Dare I say it...a 3.0TD Patrol question

Mine's a Sep 2001 (from the internal plates, not registered date) 3.0lt and it does not have the clear upper lenses. The latter appeared around Nov 2001 - Jan 2002. No problems whatsoever at the moment.

Captain,
We have just had a member of our club with a blown engine Nov 2000 3.0L, same as you I thought that was the early ones but Nissan said that was already the one with increased number of sensors etc (ie: they did not have to replace the loom).
As for other changes to the engine (besides the sump capacity which was only a change of deep stick) he asked Nissan to confirm if/what are the changes and he cannot get a reply.
Do you know what the changes are? first hand from Nissan?
It is starting to look like that there are no changes to the engine itself (from what he as heard).

Hi GUPatrol,

My believe is that there was no change to the series II motor other than the shorter dipstick. Of all cases I have heard about of series II failure, the wiring loom has to be changed and the ECU replaced when the series III motor is installed.

I cannot see how a new series III motor can be installed in the Nov 2000 GU without a new (or modified) wiring loom, unless its simply a rebuilt series II motor (without the extra sensors or modified oil feed system)!!! The Nissan blurp at the time listed something like 23 (or 27) "major" changes to the series III engine including oil galleries, oil pickups (two now I believe), extra sensors etc... Would be interesting to check the engine number of your mates 3.0TD and see its age!

I cannot get any firsthand info from Nissan, all info is second hand and needs to be judged accordingly. The more I hear the same info from different sources, the more likley its reliable info.

But I am conviced there are major changes between the series II and III. The main "proof" of that is that in Europe the first 3.0TD engine was recalled and replaced with the new one. No manufacturer would do that if there weren't major changes to it. Australia took the cheap option and handed out the shorter dipstick.

Would love to get hold of Nissans data on actual number of failures of series II engine failure, what changes were made etc... but more secrecy than FBI unfortunately.

Cheers

Captain

Thanks Captain,
I will pass this info...
They did not replace his wiring loom, his already had the new wiring loom with all the extra sensors (that is what they said), it is a new engine but will ask him to check the engine number...
The thing now is that nobody can ascertain that there are any changes and what the changes are, and Nissan only gives 20000kms warranty with the new engine, after that you are on your own....
Thanks for the info.

Hi Peter,

Yep, the 3.0TD is basically a Renault design, not a rumour. But how much Nissan modified it is unknown.

Cheers

Captain

The link for the above announcement from Nissan is here:
http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/HOME/0,1305,SI9-LO3-MC92-IFN-CH120,00.html

That announcement means that all the rumours about this engine being used for vans in europe for a long time is not true either, at best it has been used for as long as it has been in the Patrol/Navara.

These are the kind of facts I would like to see about changes to this engine in later versions (ie: series 3) not rumours...

Hi GUPatrol,

It all depends on your point of view! While Nissan build the engines, I understand they were a Renault design and that Nissan has an agreement to build them and also supply to Renault. Well, thats my understanding as I have interpreted from many different sources, but agree its not a Nissan press release.

Once carmakers get into bed with each other, it all becomes so twisted that it is not easy to sort fact from fiction, particuarly when the companies involved want to portray a particular image (Nissan had a reputation for good reliable diesel motors and it makes sense to capitalise on it).

As for the "age" of the design, its a bit like the grandfathers axe, if you change the axe head and the axe handle several times in its lifespan, when is it no longer grandfathers original axe?

I understand your desire to find factual information, so do I. But the problem is the carmakers do not want to give the information out, they have an image to protect and cultivate. Hence one has to read between the lines and make value judgements as to what is the "facts". Unfortunately it is never black and white, only shades of grey.

Cheers

Captain

Hi Will,

Just a few questions ah ;-)

First of all, your engine number is ~9,500 higher than mine so one can safely assume its a new engine, not a reconditioned one. As for "definite nissan info not hear say and word of mouth", this is the problem, Nissan simply do not give out info and one has to rely on what they see, read and hear. Then one has to place value judgements on the reliability of the info. The same way you will have to on this info!

As for the recall in Europe, I read that on many forums and heard from many people who I consider reliable. But definitive proof could probably be sought by tracking down the relevant govt transport website and look for a recall notice.

As for the wiring loom change, this does make sense. I am sure Nissan would have made some changes to motors post mid 2000 as this was when the sump increase (dipstick change!) was done. Thus new Aussie vehicles post mid 2000 would probably have received ECU mods with extra sensors to try and improve reliability (my guess is limit fuel load if engine temp exceeds a certain limit). Other changes that I have heard about (not from Nissan) include larger oil galleries, more/increased piston oil sprays, dual oil pump pickups, extra sensors etc... While I believe this to be the case, it is not confirmed from Nissan sources.

As for 704 C exhaust temp, this is not that hot IMHO, especially compared to petrol engine exhausts, they can be considerably hotter (like 850+C). The holed pistons are caused by excess temp, but the extra oil sprays should have a significant impact on this. Exhaust gas temp alone is not a true indication of piston temp. Oil temp plays a big factor here, particularly when oil sprays are used to cool pistons.

Speaking of oil, I believe this to be a contributor to some of the failed motors. Nissan specifically states to use CF4 oil and NOT CG4. The reason behind this is that CG4, even though a "higher" spec, has a lower ash (detergent) content. If the higher spec CG4 was used, this could lead to high oil gallery deposits due to the lower ash content. Add to this that the Aussie spec for diesel was 1,500ppm sulphur content at the time while Europe had 50ppm, then you can start to see some of the problems being faced.

CG4 oil is not that easy to come by (go check your local servo or even auto shop and see if you can find any!!!), all local stock is typically a higher grade. Synlube (an advertiser on this forum) specially formulated an oil to specifically meet the grade Nissan 3.0TD's require as it simply is not readily available.

Australia now has a 500ppm max sulphur content and this lowers to 50ppm by 2006. It is this reason why we are starting to see high performance diesels become available in Australia, the dirty Aussie diesel simply did not allow for the high tech engines. I only fill up at Shell or BP as these outlets offer low sulphur (<50ppm) diesel already.

While the 3.0TD has a specified oil interval of 10,000kms, I religiously change my oil every 5,000kms. It is perhaps the cheapest insurance for long engine life one can get. I would recommend you do this on your new engine. And do NOT use CG4 either!!!

As for a compression test a sign of engine failure, I do not believe this will show anything for the type of failure of the series II engine (just my opinion - not fact). Even if a piston has minor pock marks from excess temp, a compression test would never show this up.

I tow my van (1.6T) and have also done 22,000. It also gets a good workout as a offroad 4WD and is driven hard (between use as a daily commutor). I do not beileve the series III engine has any of the problems the series II had. However, it is still prone to sensor failures (airflow) and EGR valve failure, but not any more than other vehicles with these parts.

The 3.0TD engine has got a bad reputation but I do believe this is not warranted for the series III. There are many examples around with over 200,000kms with no issues at all. In fact I have yet to hear of one series III failure from the OWNER (not the sisters brothers uncles mate!!!), unlike the series II who I have heard form many owners (like yourself).

While engine failure of series II is high, as a percentage of vehicles sold its low (~10% according to a poll on another forum, but thats FAR from accurate as disgruntled owners are more likely to seek out the forum). But engine faiulure should be less than 0.0% at the age they are going so their is no question something is not right.

So, my opinion is that Nissan got caught out introducing a high tech engine while Australia still had poor quality diesel (plus simply poor design for high ambient temp climate amongst other things). While I believe they have gotten on top of the problem now, there is still the legacy of the series II 3.0TD's out there. Nissan currently replace them out of warranty now, but for how long? And at what cost to their customer base due to disgrunteld series II owners!!!

Cheers

Captain

Captain,

You say:
"I understand your desire to find factual information, so do I. But the problem is the carmakers do not want to give the information out, they have an image to protect and cultivate. Hence one has to read between the lines and make value judgements as to what is the "facts". Unfortunately it is never black and white, only shades of grey"

In that case, why mislead people in this forum who are asking if the later ones are clear when in fact nobody knows yet... That is why I am trying to find out.

Secondly, It is not my engine, I don't have a 3.0L Patrol, it is AlanF who is a friend of mine, your reply should have gone to him.

As far as the exhaust temps. You cannot compare to a petrol engine... 600c EGT in a diesel is borderline, any higher causes damage which accumulates slowly.
The only possible change to that engine that seems feasible (and could be true) is ceramic coated pistons....
FYI I have the workshop manual for that engine and recently I had the oportunity to compare the early engines and the later specs and it does not show any changes whatsoever ie: oil galleries, oil pickups etc....
My advise to everyone in this forum is don't asume, get the facts before advising people on which ones are the reliable ones (if any)....

Hi GUPatrol,

My mistake for addressing the 2nd reply to you Will, it was meant for AlanF. Just a bit tired when posting I guess, didn't mean to upset you.

But I take exception to your comment that I "mislead people in this forum", all I have done is post what I have read, seen or heard and stated as such. If you don't like it, thats your call, but thats what these forums are for - the exchange of what we have heard/read/know when we cannot get the information directly. If Nissan, and other manufacturers, had an open door policy, none of this would be neccessary. As for your link to the Nissan website quoting the Renault Engine agreement, do you believe the whole lot as fact, or has a PR spin been put on it to suit the image they are trying to cultivate?

Think about this, so many series II engines have failed that no-one is disputing they have issues. I have corresponded with many owners directly and have confidence in their information. However, I have yet to be able to find a single OWNER of a series III with a failed engine. If there are no differences, as you are implying, why are there no failures yet (or even if there are some out there, why the greatly reduced number), they have done more then the mileage when the series II started to fail.

Obviously something is different between the two engines. And I would like to know what these differences are. No good asking Nissan, so I hit the web. And when others ask, I post what I have found. I have never claimed to have some hotline to Nissan, just simple research trying to find answers for myself. Many times I have come across contradictry information and I simply make value judgements on it. You should simply do the same to what I post. My posts are all in good faith, but at the end of the day they may contain errors I am not aware of!!!

As for not comparing petrol with diesel engines, why not!!! You are implying that a diesel piston cannot handle "high" temps, yet petrol engines can - and petrol pistons are NOT ceramic pistons (well, not the majority). I was simply trying to show how that one can easily make any piston handle that temperature, its not rocket science!!!

Look, we are both trying to find out the true facts about the differences in the 3.0TD engine. I simply post what I have found to date and believe to be true. I have NO vested interest in talking up the GU 3.0TD (not even resale, my work pays any price difference when I change over). This is my first Nissan and of my last 8 vehicles, I have had 7 different makes. I simply choose whatever vehicle suits my needs at the time. This time the GU 3.0TD suited me the best and I still reckon its a great vehicle, warts and all!!!

Cheers

Captain

Captain,

I am sure your replies are in good faith, and it seems to me we are all trying to find out what the facts are, so we are all in the same line, I don't own a 3.0L, but I recommended it to several of my friends and now I feel like I can do something to help if I can find out what the differences are on the new ones.

With regards to EGT and Diesel-Petrol, you cannot compare them. You need to know more about why a diesel exhaust temperature is much lower than that of a petrol, why a diesel is more efficient and why high EGT are so important in a diesel.
Read the following article as a starting point:
http://www.bankspower.com/Tech_whyegt.cfm

Hi GUPatrol,

Glad we agree that we both are simply seeking the facts as we find them :)

Just a minor point, I am not trying to compare diesel and petrol EGT's in regards to engine performance. What I am trying to say is that the material a petrol piston is made from has to withstand higher temperatures than the alloy a diesel piston does. Hence a diesel piston "may" be made from an inferior metal alloy, but there is no technical reason why a diesel piston cannot withstand a higher temp (unless inferior alloy???) - thats all.

Cheers

Captain

I live in South Africa and have a 2002 3.0 diesel turbo patrol, engine number ZD 30105736. The car has done 80,000 km (I got it from the dealer when it had 28,000km) I would say about 15,000 km of the mileage I have done has been offroad (say 4,000 km of fairly serious stuff in Botswana) and the balance has been on highways and around town. I have had no problems with the car and it really is a formidable off-road vehicle which is comfortable on long journeys. I service it with the dealer every 7,500 km & can honestly say that I have been happy with the vehicle. I had a gauge fitted which monitors the EGT and the temperature seldom goes above 600 degrees - If you go at about 130 km per hour on a flat road the temperature is about 480 to 500. If you nail it up steep hills the temperature goes to about 620. I have not towed anything with the vehicle. Can anyone confirm that the above engine number is the newer engine where they have sorted out the initial problems. Has anyone fitted a glind hot water shower supply to there patrol and does it work okay ?

Thanks

Nick