Navara TD (with the works) or Standard Patrol TD

Submitted: Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:07

ThreadID: 17202 Views:4214 Replies:11 FollowUps:24

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Fusion

G'day Guys,

I'm looking to graduate from an X-trail soon. I've done the clutch once rock hopping near mini waters (but no underbody damage ;) And recently got close to being stuck (again near mini) in soft sand with rising tides. The 4wd system was overheating, in the soft stuff futher up the beach, an turning off. The X-trail doesn't go too well in soft sand with 2wd. Great car for soft core offroading though.

Now my question. I'm looking to buy a new 4wd with a budget of around $50,000 would I be better off with:

Navara STR TD ($37,500 + onroad RRP)
Air lockers front and back ($3000 RRP - available on Navara TD if it has R200A (V6)diff - I'm told some do, I haven't checked with Nissan yet)
OME suspension 50mm lift allround. ($2000 ie leafs, torsions, shocks etc)
Canopy (hope to convert free hard tonneau to nissan canopy)
Cruise Control (Autron $750)
Cooper ATR's ($500 with standard bridys for trade in)
Steel Bullbar (ARB $1500)
Winch ($1500)
Rear Bar and protection ($1000)
Driving Lights ($500)
Snorkel ($500)
Roller Draw system in back ($1800)
+ other gear $1500.

or

Standard Patrol ST 3.0 TD ($52,000 + onroad RRP)

I understand the Patrol will be more comfy, and have a better resale, not big issues here. I also understand the Patrol will have a bit better ultimate 4wd capability, but I imagine a diff locked and lifted Navara will beat a stock Patrol any time? I'm looking to have a vehicle to travel anywhere, anytime with 1 tonne camper on the back.

Note: prices above are only my estimates, not quotes from anywhere.

Thanks,

Aaron.

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Reply By: Utemad - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:14

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:14

I have seen a front diff locked IFS hilux not get as far as a standard 3.0 Patrol. Although I am sure that they have different benefits in different terrain. Different drivers too.

Where do you intend on taking it? If it is just the beach a stock Navara will be fine.

AnswerID: 81092

Follow Up By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:20

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:20

The Hilux was only front locked ;) Good point though, as far as I am aware the Patrol will give me far better wheel travel with live axels front and back. I was hoping an OME suspension lift would provide more wheel travel for the poor IFS front on the Navara.

Over the next couple of years we plan to get all over the country, including plenty of the more difficult areas. ie Canning, Simpson, Cape York, Kimberly, West Coast Tassie etc.

FollowupID: 340369

Follow Up By: Member - Chris M (QLD) - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:22

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:22

Agree Utemad, if it's just beach work, Navara will well and truly get you there...

Admitedly, you'd probably have the best lookin' and performing Navara out there...

If wanting to do some bush work, Navara will cut it, but those lockers will get you to places you don't want to be in a Navara...bash crash..oh crap.

If you are keen on the 3L, and go the GU, you would have around 7k change with the current runout (if you went DX). 7k would get you suspension, tyres, rims (if need be), front locker, compressor, winch, and rear _Affordable_Storage_Drawers.aspx. You would get Nissan to put the free genuine winch bar, towbar, cargo barrier, spotties on it and they would fit the winch as well if you got it in time. Then you would have a super capable truck!

Wish I was buyin' a new car again...love it!

Good luck mate,

Chris.

FollowupID: 340370

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:29

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:29

Chris, isn't that what bash plates are for!? LOL
Seriously though, my surf has got the origioanl 8 year old shocks on it, and heavy duty springs on the back, it's still at stock height and we load her up. Yeah sure we occaisionally hit the front bash plate or crossmember, but 9 times out of 10 it's only because I'm being an indiot and going way to fast for the terrain. I havn't lifted it because it only just fits in the garage the way it is, otherwise two inches might be on the cards, I reckon if the Nav's up 2" he'll find it pretty hard to bottom it out except for seriously rutted out mud bog holes.
Can't weight for my firestone rear air bag's though!! HE HE, then I can stop it sagging when fully loaded, should lift the crossmember up a little from the rear, then I can just let them down to get in the garage!
:-)

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Follow Up By: Member - Chris M (QLD) - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:37

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:37

It's not the body you'd be worried about so much, it's the drive train, at least on the GU, you can fit 33's no hassle and clear under your diffs with little effort. Just seen an acquaintance take a stock navara out and didn't have a straight bash plate left on it. Ouch!

I guess I'm thinking serious offroad, not just trips and beach...Typical me, trying to spend other peoples money.

That's why I got 3m doors on the shed, so no matter how stupid I get, I'll always fit! ;-)

Sounds good though, the work you are going to do on yours, nothing better than having your steering normal as opposed to driving uphill the whole way, with your steering feeling light as a feather!

FollowupID: 340375

Follow Up By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:38

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:38

Hey Chris,

Do you reckon you can get that much off the superceded patrol. ie $7000? I negotiated a couple of thousand off the X-trail not long after they'd been released, but $7000 - that'd be nice.

FollowupID: 340376

Follow Up By: Member - Chris M (QLD) - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:49

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:49

Did on mine before the runout...that was on the 4.2.

The 3L DX on paper is 46k. Knock 4k off, get your free gear, and take it from there...

Good luck mate.

Chris.

FollowupID: 340381

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:50

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:50

ha ha, yeah everytime I take my bash plate off to do some work under there I quietly walk it over to the old spare tyre, carefully place it over the top and then jump up and down like a mad bastard! :-)
The I look at it, and JUMP UP AND DOWN SOME MORE!
Then I carefully pick it up and re-attach it to my vehicle...
But I guess that's one of the advatages of the IFS, you don't have to worry about raising your diff so much for protection as it sit's up above all the other crap, quite well protected.
However I did have it surrounded in black swap mud a month or so ago as the clearence was not quiet enough and it just plowed itself to a halt. But hey, that's why they invented snatch straps!! And pants you can zip the bottoms off, and why you roll your jumper up to your ellbows, and why I put a pressure water pump in the back of the vehicles and.... Yeah I'm straying! But it was good fun! EVeryone else had a good laugh anyway! ;-) Almost filled the smurf up with black swampy water, the water was up to the door sills! FEW!

FollowupID: 340382

Reply By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:23

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:23

I would safley say a Navara with a lift and front and rear lockers would be pretty kick arse, having the winch a good backup andbleepwhere is mine!!! I'm jeolous!

Ok I reckon the new navaras look awseom (and lets face it, that's pretty important LOL).

Ok so the only thing the patrol is giving you is a harsher ride a little more cab room (possibly), intercooler (which won't give you much of an advatage because of the extra weight of the patrol) and a live axel.

Now before everyone enters an IFS vs Rigid debate, I reckon it's going to take a lot of anything to stop a powerful relativly light vehicle with front and rear lockers weather it's rigid or IFS.

Go the Nav!

AnswerID: 81093

Follow Up By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:14

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:14

Hi Jeff,

You make a good point about weight. I've read a number of times about fully loaded 4wd's being well over their legal weight when heading bush. In an article about Be ***ma Diesel Ron Moon did, I read they weighed his Patrol empty, and it was over 3 tonne. They said his eyes bulged when they read off the weight. (or something like that)

The Navara is only 1900kg empty. Probably 2400kg fully worked, which still leaves 600kg's available for gear. Important issue for 2 or more months of travel in the bush.

FollowupID: 340386

Reply By: Member -Dodger - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:28

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:28

Gday Fusion,
If you have a family then the Navara is the go as the ute rear with a canopy allows more extra gear to be carried.
My previous 4wd was a Ford Courier with a Detroit in the front & heavy lsd in the rear and it went all the places that most would want to go.
My vehicle at the moment as you can see by the pic is a 4.2 td Patrol which does not have anywhere near the storage of the Courier. The Patrol has towed a 2t van round & through the block with ease however,
My choice now would be the Navara 3.0td Dual cab as its frugal and very roomy plus the rattly gear stays in the back.

I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.

Cheers Dodg.

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AnswerID: 81094

Follow Up By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:34

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:34

No family yet (apart from my wife, I guess she's family ;) but we have a little one on the way. I do business while on the road so I need to carry a reasonable amount of photo/video/computer gear with me always, so cargo capacity is important, as is day to day fuel economy. With fuel prices still going up, who knows where it's going to stop?

FollowupID: 340374

Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:48

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:48

All depends on long term plans for the car.

Ute's suck. You instantly have 1203948203894203948 mates that want to move chit. I had one for 10yrs I know. It bites..

Since you mention rockhopping (LMAO@visions of xtrail on gravel driveway!!) theres no way you would want a navara.. No clearance and no cheap option to lift it either - compared to coils.

My choice would be a second hand GU 4.2 ST for around $38k, bulletproof TD42 then with the other $12,000 fit it out with lockers, tires, suspension turbo etc..
You get bullet proof diffs, lots of room etc etc etc. Same money as a new ute, 10 times the car...

No way I would buy new, you lose thousands as soon as its registered, let alone after you drive it out the door.

YWMBTTM..

AnswerID: 81098

Follow Up By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:02

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:02

Hey Truckster,

Yeah, with a full 150mm of clearance I wasn't wanting to go rock hopping 200m around a headland, but it was that, or go back up a 3km sandy track that had just scratched the buggery out of the 3mth old car.
Thanks to a mate in his 20yr old troopy, who didn't realise how tight the track was, and didn't think the rock hopping bit at the end would be a problem ;) The clutch didn't die right away, but I virtually had an automatic on the way back to camp. The clutch was a sponge. It took another year for it to give out, but that was the only time I flogged it. (apart from Fraser, but it didn't work too hard there.)

A ute with an canopy shouldn't bee too big a problem? The Navara's Dual Cab only got 1400mm length in the back.

I hear what you're saying about 2nd hand, but I'm no mechanic, I know nothing about fixing cars, so buying 2nd had gear like this concerns me.

My business will be buying the vehicle, so costs are significantly reduced. ie GST comes off, + depreciation of vehicle being tax deductible etc. I wouldn't buy a new vehicle personally either.

FollowupID: 340385

Reply By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:49

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 14:49

If I go the Navara I've also considered the D-tronic or Tunit power upgrade as well. $1500 15 - 20% more power and Polyair bellows $800, to control ride height with varying loads. ie day to day, vs fully loaded with trailer etc. And assist with suspension travel on corrugations etc.

Note: I know little about all this stuff from practical experience. All I know about it is from research I've been doing. A lot of it right here reading about the experiences you guys have had with item A and product B.

Thanks for your input. I'm leaning towards the Navara, although I'd love a fully worked Patrol, but who can afford one. I did see an ex TJM display GUIII for sale a couple of weeks ago, fully worked with almost every item TJM make, 33,000kms, only $44,000. I rang up, but it was gone already. I'd prefer not to go 2nd hand though, as I am no mechanic, so fixing other peoples problems could cost me a mint.

AnswerID: 81099

Follow Up By: Member - Chris M (QLD) - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:01

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:01

Debt is good and can be your friend ;-)...and if your running a business, so are tax deductions!

FollowupID: 340384

Follow Up By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 16:16

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 16:16

Hey Chris,

Fantastic Rig. Any idea what it has cost all up to date?

Are you planning to lock the rear diff or does the LSD do a sufficient job?

FollowupID: 340400

Follow Up By: Member - Chris M (QLD) - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 16:31

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 16:31

Um, under 50 for rig, but remember, it's the 4.2. Shan't be talking too much of accessories, but because I wanted it setup for any trip I do, probably owes me another 11k.

Leaving rear lsd as is. Don't do hardcore too much, but like to have backup plan if I do.

Had inspected at AAMI the other day for insurance. Agreed value of $66,000. Not bad for DX GU.

FollowupID: 340402

Follow Up By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 16:36

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 16:36

Cool.

Does the insurance company need to re-inspect whevever you add stuff or at each renewal, or is one inspection enough, then they'll just reduce it over time?

I hadn't considered insurance issues on seriously modified vehicles.

Did you have any problems? Are the premiums much higher than a similarly priced vehicle?

Thanks Chris.

FollowupID: 340403

Follow Up By: Member - Chris M (QLD) - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 07:58

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 07:58

Gday mate,

You really need to consider the insurance issue. Alot of insurers are happy to take your money now as they say when quoting "as long as it's legal".

So they will quite happily take your money, insure you for that 4 inch lift, and 33's, but if you are at fault and are breached by the police, I'm pretty sure there is a good reason not to pay out!

Make sure you do your homework and contact your relative transport authority on what you can and can't do.

My premiums aren't higher, in fact they are very low. I am yet to make a claim, no stacks as yet (touch wood) but do insurance recovery work for my insurer so you can work it out from there as to the lower premiums and excess.

On a TD Bundera many years ago, I did have trouble as I was just under 25, and they considered the Bundera to be a 2 door turbo sportscar. $2,400.00 later I had insurance with Elders, the only company to look at me. Imagine if I had told them I intercooled it as well! ;-)

Good luck with the purchase mate, keep us posted!

Cheers

Chris.

FollowupID: 340457

Reply By: Leroy - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:15

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:15

I think you have to decide what you want to do with the vehicle. A Navara isn't going to make much of a rock hopper either. They are long and dont have the same ground clearance as a Patrol. A Patrol in std trim will out perform the Navara off road because of its better articulation. The stock coils on the Patrol will allow for greater flex. The Navara is a tradesman ute and the rear leaves wont flex as much as the Patrols coils unless it has a load. If you spend $2k on a lift for the Navara it wont perform better than the Patrol either. Usually the leaves are stiffer entailing an even bigger load to get those springs working. I found this out with my Rodeo. I had more clearance but poorer articulation hence wheels coming off the ground. Lockers would help but hey a stock Patrol would probaly walk up.
I paid an extra $980 and got a 2" OME lift through the dealer. Lot better than $2k for the Navara lift that wont perform as well. Also heaps cheaper than dealing with ARB yourself as they get the dealer price.

Leroy

AnswerID: 81101

Follow Up By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:44

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:44

Hi Leroy,

Did you buy the Rodeo through a specialty dealer (ie into 4wd stuff) I didn't imagine your average car yard would have deals in place with ARB installers etc. Thanks for the tip though, could save me thousands.

I hear what you're saying about the coils vs leafs. A locked Patrol would do the trick. Then I'd have the best of all worlds. Problem is I can't afford it. I imagine there are times a standard Patrol will best a lifted and locked Navara, and times the reverse will be the case?

But what does everyone think the ratio will be. ie in what terrains will a LL (locked and lifted) Navara best a standard Patrol and visa versa?

FollowupID: 340395

Follow Up By: Leroy - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 16:15

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 16:15

It was the Nissan dealer. I got the OME lift for the patrol. Was trying to hilight that it's cheaper to lift the patol but I wasn't very clear with the explanation!!

I still think a stock patrol will do most if not all the LL Nav will. Mates GQ used to crawl up things so easily and not hit a thing and it was a stocker and I had over 50mm on my ol Rodeo and hit everything and bounced all over the place (unless I had a load).
I miss the ute and carried a boat on top etc and now are faced with how to do it with the patrol. DC utes are great with space in the back seat to store stuff securely and the tub for things that are really muddy etc, boat fuel what ever. It went everywhere in it, the snow, vic high country, sand driving at Robe, up the cape but I just had to work harder sometimes when driving it.

Leroy

FollowupID: 340399

Follow Up By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 16:21

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 16:21

Thanks Leroy,

Very interesting Patrol vs your Rodeo. I wonder if one was to get softer leaf springs (ie more complient, better travel) and shore them up with Polyair, then I maybe you can have the best of both worlds at a bargain price?

Anyone used Polyair or equivalent for this sort of thing?

FollowupID: 340401

Follow Up By: Leroy - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 19:26

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 19:26

I actually have seen a late model hilux with std rear leaves and airbags that could be pumped up or let down depending on load like the polyaires. I think they were from air bag man. This is probably the way I would go if I was to do it again.

Leroy

FollowupID: 340417

Reply By: Davoe - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:19

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:19

Sounds like your a progressive sort of guy - bought the x trail coz you thought it would do you but then there was always one track more and further. I reckon Navaras are alright but if you get the patrol then there will be no further upgrading. You say a locked navara will beat a standard patrol but you sound like the kinda guy that will end up wanting the locked patrol and go all the way

AnswerID: 81102

Follow Up By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:35

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 15:35

You're right. I would ultimately want a locked Patrol. But I just can't justify the $$$. If I start with a standard Patrol and work on it over time, I've still spent mega $$ at the end of the day. I know I would over time spend the $$$ on the upgrades to a standard Patrol. If I start with a worked Navara, I've got nowhere else to go. Except to sell it I guess, for a huge loss and buy a Patrol ;)

I don't necessarily want to do hard core 4wd for the sake of it. (Although that's fun) I just want to be able to get to anywhere we want to go, no matter where it is. Preferably the places that are hard to get to, with few people. Of couse often the fun is in the 'getting to' but anyway.

FollowupID: 340391

Reply By: navaraman - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 18:48

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 18:48

Fusion, Ive got the old 3.2 diesel navara DC, not the new trick 3.0TD. It' used as a work vehicle mainly which is why I went for a ute. Got the Old Man Emu suspension which improved it. I'm seriously considering a patrol and a trailer for work next time. The Patrol is a far better vehicle off road, has far more acccessory options, is more comfortable and looks better IMO. The rear seats are OK for small kids (so OK for you and the upcoming bub if you can fit capsules in the back ???) but my kids are starting to complain about space naw at 10 and 7. Dragging a trailer around for work would be a realPITA but having a Patrol over a Navara would make it worthwhile i reckon.

AnswerID: 81121

Follow Up By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 20:03

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 20:03

Hey Navaraman, thanks for the info.

Did you get any lift from the OME or just a better ride?

How did it change the performance?

Can you remember what you had done and how much it cost?

FollowupID: 340418

Follow Up By: navaraman - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 20:50

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 20:50

Fusion,

I did torsion bars, medium duty springs, 4 x Nitrochargers plus all the usual hardware. Gained about 40mm at the rear (the old springs were knackered), a bit less at the front. Now that they have settled in I will probably raise the front a bit more on the torsion bars. Ride has improved noticeably, cost fited was about $1800.

FollowupID: 340422

Reply By: mik*2 - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 22:12

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 22:12

I'm biased so i recommend the Navara, but i think you've got the price wrong. Series 2 TD costs around $42500 + onroads...unless you have an ABN of course.

cheers
mike

AnswerID: 81161

Follow Up By: Fusion - Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 22:35

Thursday, Oct 21, 2004 at 22:35

Yep, I'm ABN'd up. So the 'fleet' price is what I listed above.

I guess it's not a totally fair comparison, as the Navara is $6,000 less than standard price to begin with. But those are the RRP's I'm working with. I hope to get a lot more than that off the price before I'm done. I'll let everyone know if I succeed.

Thanks,

Aaron.

FollowupID: 340442

Reply By: Disco200Tdi - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 12:04

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 12:04

Just a couple of other things that in my mind sway it towards the patrol.

Fuel tank capacity : Navara - 75 L , Patrol - 125 L
Low Low crawl ratio : Navara - 32:1 , Patrol 38:1

John D

AnswerID: 81220

Follow Up By: Fusion - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 23:16

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 23:16

I had considered getting a long ranger fuel tank for the Navara if I go that way, gives it 125 L . (I haven't factored it into the costs above though, about $1000)

Good point also on the Gear ratios though. I'd been looking at the low range transfer ratio of 2.02:1 which both vehicles have and considered their gearing fairly equal, but I hadn't been looking at the actual drive ratios. Duhh.

Thanks John.

FollowupID: 340542

Reply By: NissanNut - Friday, Nov 12, 2004 at 00:02

Friday, Nov 12, 2004 at 00:02

I cant count the number of times ive pulled mates Patrols (GU and GQ) and a couple of cruisers out of the mud, even up hill... I think everyone has been missing the tyre thing here.... I have IFS and have never had a problem with it.
The problem I would have with the Navara is that it doesnt look like you can fit very big tyres to them, even with as much lift as you can (which wouldnt be much on the front of any IFS 4x). But i do love the amound of room my dual cab has in the back!

AnswerID: 84065

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