HF Radios

See post 18373
Plus many previous posts on this subject
i just thought I would put my 2 cents worth of comments in
common sense needs to win

Are you for real?

I know I shouldnt bite coz this is obviosly on of those naughty williem (renmember him) postersbut here goes,
Hf is used extensively in the mineral exploration industry (not just casual part time users) these people find the deposits that make it possible for suburbia to survive. The Kalgoorlie electorate alone which is driven primarily by the exploration industry (which find the mines pay the workers who pay their taxes yada yada yada) creates more wealth for the country than all other electorates which use the money to build city roads transport and fund the infrastructure for this new technology. This is just one example of how selfish part time users use hf

Davoe, who's paying you?

yep I am part of Australias biggest export industry

I agree saving your families life is very selfish.. I think everyone else should have broadband because life would end without it, I must admit..... while 20 families perish in the desert..
I apologise.

What about those families and hard working average joes that saved up for years to buy their HF and then 1 year after they finally managed to scratch up the funds some government and big bussiness guys say, sorry mate you might as well chuck it in the bin cos we want to make some more money now and radiate our RF pollution on an even larger scale than we ever managed before.

Hell imagine living near one of those large power lines, it's bad enough with the current interence from just 50hz of power, imagaine Megabits of data streaming down all those un sheilded cables in the air!! Geeez, I'm not going near them, I might want more kids someday you know....

Jeff M,

I agree with your comments.

But I'm past having more kids, but I sure would like to see my grandkids make it through life, with a HF.

Hey Truckster, while those 20 families are perishing, you and I will be able to watch them trying desperately to get a doctor with their redundant HF radio via a live feed because you now have broadband... You should be able to listen to their agony with digital stereo quality also...

I don't want to deny anyone the technology I enjoy, I do think some common sense is needed when making these decisions though.

Jeff M I did not see you complaining when they turned of the analogue mobile phone system and we had to buy GSM phones.
Leading to a lot of very expensive phones being chucked in the bin.
So whats the difference ?

Your point about the amount of potential EMR coming of these power lines is a valid one. I hope someone points this out in all the decision making process.

John, you must have been looking the wrong way! I bitched and whined about the analouge system being switch off! :-)

But there was at least a low cost alernative and some potential gain in user features for going digital, however again the radtiation the GSM towers are putting out is also another whole scarey kettle of fish. I also whinged about the deregulation of telecomunications because instead of only having the "necessary" amount of microwave ovens with antennas to supply the GSM mobile coverage to australians, we now have three or 4 times as many towers because each telco wants/has to have their own setup.

Answer... Go bush and get away from it all as much as you can. Oh hang on, going bush is not going to help anymore, not if your near any power lines that is! :-P

I would like to know who is paying David Au.
declare your interest David Au!
Sat phone dealer?
power industry?
govt?

Tut tut David Au, normally this sort of wind up woul dget me going to, but this is one of the most exquisitely worded tongue in cheek comments I have seen, I congratulate you for getting a troll past the might of Truckster, although I think he is still skeptical of your (dis?) honourable intentions.

Hey Davoe...leave me out of it lol

David Au sounds very much like Ozi( a trouble maker from way back) .

While the debate goes on I still listen in to VKS from time to time and ring home on my Satphone.

Technology will forge ahead.

Adapt or die.....as the saying goes

Yea but farmland is hardly remote country with a lot of it covered by mobile reception now, There is mobile reception all the way out to where fsrmland meets cape arid nat park. Mine vehicles all run uhf for ease of communication. I have seen exploration vehicles with either hf, hf and satphone but never just satphone. My last job involved me going into areas where there was no chance of being stumbled on in the next 10years and the only hope of any type of timely rescue would have been by helicopter. We relied soley on hf for comunication and safety scheds back to base and to other vehicles in the Musgraves during weekends and also evening scheds with the other vehicle on adjoining mapsheets for safety. HF is certainly not just the domain of the townie in remote areas

No, farmland in Western QLD is very remote. There is not mobile reception. Some of the larger towns, like the curry have CDMA coverage, but it does not extend far out of town, where the farms are.

I agree with your comments, but the change to sat over HF has been over the last year. It's something that is just starting to gain momentum.

Also, most of the government vehicles (QRail, energex etc) have both mediums. Of course they have bigger budgets, but they do tend to differ from farmers, in that farmers are ussually on their block, and know where damms and spikes are, whereas rail and power people are in unknown territory (like oursleves)

I like HF for the social factor, but if out alone, and you roll your car thru a washout, the antena is always the second thing to be damaged (the beer being the first), so the radio is not as usable then. A sat phone under the seat is still OK (as is the bottle of port)

With our cars being worth 10s of thousands, and gear being worth thousands, then having a HF and a sat phone is not really that big an expense.....

Probably our definitions of remote are different for my line of work at my previos job any track that had been used in the last 10 years was considered good access, not so good access was no tracks just straigth through the saplings (between 3 and 5 meteres tall as well as over all the burnt out logs from the last fire Bad access was through thick freshly burnt out bush. It was not uncommen to travel an entire week without following a single track of any kind. It would be highly unlikely for you to damage your ariel in this kind of driving coz it is in the back packed up in pvc pipe and you put it up when needed. If you were to break it you get your emergency arial out of the glovebox (you do carry one dont you) and use that

Yes, our definitions do differ there. Even Energex send a dozer in first (which make for great tracks to play on with a dirt bike), so I don't really think of virgin scrub. Must be hard on the cars!

yes very it was a government job. At one stage we had a guy come in and comented on our old stuffed vehicles - he was talking about a ute with 8000k. Another time I fuelled up and was asked for the odo, 3500 and he stood there so I said it again he just said damn I was waiting for the rest. Some of the tracks we followed were made by a dozer and the thing you notice most is that the growth is more vigourus on the track due to the water being trapped by the swales so you end up driving alongside the track. Really makes a mockery of the tree huggers ideas idea od what an envoronmentally sensative track is. From experience a track will last about 30years max and can be lost in a matter of years by regrowth after a fire

I was under the impression that although Bush Telegraph and VKS use the same frequencies that they were totally different operations with different members.
So wer are talking about 3500 amature operaters.
approx 2000 VKS-737 members.
Let just guess and say 1000 bush telehraph members
plus a few thousand (as you suggested) commercials,

that's what, 9500 HF operaters currently.
Let's say that 500 of the 10,000 sat phones to date were replacments for lost, damaged or out of date units I'd say we are still looking at a 50% Sat phone vs 50% HF of users.

So 50% of the people using remote communications are just going to get cut off?

Look I agree it will probally end up happening, I just think it's more about bucks than brains personally.

Jeff of course it's about the bucks.
In the end thats all that will drive most things.

Look I believe it is just a matter of wait and see, maybe HF will get lucky maybe the BPL technology can't be made to work as competitively as other forms of data transmission Who knows ? certainly not me.

I just listed the details of available web sites etc with enough info for people to gain a reasonable understanding of where we are today with this stuff.

I own a sat phone and it works great, but I was also going to buy a HF for the community aspect, just my personal want.

Since becoming informed about this BPL technology I placed the HF on the wait and see list, I guess if you wanted a HF and spent the dollars knowing that it's long term reliability may be compromised then thats your choice and dollars.
I personally would think it a bit silly to purchase a HF knowing whats now going on in the market place.

If you own one now then keep using it and enjoy it and wait and see how much impact BPL may have on the service, maybe it will not be anywhere near as bad as being speculated, maybe it will be worse ?

Yeah fair enough John, I'm in the situation where I was starting to get an old HF up and running and have only spent a couple of hundred dollars so far, but still it's money down the drain if I do nothing else to it, but if I spend more money on it to find out in 12 months time it's usless that's even worse again!

But what really concerns me is a hell of a lot of people have no idea that this issue even exists, and yet their friendly radio salesman will probally have no issue taking $3000 off some poor bastard as he's got stock he needs to get rid of and this person is none the wiser.
As you say, if you ARE aware of the issues and spend the money than that's your own risk.

John does that 3500 Registered Amateur operaters includes the users of VKS737 and Bush Telegraph? I would be interested to find that out, because as far as I'm aware you don't have to apply for an amateure license and set a test in order to become a member of 737, they have an excemption setup with the ABA/ACA for their members on their frequencies.

Jeff the figures of 3500 came from Peter Dwyer the owner of Telstat Communications here in Melbourne.
I was surprised to say the least as I thought that there would have been considerably more than this and in terms of unlicensed users I am sure there are.
I guess on a commercial aspect there are a few thousand more but in the end not that many overall.
Considering Telstra have sold about 10,000 Sat phone in Australia to date.

I not positive of where I saw this and I do stand to be corrected but I recall that VKS have just reached 2000 licenses ???
I will have a look now for reconfirmation of this number.
I also would guess that most VKS members would be Bush telegraph members also.

But taking this at face value I guess Peter's 3500 is not very far from the mark.

>Jeff the figures of 3500 [people who hold Amateur Radio
>Licences] came from Peter Dwyer the owner of Telstat
>Communications here in Melbourne.

In that case Mr Dwyer needs to review his accuracy - there are approximately 14,500 Amateur Radio Operators in Australia. And that figure comes from the ACA - and they issue the licences.

Mike Harding

Correct Mike but when you extract the Marine, Aviation, School of the Air, RFDS, base station ham operators etc then lets split the restricted from the unrestricted license conditions etc who don't use frequencies common to the range applied to the 4wd communities you end up with about 3500.

Mr Dwyer would have a better idea of the market forces and conditions including all aspects of HF and other user licensing than you would I'm sure.

Either which way 14,000 is still a drop in the electorate bucket.

>Correct Mike but when you extract the Marine, Aviation,
>School of the Air, RFDS, base station ham operators etc
>then lets split the restricted from the unrestricted license
>conditions etc who don't use frequencies common to the
>range applied to the 4wd communities you end up with
>about 3500.

You know it's really bloody irritating when people who have no idea what they’re talking about pontificate and patronise on the net. Not only that but it wastes so much of my time digging up links to demonstrate to such individuals (who pluck numbers out of the air and make pompous assertions of their validity - without bothering to check them) that their figures are incorrect.

http://www.aca.gov.au/aca_home/media_releases/media_enquiries/2003/03-51.htm

Now John me old mate - if you care to take a look at that link you'll find the ACA (that's the Australian Communication Authority - the people who licence everyone to use spectrum in Oz - including the inestimable Mr Dwyer) say there are "14,000 licensed amateur operators" in Australia - and I reckon they should know, don't you - or is Mr Dwyer also issuing licences now too?

Now John me old mate: an Amateur Radio Operator is not a marine operator or a school of the air operator or even an RFDS base station - that why he or she takes an examination to become a "Licensed Amateur Radio Operator"; it's an independent class of radio operator and there are 14,000 of them in Australia - have I made that clear?

http://www.aca.gov.au/aca_home/legislation/radcomm/determinations/lcd/amateur.pdf

Gordon Bennett!

And we don’t want broadband over power line either.

>Mr Dwyer would have a better idea of the market forces
>and conditions including all aspects of HF and other user
>licensing than you would I'm sure.

Are you and does he? Well it appears neither of you have a clue with regard to how many people are in that market so I must treat your’s and his opinions with extreme scepticism.

Mike Harding

Mr Harding
I'm really sorry that I have irritated you.
I'm really sorry that you feel that I don't know what I am talking about.
I'm really sorry (Not) that you are the self centred, pontificating and patronising ar$ehole that you are.
I loved the description of pompous, I don't think anybody has ever applied that to me. And would suggest that it is in fact a common name to you.

I listed information supplied to me in good faith for no personal gain and indeed no intention of attempting to gain an advantage or to belittle anyone.

You on the other hand believe that you are all so mighty right and you poor thing you had to spend some of your precious time to locate various links to try and substantiate your condescending attitude.

As to your claims about amateur licenses not applying to various other applications, well my smart friend it is plain to see you really are a dumb $hit who gets his rocks off by big noting himself.
When it is a requirement to hold these licenses for various other applications other than what you list.

I hold an unrestricted amateur license for use in conjunction with my Marine Masters qualifications.
This license is not distinguished as a different marine license as you claim, it's one and the same as a minimum operators holding by state requirement.
And there are a bloody lot of operators in the marine industry the same as me who hold the same ticket.

Ham operators working from a base station also require at the minimum an amateur license same as outback station operators communicating with the RFDS and the School of The Air etc.

Mr Dwyer has spent more than 30 years in the Radio Industry, he was a founding member of the VKS and Bush Telegraph networks.
He had no reason whatsoever to lie to me and I took his word in good faith (Something you obviously don't know about) if he was wrong for whatever reason, So what ? no harm done.
The whole point of the thread was to make the point that the HF community is very very small in the scheme of things and will unfortunately probably have little impact in the overall decision regarding BPL.

In the end I really don't give a $hit if you treat his or my opinions with any level of skepticism, as I don't place any credence in your views or opinions.

Oh and by the way, I'm not your mate and I would think with your attitude you don't have many of those.

So the ACA are wrong and you and Mr Dwyer are right then?

I'll mention it to them so they can update their records.

Mike Harding

John, all I can say is... AMEN!

Mr Harding you can tell anybody what you please.

It's obvious that you can't read.

Thats a fantasic line for a bumper sticker. Up there with the "If guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have guns".

there are lots of maybes in that post.

1. why do a way with technology that works to invent technology that isnt needed but that will make big bucks for those behind it?

answer because nobody gives a shyte!!!

2. why grant exemptions to power companies to introduce technology that isnt needed and can be replaced with technology that already exists and is more reliable and doesn't interfere with existing reliable proven technology, so that those behind it can make big bucks

answer because nobody gives a shyte!!

Yes sat phones will replace HF for most users and then HF sets will be more expensive and market forces will dictate the rest. And similarly something else will replace BPL, it already has!!! but while big wigs can make big bucks by screwing over the little guys, they will, especially if the little guys line up to be screwed.

David O

Only two, one being optimistic, the other pessimistic. I am not clear on the actual benefits of BPL nor of the market out there for it. All I know is that if there is a market and theres $$$ in it the power companies will push it. I am not sure its about fornication, but ignoring the rights of a group of people (HF users) and makin gtheir pasttime/livlihood/lifeline inactive and unusable without them having a say or ability to replicate what they had in another system is immoral in my book.

yep re the last para, I cant agree more
Sorry if the fornication reference offended :-)

David O

no offence, no worries, no money hahahhah