old diesel in fuel tank

Submitted: Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 09:50
ThreadID: 17224 Views:5364 Replies:8 FollowUps:12
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I only use the car on weekends, as we both cycle to work during the week. Over the last few weekends we've been doing things around the house and hadn't had a chance to drive any large distances. Therefore a full tank of diesel can last us up to six to eight weeks, (or basically from one camping trip to the next).

I know when buying diesel, people suggest buying from places with a large turnover, so as not buy old diesel that's been sitting there for ages.

So how old is too OLD.

I thought of buying just half a tank but it's a bit of a PITA.

R.
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Reply By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 10:17

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 10:17
Don't think 6 to 8 weeks is excessive but you might want to use a biocide in your tank to stop bacteria/algae etc. [Yes, some bugs can live/grow in diesel - must be tough little b*gg*ers, eh? I believe they live at the water/diesel boundary.]

I've been using Fuel Doctor for a while now (but no commercial relationship). It's an Aust. product and their claims seem reasonable/believable.

I've not done any serious treated Vs untreated tests for smoke, economy, etc. but my sedimenter seems to have a lot less grey sludge in it when I drain it (every 5000 km, at oil change time), since I've been using this stuff.
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Follow Up By: squizzy - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 12:32

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 12:32
Ian,

Do you know whether these additives will affect the 3.0L Nissan engine?

I do know that some additives can cause problems with that motor.

Geoff.
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Follow Up By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 14:19

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 14:19
I'd seriously doubt it would cause any engine damage. It's a fuel additive, not an oil additive (which I steer clear of). From their website Fuel Doctor seem like a reputable mob [but then again maybe I do to, so that probably doesn't prove much!!] and if there were any problems with the product, I'm sure their industrial customers would have kicked-up a stink by now. Why not ask them?
Bob BTW's comments a bit further down would seem to carry a bit of weight, given his situation and experience.
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Follow Up By: GeoffSA - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 18:56

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 18:56
Thanks for the reply Ian.

And BLW certainly has done his homework and supplied some very good info.

Geoff.
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Reply By: fisho64 - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 12:00

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 12:00
you're rite that the bug lives at the fuel water interface, best treatment for it is CLADOCIDE or similar. Sorry best treatment is dont get it!! As once it is in there it is hard to get rid of and will cost you lots of filters if you dont strip the fuel system. Keep your tank fuel during the humid time of the year as the more humid air inside the more condensation. Regarding the age of fuel, dont worry about it, diesel doesnt really deteriorate in the short term. Our boats are laid up for 5 months of the year with no probs. More important if you live in a cold climate to be careful carrying over a tankful of summer diesel thru winter.
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Reply By: Bob BLW - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 12:47

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 12:47
Don’t be concerned about the age of the Diesel it will last for years, there are emergency generators in city buildings and hospitals that have had the same diesel in them since they were installed ie 10-20 years, the concern is the growth of the "Diesel Fuel Bug", the bug is present in all diesel and will thrive is some places more than others.
The Bug lives on the interface between the water in the bottom of your fuel tank and the Diesel above ie feeding on the diesel and living in the water, so it craps and dies at the bottom of your tank and is then sucked into fuel filters and blocks them, to minimise the growth of the Bug you have to minimise the quantity of water/sediment in the tank. This can be done by draining the sediment from your fuel tank/tanks, not all Diesel tanks have sediment drains on them good 4X4 diesels do ie Toyota’s.
The other thing to do is to keep the tank full, ie up in the neck of the filler when you know you will not be driving the vehicle for weeks, this gives the moisture in the air less contact area with the inside of the tank, the air condenses on the tank inside wall and will eventually make its way to the bottom of the tank and give the bug more room to grow.
I would also suggest that you get the car serviced every 6 months instead of by KM if you are doing less that 10000 a year and if you don’t feel up to draining the sediment have your dealer drain the sediment at the time of service (every six months should be often enough to drain the sediment). And make sure you change the fuel filter at least every year. Filter manufacturers recommend every 6 months for all types of filters but you can get away with 12 months.
I look after a fleet of 60, 4x4 and 70 cranes and small trucks and 60 mining pieces of equipment we burn 100,000 litres a day of diesel and used to have a lot of trouble with the fuel bug so I did some investigation (US army web site) and found out the simplest fix was to minimise the bugs habitat, which is basically draining sediment and condensation out of tanks, up until then we had been buying fuel doctor by the 20ltr container and Wynn’s etc with minimal effect as well as changing fuel filters on a daily basis. Now we don’t change filters outside of service intervals and we don’t use any fuel doctor etc.
Every service sheet instructs to drain sediment from fuel tanks, including storage tanks, problem solved.
Sorry about being bit long winded
Bob
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Follow Up By: Skinny- Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 13:52

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 13:52
Knowledge is power thanks for the tips
skinny
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Follow Up By: Flash - Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 at 08:37

Sunday, Oct 24, 2004 at 08:37
Gotta agree with that Bob.
I've often used diesel which is many years old with no ill-effects.
Keep the tank clean, keep the bugs at bay, and you can use very old diesel fuel without drama- quite the opposite of petrol.
(Petrol has high vapour pressure, and goes "off" ie:lowered octane etc. very quickly indeed.)
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Reply By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 13:13

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 13:13
I agree with what the others have said, but will add my 2 bob's worth as well.

As far as I know, it's best to keep your fuel tank as full as practical to assist minimise the chances of bugs forming/taking hold. So I wouldn't be leaving the tank half full/empty for weeks at a time.

I use a Morrisons De-Bug unit to prevent algae etc getting into my filter and beyond. This product was reviewed by Ron Moon in 4X4 Australia Magazine a few years ago. Several months ago Mr Morrison, from Melbourne, was on this forum following my having mentioned his product in another post.

In my particular case, there was insufficient space under the bonnet for me to install the De-Bug unit (it's about the size of a fuel filter and contains powerful magnets). So I mounted mine on the chassis rail of the GU, directly below the driver's footwell. I didn't want to cut into the fuel line to install it, so I simply took the rubber fuel hose off in the engine bay, added a longer replacement piece which goes to the De-Bug unit and then put another hose from the De-Bug unit to the fuel filter. I am satisfied that this unit serves to kill off any algae and other matter that may be in the tank, before it reaches my filter.
On a recent trip to Cape York, my mate in the 3.0L Patrol got fuel at Innaminka at the same time as I did, from the same bowser. Some time later up past Arrabury, his Patrol coughed to a halt......he drained some water from the (genuine Nissan) filter and was able to get the vehicle re-started. My truck has a CAV filter with glass bowl; no sign of any water in my bowl and no problem with engine stopping etc. I know this may have been a complete coincidence.......he may have had water in his tank before this etc.....but to me it's another example that I have spent my money wisely when I bought the De-Bug unit.
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Follow Up By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 19:50

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 19:50
Sorry Roachie,
Don't mean to be a complete sceptic (which I usually am) but any mentions of 'magnets' and fuel systems gives me a shiver up the spine.

Now, I don't wish to question whether or not your device kills the 'bugs' that are able to live is diesel tanks (that they do live in tanks is beyond dispute, IMHO) but I must ask:

a) You said your mate's vehicle had water in the filter drain but your's didn't. Does your device claim to remove water?

b) It seems to me that even if your device does 100% kill diesel bugs on their way from the tank to the engine, it's a bit too late by then anyway. From my (albeit very limited) reading on the subject, the problem is with them living in the tank and their 'by products' (acids, etc.) contaminating the fuel before it leaves the tank.

PS: Having just 'questioned' your fuel device, I guess this is not the best time to ask if your still thinking about a Thermoguard EGT gauge???
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 21:33

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 21:33
G'day Ian,

I don't mind you being a sceptic...I usually am too. Before I shelled out several hundred clams for this De-Bug unit, I read as much as possible. They have a web site which explained a fair bit. They make different sizes and have huge ones for ships etc. If you can believe what is printed, there are instances where thousands of dollars have been saved by operators who had been having severe and expensive problems previously. I cannot recall whether they claim it stops water from getting to the filter. The Innaminka incident could have just resulted from the 3.0L being more finiky than the old 4.2L as far as handling water in the fuel is concerned.

I am still keen on the idea of a EGT system, but am reluctant to drill and tap a hole in my exhaust manifold. You said you were off to a wreckers to see what was available in the way of ready made "plugs" in the Nissan manifold......any joy on that front?

Regards...

Roachie
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 at 16:05

Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 at 16:05
Ian,
I know you can't believe everything you read on the net.....but if you've got time, have a look at :

http://www.morison.com.au/de-bug.htm

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Reply By: Member -Dodger - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 15:27

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 15:27
I agree totally with the others re time period and the BUG. I also have a CAV filter sustem in my Patrol allowing for any unwanted yuck to be seen in the glass bowl before it blocks up. I also use Proma products which I think are very good. However this does not stop you from getting a bad lot of fuel now & then.
Yeah Nissan does need to put a bung in their tanks.(lowsy Aussie Fuel)
I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.

Cheers Dodg.

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Reply By: Bonz (Vic) - Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 17:36

Friday, Oct 22, 2004 at 17:36
I think you can get something to fix this problem at the chemist. Ask for "geddimeforbyandoffdabike". They may have to make it up specially for you but its worth it.

It works on your central nervous system and reacts with the cheek spreading attributes of a bike seat causing a burning sensation that can only be remedied by sitting on a nice wide and comfortabel 4WD seat and driving somewhere beautiful.

Good luck and let us know how you go. If this spreads too far the NH&MRS may need to be advised.
.
Time is an illusion produced by the passage of history
.

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Follow Up By: Rob! - Monday, Oct 25, 2004 at 09:24

Monday, Oct 25, 2004 at 09:24
Nice. :)
Thanks Bonz for the advice I'll look into it.

I like the idea of a nice, wide comfortable seat. Especially that small button in front of it labelled A/C. The problem is that the seat is attached to nearly 2 tonnes of steel which I must pay somebody $5 a day to store during the hours that I am at work. It also takes longer to get there.

R.
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Reply By: fisho64 - Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 at 04:49

Saturday, Oct 23, 2004 at 04:49
I hate to say it but the magnetic devices were trialed on fishing boats here in WA and found to be ineffective. As someone previously said, whether it works or not, if it does its job in the fuel lines it is too late. Does it make the dead algae vanish by magic? Where does the sludge go if not into the filter?? Sorry but I am a sceptic too!!
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Follow Up By: Garth- Friday, Oct 29, 2004 at 17:33

Friday, Oct 29, 2004 at 17:33
Hi fisho64 there a number of magnetic devices on the market, as with all products some work better than others, do you know which devices were trialed?
As all diesels these days have recirculing fuel systems, where excess fuel is drawn to the fuel pump for engine acceleration demands, fuel system cooling and lubrication, and what is not used is pumped back to the tank. Depending what is on the fuel line the fuel returns to the tank clean of inorganic, water and biological contaminates after being through the filter, water separator and De-Bug.
The bugs explode and the left over parts pass through the filters and are burnt with the fuel; the proof is no slime on filters.
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Saturday, Oct 30, 2004 at 01:05

Saturday, Oct 30, 2004 at 01:05
Garth, I have plumbed up many new marine diesels, including Volvo, Scania, Detroit, Cat, Fiat, MTU, MAN and Yanmar. These are the latest engines built to conform to european emission standards, and I can say that I have NEVER plumbed more than 2 fuels lines between the tanks and lift pump. They are Fuel Feed, and Fuel Return. Fuel return is fuel that spills past the injectors or sometimes also from the pump plungers for mainly the purposes you have listed. All of this fuel passes thru the entire system before being either A burnt in the cylinder B flowing back to the tank. If the Debug works, where do the "dead bugs" (sporideum) end up? Unless they vanish into thin air they must be either in the filter or in the fuel system somewhere? Even if the Debug did work, anyone who has tryed to rid a fuel system will be able to tell you that unless the bug is either killed in the tank with a cladocide or similar, then filtered out thru many filter changes, or else the tank is completely emptied and physically cleaned. The bug will continue multiplying. You can empty a 5000 litre tank til there is 10 litres left and refill with fresh fuel and you have gained zero. All moisture must be removed.
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Follow Up By: Garth- Saturday, Oct 30, 2004 at 09:10

Saturday, Oct 30, 2004 at 09:10
Thanks for the reply fisho64, yes the recirculation system I referred to is the Fuel Return, it has a fairly good flow. To check this feel the tank of interstate truck that has been running all day, it will be about 40+c. Return fuel is as clean as the filters and other Units can get it.
The dead bugs are exploded, see if you use a biocide, cladocide to kill the bugs they end up in the bottom of the tank as bug sludge as you have stated which is costly and time consuming to remove, however if you use a De-Bug there is no slime on the filters nor is there bug sludge build up in the tanks. However if De-Bug is being used then biocide/ cladocide can not because the cells have to be alive to be treated by De-Bug.
When you've got a moment visit http://www.morison.com.au/reports.htm and read the Condor, Union Rotorua and Shell reports. Like yourself, these are professional engineers that have had a problem they can't get rid of, in desperation they fit a De-Bug and the problem is permanently eliminated.
A good water separator is also essential for removing suspended water and that water that sloshes over the fuel pickup and drawn up to the filters in rolling to high seas.
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Reply By: Rob! - Monday, Oct 25, 2004 at 09:26

Monday, Oct 25, 2004 at 09:26
Thanks everyone for your advice.

I'll look into some de-bugging stuff and keep the tank filled up.

R.
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