Soldering wire re posting 16003

Submitted: Sunday, Sep 05, 2004 at 15:50
ThreadID: 16044 Views:3522 Replies:4 FollowUps:5
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Hi all and please exuse me for posting this reply twice but if you read this after you read posting 16003, you will undersatnd.
The basis for the posting is to supply some correct info. The original reply is as follows.

First off, thanks Mainey, the first sites I have been to by the Powerstream is a site I have not seen before, thanks again and you demon straight what these forums are intended for, to learn from and to help others learn and once more thanks Mainey.

NOW as to the rocket scientist Cockup, I don’t know what your back ground is nor does it matter when it comes to replying to someone else’s posting. If you think I’m wrong AND I’M NOT then reply with some manors.
I have more than 25 years of automotive electronics under my belt, but having stated repeatedly in other postings, that I still find there is lots to be learnt both in the real world and in the cyber world, so if I’m wrong and someone wants to correct me, go for it as this is the best way for every body to learn.

To your sarcastic and UNOBSERVANT reply. The statement about MOST vehicles having a big earth wire going from the battery’s earth terminal the the engine is only partly right and for the very opposite reason you put forward. The next time you look at a vehicles engine, ANY and EVERY ( not most as you so put it ) engine has that big earth wire connected to it and thats because the earth returning to the battery via the chassis DOES NOT WORK for large current devices. Now Cockup, next time your under the bonnet ( and I would not recommend YOU do that to often ) have a look at the engine, any engine, and you will OBSERVE this big roundy thingy attached to the engine somewhere. This big roundy thingy is called a starter motor and it uses huge amounts of current that for many decades now, the motor companies have realised needs to have a decent positive and NEGATIVE to work properly. Thats why the big wire is there D’OH. It won’t work properly if you try to bring the earth back through the chassis.

So next time you have a remark about a posting try doing it civilly even if you can’t be right and that way, even though you are wrong someone else will most likely post an equally civil reply and point out your error. NO MORE NO LESS.

No professional installer would use the chassis as an earth return for high current applications ( not unless he was a tight A”” and was trying to save a few pennies ). As to how each individual does his own thing, thats your choice and all I’m doing is giving info that you can take or leave. I don’t set out to take the Mickey out of someone because I might not agree with there comments BUT if some no-brainer wants to have a go at me, “life’s short so I’m always ready for a laugh”

There were a couple of postings about soldering wire in vehicles.
If you are going to be joining low current wires then you can get away with just soldering. If you are going to be fixing wire intended to carry high currents then you should crimp terminal or screw terminal the connections where ever possible because high current joints have a resistance and this resistance can very very easily cause the wire joint or connection to heat up. The heat does not have to be that high for the solder only joint to let go. Note the heat does not have to get any where near the melting point of solder, solder’s strength reduces rapidly as the wires heat increases.
If you want to solder, use non sheathed crimp terminals and after crimping them to the wire then solder the crimp joint.

Regards all, you to Cockup
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Reply By: Utemad - Sunday, Sep 05, 2004 at 16:32

Sunday, Sep 05, 2004 at 16:32
Interesting you mention the solder joint failure due to heat. As I am sure you know that in some high current situations (like heater fan control boxes) they actually use a solder joint as a fuse. Having two sprung pieces of metal soldered together so they spring apart when they get really hot.
However I would still prefer to solder as crimped terminals can go bad when in adverse conditions such as salty air. Although you can as you said crimp then solder.

The problem with auto electrics is it looks so easy people give it a go. However if you don't do it properly first go in can be a real PITA to fault find and fix it.

I have also seen car radios installed with no earth at all. People have wired it up and it worked without needing an earth. As the power earth is going through the case up the antenna wire and into the guard. Funny to see.
AnswerID: 75224

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Sunday, Sep 05, 2004 at 17:38

Sunday, Sep 05, 2004 at 17:38
Hi Utemad, we do about 30,000 crimp termination a year and never have a problem, but you raise a very good point that I should have mentioned in my previous posting. You should use the correct crimping tool and by that I don’t mean the one that came in the assorted crimp terminal pack.
We use the spring tensioned ratchet type so that the correct pressure is applied to the terminal.
I have no problem with soldering after you crimp and all the connections in my own vehicles are done that way but this will only slow the corrosion. If you want to do a corrosion proof and water resistant connection, after you finish the termination, and if you have also soldered it, clean the joint and then coat it with a lanolin bases product. Great stuff even for protecting bear metal too.
If you have a look around your vehicle, no matter what make it is I’ll bet every connection is a crimp terminal type with maybe two exceptions and they are the two battery terminals as they are usually screw terminations.
Someone also mentioned putting heat shrink on the joint and this is another good idea as long as you again clean it first.
By the way I’m referring more to wire connections that are going to be carrying high currents.
Regards and Thanks for that reminder Utemad.
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FollowupID: 335001

Follow Up By: Utemad - Sunday, Sep 05, 2004 at 18:01

Sunday, Sep 05, 2004 at 18:01
Drivesafe,

30,000 crimps/yr!!! Remind me never to shake your hand. I don't want mine broken from your crimp muscles LOL.

I also use Lanolin on my car. I use it everywhere. From on bolt threads to general rust proofing and giving extra life to electric motors.

I have only had two solder joints fail in my vehicles (that I know of). One was from mechanical stress. It was not a good joint to start with as it was in a bugger of a spot up under the dash and it snapped as solder joints are rigid unlike the rest of the cable.
The other was as you have mentioned, from corrosion. Although it was on a boat trailer. It was an untinned section of the copper cable that snapped right in line with the edge of the insulation.

In the past I have lanolinned some joints but not all (generally because I cannot find my lanolin bottle). It is an excellent idea to put a squirt or two in your trailer connector (trailer and vehicle) as there is nothing more annoying then opening someones connector to see why a connection isn't working and finding it all corroded with rusty screws.

I agree that those ratchet crimpers are the way to go. I have a set and they are great. Although my favourite are the plier crimped terminals. The ones that fall off when you touch them LOL.

I borrowed from an old workplace those big (can't remember the name) crimpers for the battery cables with the rotating jaws to get the right size crimper. Look like bolt cutters. I used them for my dual battery setup as I have 32mm square cable.

What I do find interesting is that the corroded solder joint is something I discovered while playing with my vehicle and was never warned about it by the more learned guys where I used to work (don't do that stuff anymore. Chucked it all in to go back to uni).

Thanks for the reminder about corroded solder joints. I used to solder thinking I was being good but now we know there is more to it than that.

Cheers,

Utemad
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FollowupID: 335003

Reply By: Nudenut - Monday, Sep 06, 2004 at 10:03

Monday, Sep 06, 2004 at 10:03
cable joints get hot due to one reason...the contact suface area (between cable strands to lug suface) is too small to handle the current load...
the heat causes oxidation and from here we begin to get a compounding effect ultimately leading to high resitance. Soldering is to increase the suface contact area. There-fore if done correctly (size of cable and lug is adequate to disperse heat) soldering should be ok....

To really get a good joint on larger type cables and lugs use 45% silver solder to join lug to cable? But this probably causes another set of problems
AnswerID: 75290

Reply By: Crazie - Monday, Sep 06, 2004 at 10:31

Monday, Sep 06, 2004 at 10:31
Hey Drivesafe

Thanks for the monday morning laugh, I had to go back and read the original posting. I am sure this wasn't meant to be an amussing posting but I had a great laugh, thanks
AnswerID: 75299

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Monday, Sep 06, 2004 at 18:11

Monday, Sep 06, 2004 at 18:11
Hi Crazie, It was meant to be amusing but I do apologise to all.
This is not the place for personal quips but I could not help myself.
The point was actually about an incorrect statement and if anyone is going to be doing any work as was covered in the postings, if your not sure go and talk to a professional before you do a thing.
You could save yourself a lot of money.
Thanks for the reply Crazie and I am glad you got a laugh, Regards
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FollowupID: 335120

Reply By: Wisey (NSW) - Monday, Sep 06, 2004 at 17:24

Monday, Sep 06, 2004 at 17:24
Hi Drivesafe,

I have just bought a "tube/ syringe " of 'solder eze' for the tool box. Any thoughts as to how good/bad it is for temporary fixing when away from the shed
AnswerID: 75353

Follow Up By: drivesafe - Monday, Sep 06, 2004 at 18:02

Monday, Sep 06, 2004 at 18:02
Hi wisey, I have never used the liquid type solders but as long as it has a good quality flux mixed with it and you have an iron that can generate a fairly high heat, I should imagine it will do most jobs well.
Sorry i can’t be of more help.
Regards
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FollowupID: 335119

Follow Up By: Utemad - Monday, Sep 06, 2004 at 22:48

Monday, Sep 06, 2004 at 22:48
Is this the stuff you can put on the join and then melt with a lighter?

I once used normal 60/40 cored solder and a lighter to fix someones wiring while away. Just wrapped the solder around the join and heated it til it looked good. As far as I know he still has left it like that.
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FollowupID: 335163

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