actually wanted to do and not muddied the waters with misinformed waffle then you may have got exactly the kind of feedback you wanted.

Another example of you not having a clue about what the thread is about, the explanation about my current set up has nothing to do with my original post, it was simply a side conversation I was having with Briste.
Now Bazooka would you please refer back to my last post to you where I refered you back to my previous post suggesting you pull your head in, you dont seem to get the gist of that either.

Keyboard cowboys are a dime a dozen QC. One thing they have in common is opinionated ignorance.