Want to play in the mud? Think again.
Submitted: Friday, Dec 24, 2004 at 23:39
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Stuart
Hi all, thought I might share this with you. We have all read numerous posts about the damage playing in the mud can do but here's a problem you could have just playing in muddy
water. A friend of
mine has started competing in competitions like Woodpecker and Nissan trials ect. It's an Aqua blue FJ55. You can't miss it. Anyway after the Nissan trials the engine (a 5ltr Holden V8) starts getting rattly in the bottom end. Next thing it's taken the bottom out of a lifter and a lobe off the cam. Replacment parts are purchased and repairs begin but after removing the sump plug the drain hole is blocked. Hmmm, may be cam and lifter
debris. Anyway cam ect. replaced and new oil poured in but engine still very rattly. Hmmm, not good. Talked to one of the old hands of competion and sure enough the engine is completely stuffed. Why, because when that hot engine hits the cold
water and you have vacum in the sump at high revs the muddy
water gets sucked in past the rear main seal and posibly the timming cover seal as
well. This bloke had ruined a couple of Chev V8's the same way. The mud that gets in is really fine like talcum powder but works like valve grinding paste. It does'nt take long to stuff an engine. These seals are designed to keep oil in, not
water out.
Creek crossings ect are not really a problem because the engine is normally not constantly submurged and at high revs so you don't have the high vacum in the sump. Anyway just another reason to take care when playing in the mud. Cheers.
Reply By: Mike-TS - Friday, Dec 24, 2004 at 23:47
Friday, Dec 24, 2004 at 23:47
It takes even less than you think!
Imagine a 4.2 litre displacement engine with 20:1 ratio with 6 pistons. Although not 100% strictly correct - at the top of the stoke you have 4.2/6/6 volume in each cylinder = 0.1 litres (100cc). Take in
water less than this to any cylinder and boom!
A beer can is 350ml = 350 cc. So about a 1/4 of a beer can of
water and you are gone.
Moral of story:
1. Beer is better than
water.
2. I can drink more beer than my Landcruiser....;)
AnswerID:
90273
Reply By: Member - Brian H (WA) - Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 00:16
Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 00:16
It's not just engines. Think of the poor old diff's, gearbox and transfer case. A timely warning though. Can you fit a breather to the sump like you do on a diff? Hmmm.
AnswerID:
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 00:19
Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 00:19
was going to say the exact same thing on driveline!!
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Follow Up By: Member - Brian H (WA) - Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 00:35
Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 00:35
What are you doing up?? Waiting for the fat bloke in the red suit??
All the best.
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Follow Up By: Member - Brian H (WA) - Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 00:36
Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 00:36
Only 9-35pm here in the west
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Reply By: Member - Dragan T (VIC) - Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 02:16
Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 02:16
Hi everyone. I think Stuart is talking about something else Mike!!! Sump already has a breather, up thorough crank case vapour valve. Maybe in this case vents must be modified to bigger ones so there is minimum vacuum in the sump!!!
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Reply By: locallaw - Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 20:13
Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 20:13
Gidday I thought there was pressure in the sump not a vaccumn.
Just my bit.
Seeya Locallaw MERRY CHRISTMAS
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Reply By: Stuart - Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 20:55
Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 20:55
We believe the sump can develop vacum under the right conditions. At this stage he is going to fit an 1/2 inch breather pipe from the sump, up the fire wall and fit it with a cap. This would be replaced with a filter when competing. Engine breather may not be big enough. This will make sure that the sump vents. Still not convinced that will fix the problem, may be somthing else at fault. An expensive way to find out though. That's life.
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 22:38
Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 22:38
The only reason you should get a pressure lower than atmosphere in your sump is possibly because the breather is hooked to the aircleaner as alot are for emission control and you put your foot down flat? if the breather vents to atmosphere there isnt any way for the crankcase to develop a vacuum as the is blowby from the rings and valve guides going into the crankcase, no matter how good the donk is
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Reply By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Monday, Dec 27, 2004 at 08:44
Monday, Dec 27, 2004 at 08:44
I would be troubled by the premise that the sump is under vacuum. If memory serves me correct, there is a POSITIVE crankcase ventilation valve venting into the manifold to allow blowby gasses that accumulate in the crankcase/sump to be reintroduced into the combustion chambers. I would be checking the correct operation of the PCV valve, as if it was stuck open it would lead to a constantly negative pressure in the crankcase. Remember how the old cars had an oil breather cap on the top of the motor????
The oil system and the amount of air in it would always be under pressure when the engine is running, at the very least the PCV blowoff pressure in the sump. The drop in air volume due to cooling would be reflected as a transient drop in positive pressure, but would never be a "hard" vacuum (this would lead to the oil pickup tube being sucked dry of oil - manometer principle).
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Follow Up By: fisho64 - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 00:54
Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 00:54
i think your barking up the wrong tree gary, the oil is under pressure , around 40 to 80 PSI depending on the vehicle after it is picked up by oil pickup then pushed into bearings and sprayed under the pistons but the crankcase is only under blowby pressure, slightly above atmosphere.
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Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 01:31
Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 01:31
"...would always be under pressure when the engine is running, at the very least the PCV blowoff pressure in the sump.... "
What I said.....
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Reply By: bundyman - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 11:25
Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 11:25
I think what Stuart is getting at is the rapid cooling of a hot oil sump will create its own vacuum. Try this at home - leave an empty coke bottle with the lid off in the sun for a while and then put the cap on and stick it in the fridge for 10 minutes - the result will be a sucked in coke bottle - thats a natural vacuum you get when hot things cool down. Thats how Stuart is suggesting the dirt and
water gets in past the seals. Correct me if I'm wrong Stuart.
Cheers,
Hughesy
AnswerID:
90637