Y'a learn something every day

Submitted: Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 17:40
ThreadID: 15634 Views:2655 Replies:8 FollowUps:10
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When I was a kid working on cars with m' Dad, we never had to replace the brake fluid we used then - just top it up when y' purged the brakes.
I was checking through the manual and it says at X kl's to "replace all the brake fluid". So I ring up my (very) friendly brake specialist to ask him what's the go, are the dealers just spruking up extra work & $'s. And he says to forget what we used to do that all the dot 3 & 4 oils they use now are hydroscopic and to throw out any fluid that is more than 12mths old and to change the fluid (together with the engine coolant) every year (when the rego is due is a good reminder).
It's all to do with temps and obviously any water that may be absorbed into the fluid will exhaserbate pitting of the master and slave cylinders plus cause overheating of the fluid at the callipers.
The joys of the modern motor vehicle - guess I just found m'self another job for next weekend.

Just thought I'd post this as an advisory to anyone else who might have thought as I did. Or am I the only one ????
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Reply By: Willem - Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 18:01

Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 18:01
Hi Cocka

As you are well aware, I too, am of the 'old' brigade.

Basically I think that all this new fangdanled stuff they try to put on to you is crap.

Sure change the oil in the diesel every 5000km and the filter every 10,000km but the gearbox, transfer and diff oils I would do evry five years unles you are douing lots of water crossings. Brakefluid once every 5 years and coolant now and then. If any of this stuff does go off it will take years for the metals to become corroded. Even if some seals go hard or leak because of old fluids, so what. Replace it when it is leaking.

Don't be conned by all the modern hype. They just want to sell you more gear and keep you worrying................
AnswerID: 72980

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 07:45

Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 07:45
willem, sorry mate it aint crap
oils are very thirsty for moisture (includes breakfluids)
you end up with a chemical reation when the oils change temperature and this creates acids which attack the metals...happens in fridges and airconditioners too but we do something that stops it (if done correctly)
Seen acidic oils so strong skin would be burnt if one touched the oil!...
Coolant with alloy radiators should be done every 24months at minimum
Brake fulids... wait till they dont pull you up and you'll suffer...
Start believing Willem!
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Reply By: Nino & Kerry (VIC) - Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 21:16

Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 21:16
G,day all
If you want to risk damage to your engine/gearbox/cooling system then fine, change the oils and coolent when you feel like it. However if you truely believe that your brake fluid is OK for 5 years, you are not only a fool but a dangerous fool.
500 ml of brake fluid costs $10.00 (ish) so is saving $40.00 over 5 years really worth it. I dought it.
If your engine blows up thats your problem. If you run up my arse because your brakes don't work, or worse still knock down a kid ??????
Just my rant. Cheers Nino.
AnswerID: 73013

Reply By: ev700 - Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 21:31

Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 21:31
Brake fluid always did take in water, that's the main reason why the metal in the brake master cylinder and wheel cylinders used to pit and destroy the rubber cups.

It was always an advisory to drain and replace the fluid after 'x' miles as preventive maintenance and also to prevent brake fade - which was common enough at the best of times. Used to be special 'one way valve' nipples you could install to make bleeding a bit easier.

As a young teen I used to do the maintenance in dad's delivery utes, which were Holdens FJ, FC et al. Back then we were forever replacing brake bits and pieces.

Nope, the old cars weren't all that good, but at least they were easy to work on. Their lousy suspensions, brakes, tyres and steering killed the odd few of my mates though :>(
AnswerID: 73016

Follow Up By: Willem - Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 22:29

Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 22:29
Well I have just disposed of my old G60 and didn't change the brakefluid in 6 years. I changed all the gear oils at the beginning of this year after 5.5 years. I replaced the wheel cylinders easly in my ownership as well as the brake shoes and experienced no brake fade. In fact the brakes were still good when she went to the new owner.

Yes I know that the old brake cylinders became pitted due to water ingestion but that usually took quite a while and by the time you got round to fixing it it was time to move on to the next car.

As for your mates getting killed on the road....it was probably due to driver error. More people(because there are more people) are killed on the road in modern cars these days and mostly by driver error.

I suppose preventative maintenance is the best thing if you want to keep your vehicle runnin g for a long time
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Follow Up By: ev700 - Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 23:42

Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 23:42
You are right, ultimately accidents are usually attributable in some way to driver error because they should have been driving to suit the prevailing conditions. The driver should take all variables into account.

However earlier cars were very unforgiving of driver error and the roads were generally poorer too. I don't think the 60's and 70's were glorious days of road safety and you may find that there were more fatalities and serious injuries then, relatively speaking.

My experience is that regular replacement of lubrication, hydraulic and cooling fluids is worthwhile insurance. Not that I am a saint in that respect either. I wish manufacturers would put bypass filters on crankcases and transmissions though, to extend service intervals and reduce the environmental impact.

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Reply By: Member - Brian (Gold Coast) - Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 21:41

Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 21:41
Bought myself an '89 Transporter as a work truck in 2001, about a year later the engine rusted out.... literally a rust hole appeared in the left head/cylinder area. Why?? Because the bloke that had it before me used the wrong coolant in the water cooled dub motor! The right coolant didn't promote corrosion from the three dissimilar metals in the engine. The wrong coolant did. If I had of checked into this, or routinely changed the coolant when I bought the car, I may have saved myself a lot of stress! You can bet that when we bought the Patrol, it got a thorough "change everything" service straight up!
Oh .... and for what it's worth, the oil filters get changed every service, otherwise whats the point of changing the oil???

YMMV
AnswerID: 73019

Reply By: Troopy Travellers (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 22:30

Tuesday, Aug 17, 2004 at 22:30
The Toyota dealer in my area now tells me that my toy car needs a wheel alignment every time I bring it in for service. Its a 2 year old Corolla ,mostly used for shopping trips, never goes off road.

When I say how come, they say "its caused by all the speed bumps in the shopping areas" I'm beginning to think this is a con. What do the learned forumites reckon??

Sparky.
AnswerID: 73024

Follow Up By: Member - Ruth D (QLD) - Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 07:08

Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 07:08
Well, that's a good one! Glad I live way out here - the roads are so bumpy all the time it's hard to tell what' s a bump or rattle.
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 07:47

Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 07:47
I might start up a wheel aligning shop hehehe
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Reply By: Member - Wim (Bris) - Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 10:13

Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 10:13
Cocka.

Interesting subject. At the time of my reply I cannot see any real "technical" reason to change the brake fluid.
Question: If from new and damage to brake system, how does the moisture get into the oil if the system remains sealed and why would the oil get hot?
I can understand if second hand, one might change all fluids.

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Follow Up By: Member - Wim (Bris) - Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 10:19

Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 10:19
Cocka.

Just checked Jack manual.
First fluid (all) change 80,000km but no coolant change.

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Follow Up By: Member - Cocka - Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 13:59

Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 13:59
Some interesting responses to this post. Sorting the wheat from the chaff & finding opinions that don't have vested interests is sometimes difficult but this forum always seems to be the thinking mans opinion & that's great, I just wish we got more responses from all the "viewers".
I'm not a chemical engineer, however the oils (which are highly modified) have taken on the charasteristic, be it not intentionally, of being "hydroscopic". IOW they suck up moisture from the atmosphere. I would guess that a source of this reaction could start at the fluid reservoir which is subject to expansion & contraction from the engine temps and which would have subtle movements of air through a breather and whenever you check the level. The moisture would disperse throughout the fluid.
Massive heat is created at the brakes (especially drums) hence the need for heat resistant fluids such as brake fluid (I think it's probably wrong to call it an oil). From what my brake expert tells me, if heavy braking is done with contaminated fluid, the fluid will boil and that's what causes brake fade, the fluid is cactus.
The Patrol manual says change at 40k kl or 24mths.

I guess its all about preventitive maintainance. Would insc. co's call you negligent if it was found that you failed to service your wagon according to "the manual" ??


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Follow Up By: Member - Wim (Qld) - Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 14:29

Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 14:29
Cocka.
As long as I can remember (30+years) brake fluid has been "hydroscopic".
Given todays disk brakes I wonder just hot the fluid gets.
Your right though getting to the wheat can be difficult even from the experts.
Keep us posted if you find any real technical answers.

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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 17:21

Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 17:21
heating and cooling just increases the rate of moisture adsorption or is that absorption...who cares eh!....
oils themselves without any influence have a high afinity for moisture.
With a brake system not being hermetically sealed the moisture is carried the the cap threads etc etc

now add the heating and cooling and expansion and contraction..(in the case of the later two....ever so slight it might be)...but it all adds up.
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Reply By: Max - Sydney - Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 20:31

Wednesday, Aug 18, 2004 at 20:31
Hey Guys

The problem ain't new. Back in '71, a bloke I worked with drove his automatic Holden down Brown's Mountain, and near the bottom ran out of brakes.

He managed to get the rest of the way down and headed for the first mechanic he could find. Guess what? The answer was: "Brake Fluid is hydroscopic, and with an auto and the heat of so much braking you boiled the water in your brake fluid". The mechanic repalced the fluid and no more trouble on that trip, despite the crappy brakes they put on Holdens in prehistoric times.

The advice then was to change your fluid every two years, same as it is now. Sure, you can get away with it often, but one day ...

:-) Max

AnswerID: 73143

Reply By: Baz (NSW) - Thursday, Aug 19, 2004 at 09:17

Thursday, Aug 19, 2004 at 09:17
Just a quick note that might help, my motorcycle (KTM 400 4 stroke) says brake fluid & coolent MUST be changed every 12 mths, oh and if ya think 5000k oil changes are a pain try an oil change every second ride and 4 oil filters 2 washible & 2 replacements and at $20.00 each !!!!!!

Baz.
AnswerID: 73213

Follow Up By: Member - Cocka - Thursday, Aug 19, 2004 at 09:44

Thursday, Aug 19, 2004 at 09:44
Yeah ! and it only carries one passenger, y' can't sleep in it, and every other b..s...t..d on the road wants to knock you off it.
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