Lithium Batteries for Deep Cycle Replacement (AGM)

As with AGMs (and most other things) I suggest that price is a poor indicator of quality.
Advertising, marketing techniques and customer demand all push the retail price upwards without having any effect on real quality which is established in the factory and is determined by design, material choice and the consistency of the manufacturing process.
The customers are the largest influence on the price.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

Yes Peter, you are no doubt correct but without many established brands available how does one make an informed decision?
Ross

Hi Ross

These are my thoughts only….

Why waste the big dollars on a Lithium battery, with many unknowns?

I have just replaced the battery in my camper with another AGM battery.

Why you ask, well I have had over nine and a half years of trouble free service out of my old AGM and something that I bet you can not get out of a Lithium at those extra dollars.

Ross N
I suspect the major battery producers have millions of $'s locked up in lead battery production and while that is happening they don't want to, or can't see sufficient immediate $'s for their bottom line into the near future.

Most people compare, as some have done, "my AGM lasts 10 years" etc. I have experienced that too, but a lithium isn't just about Life for me.
It is also about life AND the AH usability from a relatively lighter battery, of smaller size. Most lithium can be discharged lower than an AGM for the same stated size while retaining close to same voltage throughout, unlike an AGM. I use AGM's to runa 1000w Giandel sw inverter to run my fridge, has done so for the last 1100 days.
I bought 8 lithium Blue cells and run them as 2p4s pack. Each 72ah which makes 140ah at around 13.2v. and 100amp BMS. This for the caravan. All good after 1 year!

.
Hi Ross, let me first say that you are probably opening Pandora's Box by inviting "discussion" on batteries of any type. Battery threads on this forum are notorious for opinionated views which invariably confuse the inquirer.
As an electrical engineer I could claim some reasonable understanding of the subject but prudence causes me to be very cautious in my expressions. So I shall not here argue the merits of Lead Acid versus Lithium batteries. They each have merits and the purchaser will apply his own assessment of the relative values.

Over the many years of evaluating suppliers of equipment for industry I found that price alone was not a reliable guide but it was generally safe to purchase products from companies that had established a respectable position in the marketplace. It would be fair to say that such sources prices were certainly not the cheapest but their products were invariably of expected quality and their after-sales service was reliable.

To address your specific questions I think that the established retailers of lead acid batteries are also offering lithium batteries. As the technology of lithium is so different to lead acid it is perhaps not surprising that the Australian manufacturers have yet to invest in lithium manufacture ,although several are marketing lithium products within their brand which have been sourced from elsewhere.

As for parallel operation, it is technically safe to do so provided that correct procedure is followed...... but that also applies to lead acid batteries. As a new owner of a Mercedes Sprinter van outfitted as a motor-home I subscribe to a USA based forum where virtually all owners adopt lithium and many have banks of paralleled batteries. Setups with four connected batteries totalling 800 Ampere hours is not unusual.

When I outfitted my Sprinter I opted for a single 200Ah battery and following my dictum selected Enerdrive for both the battery and the chargers and management system. After about 6 months the management display locked up for some unknown reason. Enerdrive fixed the problem and returned it the next day by Express Post at no charge. It validated my choice of supplier.

Hi Ross,

Lithium batteries have been used by industry for many years. The vast majority of battery backup systems for computers and electronic systems where an “Uninterrupted Power Supply” (UPS) is required is being powered by lithium batteries. I have personal knowledge of a UPS system using Lithium batteries for at least 20 years.

Yes, there are issues with some Lithium battery chemistries such as Lithium Ion (Lion), but these issues are well known and have been known for quite some time. They are generally not used for larger applications such as caravans and home systems and battery back up systems etc.

Macca.

Issues?

I guess pre puchase homework is a key.

In the meantime we will continue to enjoy our 13V 300Ah LiFePO4 battery that has survived 9 years of full-time travel with a c5% capacity loss. In Ah 315 down to just 299 according to my annual November C/10 capacity test.

It also starts the Canter 3.9l TD engine often multiple times a day with ease and will accept an 80A alternator charge until full.
Try that with any lead acid battery.

I'm guessing that we would be be on our second or third twin paralleled cranking and AGM batteries by now.

Issues so far = zero.

As a relatively early adopter of lithium batteries for RV (hate that "word" ) use 400ah Winston battery I built 12 years ago and fitted in the Oka for the "house" battery is still going strong, In fact a capacity test last year showed no degradation in capacity over that time, due in part to Winston understating a little bit the cell capacity.
During that period it has been used continuously 24/7 except for about half a dozen occasions when we have travelled for periods of up to 6 months without the Oka when it has been partially discharged and then isolated completely while we were away.
During that time it has run a 130 litre compressor fridge 24/7 with the sole charging source being the roof mounted solar, no charging from the vehicle at all.
When at home in the shed with no solar I use a Projecta 35 amp mains charger to top the battery up once a fortnight.
We run the 12v fridge, 12v lighting, 12v fans, 240 volt electric jug, toaster, slow cooker, induction cooktop plus the myriad chargers for electronic devices, power tools and two electric MTB's through a 1800w PSW inverter when required so it has been well used over time as we either free camp or if in a park unpowered sites, one annual one for a month at a time at the beach. 60 odd kilos instead of the 140kg of AGM's we had initially.
I've also built and installed three other similar systems and fitted them to friends campers over the years, they too are still functioning well.
I guess this discussion is about drop in batteries with vastly different construction and often poor quality components that is a totally different kettle of fish which I have had no experience but having seen what people do to their AGM's I have no doubt they could easily kill a drop in lithium battery.

I put after sales service above price and also warranty V price are an important factor

Sure some manufacturers offer big warranties and some are only prorated but your initial purchase price is usually 2-3 times the price of some of the cheaper offerings so the warranty doesn’t necessarily equate to a better value purchase
Also a lot of these boutique battery brands don’t have nationwide support so a warranty claim can be slow and you pay for freight across the country

My take on your original thoughts as to why the big name brands are not leaning towards lithium production is that they know it will be short lived, other chemistries are being developed as we write.

Remember Kodak, they had the film market tied up. One of their scientists invented a novel device, the digital camera. The powers to be in Kodak had a dilemma, should they invest heavily in something that may never gain a foot hold as other companies had done and gone down the gurgler and that could challenge their core business? They decided to shelve it and so sealed their fate.

Present brand name companies are focused on their core business which is lead acid batteries and that is their main sales market. Companies these days don't want to spend money on research and development, for them to shift into manufacturing Lithium batteries is a big investment plus they are many years behind the competiton. The other big problem is which way to jump, first it was nickle cademium that was to be the game changer, then nickle metal hydride now Lithium plus there are many more mixes under developement.

One has to wonder about the future of such companies as Century batteries for instance given auto batteries in a few years will be for electric vehicles and the supply for these is already tied up with most electric vehicle manufactures already having preferred suppliers so it seems they have missed the boat there. Another big area will be home storage systems but again there are already a lot of key players in that area.

Would image that the "big names" who have missed the boat will eventually go down the path of making batteries under licence to the established companies in other areas once the dust settles somewhat.

As to what battery to buy, I went with CALB cells as they were an established company and I knew what I was getting. If buying a drop in I would ask who makes the cells and what are the specs for the cells if they can't tell you that a lot won't be able to then I would give them a miss. The ones you then have left you can do some research on ie customer reviews etc.

Ross, I have been following responses to your post with interest as I have also been contemplating such an upgrade. The one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet and the thing that is influencing me at the moment is the change in rules concerning battery placement that for all intents and purposes came into play last week. My understanding is that if I replace my 2 x 120a/h agms with one or two Lithiums I now have to place them external to the living space. If however I replace with new AGMs - all good. Similarly lithium to lithium but in the unlikely event someone was to go lithium to AGM it would also trigger the need to place them externally. The rules don't differentiate the type of battery only the change. All new vans have to have them outside effective from 18/11/23.

Sorry if I am introducing a red herring to your thread but its not far off topic.

Kenell

Its truly a land mine out there, I just brought a DCS 180AH, and as impressive as its energy density is, I have no way of knowing what its quality is. Other DCS reviews of poor life under bonnet suggest their cells are average so I'm worried.

Generally you buy a cheap battery its overall crap with average quality but non the less fairly good for shorter periods, you buy a top brand and ~40% of the price is in overheads with some possible awful design flaws, thats just how the world works. I could never spend the money on a red arc or victron without knowing exactly the quality of cells.

They all pretty much have the same internal engineering and quality of cells, none I have seen strike me as stand out. I have used alot of dropins over the years from torture testing various monitors.

At some point you realize these batteries are a liability, they work well but when they pack up your left stranded with a warranty worth as much as the paper its printed on.

For me as a guide, I look for energy density, being backed by a large mob, giving some indication the battery is intended for outback use, price per ah, "warranty" period LOL,

Parallel use requirements:

1- each battery must be able to deal with the bank's max draw. the cells in each 12v batt must be limited to 1C discharge (dont listen to the nonsense of 2-3C), the bms must be able to handle the max draw on the whole bank, with mosfets as switches that means they need to be programmed right.

2- each batterys bms must be able to handle the transient on long inrush currents and disconnect/reconnects. as a battery reconnect at low soc the others might discharge heavily into it for a short period, the bms may see this and keep disconnecting as it thinks its too high, so a delay in shut off would be needed.

3-all the pos and neg cables from each battery must have same resistance (balanced), ignore some unscrupulous li battery installers who tell you lithium in parallel is bad, they spread lies.
Enerdrive made an embarrassing video once saying you cant parallel which showed their misunderstanding of how solid state switches work.

4-the crucial overlooked point is the batteries must be top balanced! which means simply charging them all to ~14.4v taper current 0, this means they will all get to the bottom perfectly. Again some li battery installer goes around saying they each deliver different amps, that is exactly what they are suppose to do! You dont worry about them all giving different amps, you worry they all have the same soc (voltage) which is obtained by top balance. be carful of unscrupulous people who dont really understand electrical theory and physics.


li is easy, but some basic knowledge is needed.