solar panels

Submitted: Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 14:10
ThreadID: 17159 Views:3618 Replies:12 FollowUps:5
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Hi All,

Does anyone have comment in relation to the advantages / disadvantages of using solar panels with the specific intention of keeping second battery charged for fridge use purposes.

How does this compare to perhaps purchasing a deep cycle battery that does not take as much time to recharge?

Thanks, Nigel
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Reply By: Member - Chris M (QLD) - Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 14:24

Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 14:24
Nigel,

Solar panels with lots of sun will only put out about 6amps from memory, so whilst your fridge is running and using a minimum of say 3amps, your only putting 3amps into the battery.

I'm no expert on this subject, but I did watch the antics of my father in law who tried to stop his dual battery system from running flat on a cloudy day. He had a hinged 'fold up' dual solar panel and honda genny. Needless to say, he had the amp meter running in series with the line, which showed anything including the panel getting to hot (out of the cool breeze) caused it to underperform.

In my case, I have two High CCA batteries with long amp hour life, run the fridge around 3, keep the windows slightly open if hot and a towel stopping the sun from beating down on it. This will stop the compressor from having to work so hard. Then, I have a Glind Shower, the missus and I shower every night and the truck will run for around 30 minutes to firstly warm up. For the Glind to work effectively, I need to run the motor at around 1000, which is enough to excite the alternator into action. So when I'm showering, the batteries are charging. This is enough everyday to ensure no flat batteries...and worst case, I have the isolator allowing me to join both batteries simply by pushing a button to allow the donk to turn over...not that this has happened touch wood.

Good luck mate, indirectly an answer I think.

P.S - those 'thumper' battery packs are pretty good as well...

Cheers

Chris.
AnswerID: 80858

Reply By: cruiser - Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 14:54

Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 14:54
I to have a solar panel that i thought would help solve the problem of the aux battery getting to low when in 1 spot and running my Waeco (Danfross DB50 compressor)

I have since found out that it only just copes with the situation. What I have done is purchase a 12V timer that I have built into a box with a male connector on one end and a female connector on the other. I then plug the unit it into my vehicle and then the fridge into it to get the power. The 12V timer has the following settings available for the day (a) individual day (b) Mon-Friday (c) Sat- Sun (d) Mon-Wed-Frid (e) Tues-Thur and (f) everyday. I then can program in up to 8 On/Off sequences into any of those choices.

This then allows me to control when power is available to the fridge and therefore extends the amount of time I can get out of a fully charged battery and therefore how much time I can spend in one place without resorting to running the car or using the solar panel.

Depending on the day/weather etc, I generally make power available for a period of 2 hours on, 2 hours off and no power at all between 10PM and 7AM each day.

Works a treat.

AnswerID: 80867

Reply By: nigeld - Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 15:19

Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 15:19
Chris and cruiser,

Thanks for taking the time to reply - always best to speak with the experienced.

Cruiser - any particular place I can pick up that 12V timer? Seems like a great idea and reduces the requirement to keep checking the fridge every '10 mins'.

AnswerID: 80873

Follow Up By: cruiser - Wednesday, Oct 20, 2004 at 10:21

Wednesday, Oct 20, 2004 at 10:21
Nigeld

Try calling Brian England at Self Sufficiency Supplies Pty Ltd on 02 6562 7704

He sells the 12V timer for $65.00 Inc GST plus freight. He will take a credit card over the phone.
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FollowupID: 340243

Reply By: Member - Brian (WA) - Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 15:20

Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 15:20
Hi Nigel
I use solor power when I go out. You do need panels big enough. If you only have
a 3amp panel and are using 3amps you have no power spare to top up the batts
for night time use.I run 2x40lt engels+lights and have 3x75watt panels for power.
turn engels down at night you do not need them going flat but do not keep going
into them.
Hope this helps
brian
AnswerID: 80874

Reply By: Blackie - Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 17:02

Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 17:02
Have a look at this.
http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/articles/index.htm
This guy is the Sultan of Solar, The Prince of Panels and the Wizard of Wires.
AnswerID: 80896

Follow Up By: Wok - Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 18:25

Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 18:25
Thanks for the link....I now have to rethink about AGM batteries!...more electronics needed. It would seem that the Redarc is not suitable if an AGM is the aux battery..............hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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FollowupID: 340165

Reply By: Vince NSW - Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 17:20

Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 17:20
Nigel,
We discovered a BIG disadvantage with the panels on a recent trip to the Cooper.
Apart from the very high cost, they can be broken by rocks thrown up and landing on the panel (in this case on the roof of the camper). One US solar system
Vince
AnswerID: 80898

Reply By: Member - Michael B (NSW) - Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 19:09

Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 19:09
Nigel.
Blackie is spot on ,this guy is a seriously smart dude when it comes to solar.
Have just got back from Melb. tonight and specified as per his book for my Trackmaster van. Buy the book, its worth it
Mike B
AnswerID: 80921

Reply By: Magnus - Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 22:47

Tuesday, Oct 19, 2004 at 22:47
Nigel,

There is heaps of info in the net re Solar and how to use it. The gent in question has written extensively about using solar but he is just one of the many sources that are available.

Most of the American sources are full of info regarding serious use of solar power.

An hour of searching using broadband will turn up far more info than you will need.

At the end of the day, Solar is expensive. You will need a serious installation to feed a 12 volt fridge draw and provide extra to charge your battery.

Think in terms of generating 5 - 6 amps, say a 100 watt panel. 16 volts output at 6 amps is 100 watts. Solar panels do not put out 12 volts, most are 16 - 18 volts.

2 x 50 watt panels will set you back $1000 plus $150 for a good controller. Or better still 2 x 65 watt panels will cost $1150. Plus controller etc etc. And they are big. A 65 watt panel is 1110 x 502 (mm). Not small.

But they will do the job.

Also, most sites will tell you that Solar requires Deep Cycle. End of story. They go together.

Also deep cycle have special charging requirements and need 3 stage chargers when not on solar and should have a top of the line solar controller.

In addition, you may never get a deep cycle fully charged through your vehicle charging system. You need to do some detailed homework on how deep cycle batteries are charged and how vehicle alternators cope with them.

The first thing to match up is the required charge rate of your chosen deep cycle battery from the battery manufacturer and the output of your vehicle alternator. No match, you have problems, espec if vehicle output is too low.

Have fun.

Cheers

Magnus.

PS I use solar and have done for some years, but run a gas fridge not a 12 volt one. Matched with sealed Deep Cycle batteries, have never run out of power. Also. I do not use a generator.

AnswerID: 80960

Follow Up By: Member - Collyn R (WA) - Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 at 11:01

Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 at 11:01
Thank you to the people kind enough to mention me and my books in connection with solar.

Magnus is of course absolutely right when he says that there's any number of sources of information - but sadly only too many can be unintentionally misleading.

The main problem is that, unlike most things electrical, what should work just fine by following a few basic electrical principles, does not necessarily work with solar. This is actually a field where no prior knowledge can actually be preferable.

I'll attempt to answer any queries on this Forum - but meanwhile here's a few things to consider:

1. Solar module produce a lot less that you may think.

Working into a typical 12/24 volt system, (unless a very sophisticated device called a 'multiple power point tracker' is included solar modules do not and cannot produce their apparanetly claimed output. Reality is about 65-70% of what is says on the box.

2. A typical deep-cycle battery is (typically) good for less than 50% of its apparant amp/hour capacity.

Charged via a standard vehicle alternator/regulator, a conventional lead-acid battery rarely if ever exceeds 70% full charge. A 100 amp/hour battery is thus rarely charged beyond 70 amp/hours.

It cannot be discharged much below 40% remaining charge without incurring damage. Most battery makers quote 50% maximum.

3. Almost everyone who does their own wiring uses cable that's at least 50% too small.

Why? Because appliance makers specify the cable to be used in square mm; but the auto cable invariably used is specified as the overall diameter in millimetres - insulation as well. In other words Engel tells you the conductor size to use - the auto parts store sells you cable rated by the size hole it will pass through.

Example. 4 mm auto cable (which is what is you'll get if you ask for 4 mm cable) is usually 1.8 - 2.0 sq mm.

That's why most of your 12 volt fridges disappoint.

I do go along with Magnus view re gas fridges. It makes sense (unless you are driving most days) as any electrical fridge is responsible for about 60%-70% of total draw.

Finally - solar can be made to work extraordinarily well if implemented properly. It is not hard to do, but one has to very wary of campfire mythology and most magazine articles on the subject.

The problem is not so much what people don't know. It's what they think they know that simply isn't true.

My home north of Broome is all-solar (2.2 kW of solar modules for the main system) a further dedicated 480 watts (at 48 volts and driving a three-phase brushless motor) for our 3000 litre/hour swimming pool pump.

Our OKA has used solar since 1996 for its 70-litre autofridge, umptgeen halogen globes and, until recently, a big Westinghouse sat phone - and has not run out of power once.

Collyn Rivers
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FollowupID: 340563

Follow Up By: Magnus - Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 at 12:42

Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 at 12:42
Nigel,

Take particular note of Collyn's point re wiring. He is definitely not making that up. The basic formulae behind electricity and how it works fully supports what he says.

Electrical standards in USA Australia and UK all specify a set maximum Voltage Drop for high (240, 110 etc) volt installations. The principles do not change just because it is 12 volts, In fact for many 12 volt installations it is even more critical to have the max volts u can deliver.

The whole voltage drop deal can be tested yourself with a simple digital - to 2 places - ammeter/voltmeter that u buy from Super Cheap for $20 and some lengths of cable.

In summary, it does not make a lot of sense to spend $1,000 on an Engel etc and $5 on wiring when it should have been $50 to $100 on wiring.

If you are spending less than $2 a meter for your wiring (single run not figure 8) then you are probably under wiring and your 12 volt fridge will under perform as a result. You need two runs not one, one +ve and one -ve. No earth to the chassis if you want it to work properly!!

Hope you come to a satisfactory landing on all this. The more homework and preparation you do at an early stage the more you will enjoy your trips as all will go nicely (most of the time)

Cheers

Magnus

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FollowupID: 340566

Reply By: motherhen - Wednesday, Oct 20, 2004 at 00:23

Wednesday, Oct 20, 2004 at 00:23
We ran a fridge and lights from a combination of deep cycle battery charged by car when travelling, and a portable solar panel placed to face the sun (inevitably in the shade by the time we got back from a walk) when camped. The solar seemed to charge quicker than the car. It was in NW with no cloudy days.
AnswerID: 80976

Reply By: nigeld - Wednesday, Oct 20, 2004 at 11:16

Wednesday, Oct 20, 2004 at 11:16
Thank you everybody for your huge amount of imput. I have a lot of research to do I think, taking into account all the detail provided.

Interesting that there are varied views. Thanks All.
AnswerID: 80995

Follow Up By: Magnus - Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 at 12:41

Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 at 12:41
Nigel,

Take particular note of Collyn's point re wiring. He is definitely not making that up. The basic formulae behind electricity and how it works fully supports what he says.

Electrical standards in USA Australia and UK all specify a set maximum Voltage Drop for high (240, 110 etc) volt installations. The principles do not change just because it is 12 volts, In fact for many 12 volt installations it is even more critical to have the max volts u can deliver.

The whole voltage drop deal can be tested yourself with a simple digital - to 2 places - ammeter/voltmeter that u buy from Super Cheap for $20 and some lengths of cable.

In summary, it does not make a lot of sense to spend $1,000 on an Engel etc and $5 on wiring when it should have been $50 to $100 on wiring.

If you are spending less than $2 a meter for your wiring (single run not figure 8) then you are probably under wiring and your 12 volt fridge will under perform as a result. You need two runs not one, one +ve and one -ve. No earth to the chassis if you want it to work properly!!

Hope you come to a satisfactory landing on all this. The more homework and preparation you do at an early stage the more you will enjoy your trips as all will go nicely (most of the time)

Cheers

Magnus

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FollowupID: 340565

Reply By: Member - Collyn R (WA) - Monday, Oct 25, 2004 at 10:12

Monday, Oct 25, 2004 at 10:12
By far the best way of determining voltage drop is by measuring it. The following way is quick and simple and is sufficiently accurate using a cheap voltmeters.

1. With the fridge turned fully on, measure the voltage directly across the terminals of the battery that is supplying it.

2. Directly after, measure the voltage across the fridge - as close as you can get to that fridge.

Ideally the difference should be be no more than 0.15 - 0.2 of a volt. The max is 0.3 volt but fridge performance will then suffer. (Do not be surprised to find that it's well over 0.5 volt).

The following will help you select the correct cable size bearing in mind that the system will only work reliably if you use two cables: one for positive, another for negative. Thus, in the sum below, a fridge three metres from the battery will need at least six metres of cable.

Total Conductor Length (in metres) X maximum current (in amps) X 0.017.

Dividing the answer by the proposed conductor size (cross sectional area in sq mm) gives the exact voltage drop.

For example: 6 (metres) X 10 (amps) X 0.017 = 1.02.

Here, 4.00 sq mm cable will result in a voltage drop of 0.255. Acceptable, but if 8 sq mm were to be used the drop would be 0.13. This will not cost an arm and a leg - but you will simply be amazed at the improvement in fridge performance.

(But if you have used 4 mm auto cable then the drop will be at least 0.5 volt and more likely 0.6 volt.)

There are no meaningful comparisons between auto cable and cable sizes in sq mm except that 4 mm autocable is usually less than 2.00 sq mm; 6 mm autocable is usually a tad over 4.5 sq mm; and 8 mm autocable is very close to an actual 8 sq mm.

Do not assume that the fridge cable itself is adequate. If possible replace the whole wiring right up to the fridge. An electrician friend of mine even replaced the cable inside the fridge (and picked up another 0.1 volt as a result).
Collyn Rivers

AnswerID: 81524

Reply By: nigeld - Monday, Oct 25, 2004 at 10:33

Monday, Oct 25, 2004 at 10:33
Thanks Collyn for your most helpful advice and expert information. I will follow this all through and see how I go.

Thanks again, Nigel
AnswerID: 81527

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