Running a Waeco CK-40 with inverter in car

Submitted: Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 09:54
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I'm currently in the market for a car fridge- but there is a hell of a price difference between the CK-40 fridge that runs off 240V ($299) and the CDF-35 that runs off 12V ($649). Which got me thinking- could I get the bigger CK-40 and an inverter and run that in the vehicle? Any auto-elecs out ther that have ideas? The Waeco catalogue does not specify what current the CK-40 draws.
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Reply By: Member - Jimbo (VIC) - Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 10:45

Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 10:45
OK Brian,

I'll have a go.

I think when I looked at it they draw 60 watts (5 amps). Plus add maybe 1 amp for the inverter. This is power when running, however the inverter will stiil draw power when the fridge is not running, I think. On the whole it will draw more than a 12 v fridge, exactly how much, I'm not sure.

Then there are other questions that I can't answer;

Will it work on an angle?
Will running it on an angle damage the compressor as with normal household fridges?
Will it run of a cheapie modified square wave inverter or will you need a pure sine wave (expensive but then they have other uses)?
Does it have tie down points? (I think not from memory).
Does it have a basket to stop the insides taking a beating?

Food for thought.

Cheers,

Jim.
AnswerID: 90339

Reply By: Nudenut - Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 11:00

Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 11:00
most inverters from elctronic shops do not or will not be suitable for a copressr type fridge....so check with shop first before purchase
AnswerID: 90341

Reply By: Mainey... - Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 11:13

Saturday, Dec 25, 2004 at 11:13
Brian,

contact Reefer Refrigeration in Adelaide

http://www.refrigerationresearch.com.au/

they manufacture refrigeration equipment for the commercial fishing industry amongst various other things and also large and small portable fridges, all using INVERTERS to run 240v rotary mitsubitshi compressors, similar to your 'normal' home fridge.

Power consumption is not a problem!

Mainey...
AnswerID: 90342

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 at 17:20

Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 at 17:20
Brian...what mainey says is incorrect....size for size: inverter driven fridges using 240v compressors on 12vdc, use considerably more power than a fridge with 12vdc compressor running on 12vdc

Mainey, put up you figures or shut up with this nonsense
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Reply By: Chaz - Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 at 05:23

Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 at 05:23
Hi Brian,

It will work, provided that you have a large enough inverter. A square wave will run it, but it must be able to overcome the start up current of the fridge.

I ran a 90 litre, 70 watt bar fridge on an 800 watt inverter for about a year, until one of the lines to the compressor fractured due to vibration on corrigated roads, but until then, it worked a treat. Also the angle of the fridge didn't seem to bother it too much.

If I was going to do it again, I would solidly mount the compressor, so that it wouldn't jump around and break the copper tubes.

I still think this could be a cheap alternative.

Merry Christmas!
Chaz
http://members.bettanet.net.au/~conody/index.htm
AnswerID: 90367

Reply By: porlsprado - Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 at 13:27

Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 at 13:27
Does a 12v appliance that needs 36w on 12 volt use 36W at 240v and does that work for the reverse - ie. does a 168W applicance on 240v use same power on 12v taking into account work out what rectifier/inverter you need ? This comes out of genuine curiosity. Have been running a 12v fridge off the weaco mobi thingo and notice it is rated at .6 of an amp which is 144W whereas the fridge on 12 volt is rated at 42Watts so is the mobi rectifier only rated to take account of the start up spike and it actually on draws 42w from the mobitronics rectifier or am i missing something here.

Reason for curiosity, if i need an extra fridge am trying to work out whether its cheaper plugging in the waeco or running the 240volt fridge cause obviously 36w is a whole lot less than 168W even taking into account rectifier/inverter inefficiencies which i understand to be about 20% max. Help am i do plan to buy electronics for dummies, was hoping was under the christmas tree but no luck.
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 at 14:15

Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 at 14:15
>Does a 12v appliance that needs 36w on 12 volt use 36W at 240v

Yes. The formula is Watts = Volts X Amps, so at 12V to power a 36W item will require 3 amps but at 240V it will only require 0.15 amps.

You can calculate the other two with: Volts = Watts / Amps and Amps = Watts / Volts.

>does a 168W applicance on 240v use same power on 12v

Yes. The power requirement of an item always remains the same irrespective of the voltage or current capability of your supply - mind you if your supply cannot produce enough current the item might not work and if your supply produces too much voltage you might blow the item up! So at 12V you will require 14 amps and at 240V you will require 0.7 amps for 168 watts.

I don't understand your question about the "weaco mobi thingo"?

Note: this is a simplified explanation but applies to most/all items which do not quote different power levels for different supply voltages.

Mike Harding

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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 11:35

Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 11:35
mmm does'nt power factor apply to AC motors and not DC motors Mike?

therefore the amps would be closer to .1666?


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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 17:28

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 17:28
Quite correct, by definition, at DC the current and voltage will always be in phase.

An AC motor will have a power factor but the electricity supply authority would like it to be close to unity and you would need to know the actual power factor in order to calculate the current but I think you are assuming the current will increase with a falling PF - which is correct.

But I think the OP would rather we left power factor and out of phase current/voltages relationships for another day :)

Mike Harding

mike_harding@fastmail.fm
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 17:32

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 17:32
agreed....if it looks like i'm going backward on this, But I wont .. i'll have something to fall back on eh?

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Follow Up By: Member - Brett H (QLD) - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 19:09

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 19:09
It is acceptable to use 0.8 as the power factor .
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 19:13

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 19:13
as much as that?
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 20:08

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 20:08
A quick Google suggests a PF of 0.8 is by no means too low for small AC motors.

Mike Harding

PS. I've lost the plot of this thread by now - just let me know which of you is right in the end please :)
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 20:17

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 20:17
I am of course........
be brave....make up your own mind....but beware the bullsh-t
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 22:35

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 22:35
0.8 PF is ok for a small AC motor IMHO.
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 11:08

Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 11:08
I agree ...i just couldnt recall it being as high as that
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Follow Up By: Member - Brett H (QLD) - Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 20:12

Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 20:12
Rule of thumb is 0.8 Pf Ac motor under load.
At no load they would be almost isochronous ther for the Pf would be almost unity. It is however best to err on the side of caution and 0.8 give you a continuous current allowance of between 0 and 25% up your sleeve.

The spike or start current is caused by the power factor actually being 0 the instant the motor is started..

Another rule of thumb is 7 x run current for motors less that 30hp
6 x run current for motors 30 to 50 hp
5 x run curent for motors 50 hp +

Teh above is for 3 phase 415v.

Someone may find this useful.
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:22

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:22
what about part-wind start?
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:29

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:29
theres heaps of reduced current options, but all are the realm of the LARGE motor, star-delta, reduced voltage are two of, but they cost big dollars, hardly an option for an oversised compressor motor in a car fridge.
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Reply By: porlsprado - Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 at 18:51

Sunday, Dec 26, 2004 at 18:51
Thanks Mike

The mobi thingo question was just i guess you have to take into account whatever inneficiencies are of the unit you are using to modify AC to DC or vice versa. The mobitronics rectifier (this is what it calles itself) has an input current of 0.6amps at 240v to transform this to an output of 5amps (60w). But the danfoss compressor is rated at max. 3.5amps on 12v so is the extra power and current about spike or inefficiency or both ?

So i guess this leads to another question, if the mobi unit is rated at an input current of 0.6amps at 240 does it require 0.6amps at 240v all the time or because it is all electronics and mofset things and no mechanical device i suppose only enough power is converted to DC as is required by the other side of the unit in this case being the 36w fridge ?

But at the end of the day i suppose you would agree that if the 36w 12v appliance run off 240v AC off a rectifier with an input current of 0.6amps does the cooling job then it would be way more efficient to run than the 168w appliance on 240V ? The only factor then being how more efficient the 240v fridge cools as opposed to the 12v fridge, but that is the great unknown to me, opinions welcome. Couldn't be buggered sitting down and monitoring the average amount of time each compressor runs each hour, then again i am on holidays ...
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Monday, Dec 27, 2004 at 11:33

Monday, Dec 27, 2004 at 11:33
any electrical device that generates heat (using electricity) is wasted energy....inefficiencies within the inverter

Generally. and to keep it simple the heat rejected by the condenser of a fridge is made up of two lots of heat
1. The product being refrigerated being approximately 70% of total heat rejected.
2. Approximately 30% of the total heat rejected is due to electrical and friction losses in the compressor.

Now if one adds more electrical items ie an inverter the inefficiencies keep getting higher meaning more amps are consumed to cool the same amount of product
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Follow Up By: Mainey... - Monday, Dec 27, 2004 at 19:40

Monday, Dec 27, 2004 at 19:40
Nudenut,

No one is, has, or does deny the actual inverter uses energy to work..

READ as; NO ONE, no person and no company, now or in the past!
however the amount of power the actual inverter uses is miniscule!

The fact is;

an inverter does use electrical energy to power a 240v compressor, HOWEVER that compressor in actual FACT pushes MORE refrigerant around the fridge, because the 240v compressor capacity is far larger, therefore cooling the inside product, food, far quicker than a smaller 12v compressor, and so in any reasonable time period eg; 24hours the inverter driven fridge is working for far LESS TIME (not screaming - just letting you see the truth) repeat, less time, and does use less battery power over a longer period of time, than a smaller 12v compressor that in the higher ambient temps of Northern Aussie can be working for 18 hours daily if not full time, in the back of a vehicle.

#Sealed Compressor Efficiency

Refrigeration compressor types have a very differing ability to convert the INPUT energy consumed into energy OUTPUT.
This in fact is called the co-efficient rating.

The co-efficient factor of a typical piston compressor operating as a freezer would be 0.92, yet as a refrigerator this figure would increase to 1.55.

Cabinet Temp -- (Piston Compressor) --- {Rotary Compressor}
-15ºc Freezer, -- (0.92) --- {1.09}
+ 2ºc Refrigerator, -- (1.55) --- {1.82}

#Calculating Power Consumption

Having selecting the correct co-efficient factor, it is now possible to calculate the amount of battery power to be consumed.
(Amp hours at 12 volts, per day) Amp hours consumed per day is the total heat load divided by the relevant co-efficient factor, then divided by 12 (Power supply volts)

Example:
A 50 litre cabinet in a 40ºc environment (616 THL), used as a refrigerator with a rotary compressor system (1.82 CEF) powered from a 12 volt battery, would calculate as;
616 divided by 1.82, divided by 12, equals 28.2 Amps per day
or an average consumption of 1.18 Amps per hour (on a daily basis).

The hours of running time per day depend on the capacity and efficiency of the refrigeration unit applied.

A small system with low rated current draw will ALSO have a low refrigeration OUTPUT, therefore the co-efficient factor and adequate OUTPUT should be the major considerations for BEST ECONOMY and assurance of required performance.

NudeNut,
I do hope you can actually understand the above information and as you so vehemently believe you are right; I ask you to "prove beyond any reasonable doubt" the above information is incorrect..

IF you can, then yes I will shut up as you have requested of me.. if not an apology will be accepted
(however not expected as it takes a man to admit when he is wrong)

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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 14:00

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 14:00
Mainey,
Your ridiculus explanation that ‘pushing’ the refrigerant around faster in a fridge/freezer by an oversized compressor supposedly gives better performance only shows the limited knowledge you have of refrigeration.

Firstly, I note you have assumed that all fridge/freezer units are the same…….I am in accord for the sake of your calculations. And that we do refer to a main power supply of 12vdc being the only power available.

Secondly, and let us start with efficiency of inverters. Typical efficiencies are 85% meaning 15% are heat losses or 15% of current used is wasted. This is not a minuscule amount of energy Mainey!

Thirdly, a oversized compressor in a fridge (or freezer) shows up as wasted energy wasted as it comsumes more current to keep the darn thing turning regardless of load! A simple example would be to fit a 600 watt compressor to a system requiring one of 60 watts at the required duty. Are you really trying to me that the 60 watt compressor is as energy hungry the 600watt? Put another way…. Why don’t manufacturers of domestic fridges put in compressors of twice the required capacity than necessary…because they don’t own Electricity Supply Co’s and their products get more stars for efficiency…

I continue…..

Fourthly, and as you are already aware, a compressors’ performance drops away at lower suction pressures…and as the refrigerant is temperature/pressure related the Larger compressor must pull lower suction pressures meaning its overall CEF has dropped…..

I wont even bother with thermal dynamics of R134a and its performnce at lower suction pressures created by the Oversized 240V rotary compressor you claim are so efficient….mmm and lets not forget the increased head pressures also created by the oversized donk!

Geez, I could go on but I wont

I cam appologise...I apologise for not being being able to agree with your ludicrus assertions that inverter driven fridges or freezers are energy efficient ….. you that are pig-headed Mainey…I can not believe that someone of your knowledge ( i now know that you are somewhat knowledgeable albeit, misguided) can continuously declare that inverter driven units are more efficient….mmm I wonder if I should put a 8hp compressor in my nominal rated 4 hp airconditioning unit and get more oomph! Be real!

Mainey, there is just far too much data to post here-in, that which is required to enable you to calculate the truth! How-ever and if you wish I can photo copy revelant stuff and post?

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Follow Up By: Mainey... - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 14:59

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 14:59
NudeNut,
without being too pedantic,
You posted (quote) Your ridiculus explanation that ‘pushing’ the refrigerant around faster in a fridge/freezer by an oversized compressor supposedly gives better performance only shows the limited knowledge you have of refrigeration. (end quote) No, it does not!

NudeNut, I challenge you to please explain how refrigerant creates the cooling effect in a fridge without implying or using the terms the refrigerant actually 'moves' or using the term 'push' or 'pressurised' which actually causes it to be 'pushed' in basic Simple terminology!
Because that is what a compressor does...it 'moves' the refridgerant by compressing it and "pushing" it around the fridge...Fact!

I posted "because the 240v compressor CAPACITY is far larger, therefore cooling the inside product, food,… faster"
I did not use terminology stating the actual compressor is "oversized" …. you did that!

In fact a Mitsubishi rotary compressor is actually SMALLER in physical size than a comparative piston compressor, however, due to its rotary configuration it actually pumps a larger CAPACITY of refrigerant from a smaller physical size!...Fact.

NudeNut You posted (quote) A simple example would be to fit a 600 watt compressor to a system requiring one of 60 watts at the required duty.(end quote)
You are now talking about ‘electrical’ energy, I have never stated the compressor power stated as WATTS, I only posted about Refrigerant compressor CAPACITY and there is absolutely no similarities between the two terms... Fact.

NudeNut,
I am not making this a personal thing against you, however you are putting into the post things that I have not said, as I posted; if you can prove what I have actually posted is wrong then please post the "LINK" to the correct information, don’t revert to childish name calling just to avoid the ...facts.
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 16:37

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 16:37
Fact...the compressor is a means of providing a pressure differential across a component commonly refered to as a "refrigerant control device" in this scenario it is called the capillary tube!

Now, we have a high pressure side and a low pressure side, separated by capillary and compressor. The compressor when running removes the vapour refrigerant in the evaporator which has boiled off due to the heat-load of the product (cans of beer or what-ever) in the evaporator section of the fridge. (Without the compressor the pressure would increase until it had equalised out and no more heat removal could occur). The compressor discharges the vapour ) along with the heat of the cans of beer) into the condenser ( i wont even mention why superheating of the refrigerant takes place during the compression cycle and what happens to it!). The condenser allows this super heated vapour refrigerant to condense into a high pressure liquid before it flows thru the refrigerant control device and into the low pressure evaporator to continue the cycle of refrigeration.

Fact: Any compressor which has a displacement capacity greater than what is needed to match the refrigerant being boiled in the evaporator section while maintaining designed practicable low and high pressure sides with minimal energy inputs, can be considered to be Oversized!!!…

Physical size of the compressor has absolutely nothing to do with this! Displacement and output (refrigeration capacity) and together with total input watts does.

No!!! I was not talking about 600 watt motor capacity….but rather I was talking about 600Wr compressor capacity and I reckon you know this!

I can only give you so many facts….you must choose to believe or discard….I know my trade qualifications and abilities, but I must admit, I am still learning….what I have said here is only “basic” refrigeration principles….

So there it is ….are you the thick head or am I?
ps send me your address and I will collate all the data for you to test and identify where you have been misguided.
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Follow Up By: Mainey... - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 17:24

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 17:24
Nudenut posted this follow-up,
"Fact...the compressor is a means of providing a PRESURE differential" -- the word I stated was 'pressurised' yes the gas is pressured, put under 'preasure' or 'pushed' as I stated, and you have denied....
and you still are using the word "oversized" why is that?

The facts remains, the statements I made re;

#Sealed Compressor Efficiency
and also
#Calculating Power Consumption, have not and can't be disproved!

This thread has gone so far off the original track it is now only a funny story and I believe it is time to quit, I will no longer be posting to your replies in this thread as it is being vandalised by us ... both.
-or-
A better idea is for you to start a new thread relevant to your own thoughts on fridge compressors.

Do I think your a thick head.. No, do you?
I have never implied that, I don't know you to make that hypothesis, enjoy your holls….
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 22:42

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 22:42
umm guys, reading the Reefer site and looking at their graph, a 50l cabinet at 40deg C ambient operating as a fridge would have a THL under 500 as far as I read it. So the cal above is for it running as a freezer (THL of 616) therefore the CEF is 1.09 for a rotary. The figs are wrong in that case on the site by my reading.
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 22:44

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 22:44
Also...the bit about recharging is incongruous with the rest of the info, its also confusing. Mind you it also states the bleeding obvious.

"To maintain 24 hour continuous battery power for a system as above, the following methods of recharge will indicate how simple using a 12/240 volt system can be...1.An 80 watt solar panel (usually 30 to 50 amps/day) OR 2.Boat motor alternator (30 plus minutes per day) OR 3.Mains or generated 240 volt powering fridge unit while also charging battery OR 4.Wind or propeller generation OR a combination of several of these sources"
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 10:57

Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 10:57
Bonz....the heat loads on the web site are assumed loadings....different product ie water to make ice versus storage of apples have different heat loads.. .....takes a lot of heat removal just to change the state of water to ice.....in addition to lower its temp....confused?

The refrigeration capacity of a compressor is rated at a prescribed suction temperature , ambient temp and condensing temp.....
The power consumed to get this capacity is input energy....

watts refrigeration divided by input energy gives the so called coefficient factor of the Compressor Only .....this is not the total refrigeration capacity of the whole shabang.

Other factors/items such as insulation, condenser capacity (Condensing temperature), Evaporator capacity (suction temperatur), refrigerant control device (length and size), amount of refrigerant and lets not forget type of refrigearnt, are just a few other which affects the performance of the compressors ability to remove heat from the slabs of beer.....These are not minor and alter the total heat removal requirements considerably.... i wont even talk about the thermal conductance of alloy V that shiny material they use...but compare...
eg...no insulation...(try keeping your beer cold)....versus 20mm versus 50mm .... of insulation etc etc.

I'm not even going to look at that recharging stuff ...hahaha
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Reply By: porlsprado - Monday, Dec 27, 2004 at 21:14

Monday, Dec 27, 2004 at 21:14
Mainey, now that was interesting. i arrived at the importance of compressor co-efficient numbers when researching compressors for my house air-conditioner expenditure, oh i so wanted the scroll compressor but due to cost ended up settling for the twin rotary but hoping the inverter and whiz bang electronics would make up for the lesser efficiency numbers. Never seen these figures for fridge compressors though, what sort of fridge do you have by the way ?
AnswerID: 90491

Follow Up By: Mainey... - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 15:23

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 15:23
porlsprado,
at this point in time I am without a 12v fridge, however for 6 years I had a rotary compressor powered Liemack, I sold it last year when I was offered a deal too good to refuse, and in the knowledge that a new model was soon to be available, thus giving me a distinct advantage and working knowledge of rotary compressor fridges.

I will get the new Reefer with the Mitsubishi rotary compressor prior to going back to the Kimberleys for the winter.
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Reply By: porlsprado - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 16:34

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 16:34
Guys, am following this with breathless anticipation and hope that there is no misleading info on here that i have picked up that has not been corrected. I hazard to guess you are both getting closer to agreeing.

Just curious what are you're qualifications or are you both talking from personal hobbyist experience. I have a trade totally unrelated to these matters so thus am a hobbyist without in-depth knowldege of anything but i do know about COP's and wish i could have afforded my Mitsubishi Heavy Industries scroll compressor for my air conditioner. I note Mainey's main post was a cut and paste from the reefer site, not that there is anything wrong with this as it is a good explanation but does leave stuff out that i would have thought important like if the inverter does have a 15% wastage, and i know my inverters are terrible at this and my getto blaster at 16w sucks a lot more than that watts when run though my 100w inverter, but then again maybe its wastage is because it is such a cheap inverter - that's only a question -

I did ask a similar original question to Mr Electricity in the US, got a narky response that didn't answer my question really but he did hint that in his opinion that 240v fridge would bemore energy efficient at cooling than the 12v and especially when using 240v AC current regulated to 12v DC which would counter the lower power requirement of the 12v fridge for a similar sized space.

But, the old reefer i understand from sites like this and Overlander did use a pretty average inverter that did create a lot of waste and was very hard on people's batteries and ... well then mabey i am just believeing what somebody else said, oh the variables, my head hurts. Buy i can't believe the Reefer site doesn't give the power consumption of their fridges, or the 240V waeco for that matter, though would be easy enough to see you just look at the compliance plate hey as all electrical appliciances 12v or 240v have to so anyone seen this AC waeco yet ?

And in the interest of science and to keep us all busy how about someone try this:

http://www.goodideacreative.com/shfc_sys.html
AnswerID: 90551

Follow Up By: Mainey... - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 17:48

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 17:48
porlsprado

This is cut & pasted from the Reefer website...

And yes it does state the power consumption of their fridge........

# Calculating Power Consumption
Having obtained your cabinets total 24 hour heat load from the table above and selecting the correct co-efficient factor, it is now possible to calculate the amount of battery power to be consumed. (Amp hours at 12 volts, per day) Amp hours consumed per day is the total heat load divided by the relevant co-efficient factor, then divided by 12. (Power supply volts)
For example:
A 50 litre cabinet in a 40ºc environment (616 THL), used as a refrigerator with a rotary compressor system (1.82 CEF), powered from a 12 volt battery, would calculate as: 616 divided by 1.82, divided by 12, equals 28.2 Amps per day, or an average consumption of 1.18 Amps per hour.

Why would I sell a rotary compressor powered fridge and then buy a new fridge of similar but more efficient design if I was unhappy with the first one in any way at all?

So it is from my personal experience, I can confirm the figures above are relevant to the Reefer range of 50Lt fridge....
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Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Victoria) - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 18:56

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 18:56
porlsprado, have a look at this chart for a fridge comparasion
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 08:50

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 08:50
Porlsprado, I am a qualified fridgie...some 35yrs in the trade...with some 7yrs of extra curiculum. I have worked with leading maufacturers of airconditioning equipment having in both service and sales to the trade and major corporations and Gov. I have commissioned and capacity tested systems for total capacity output and energy consumed to prove systems meet Manufacturers published and printed performance and or clients specified energy consumption and specified capacity.

Typical efficiencies of inverters are around 85%

the reefer site does not explain all all losses. ...just look at the chart on the reefer site...the mitsi comp output is twice that of the danfoss and as such the coefficient factor will drop away rapidly at lower suction pressures just compare factors at -10 and -23 of any compressor and it you will see what I mean. The larger compressor will having a greater displacement capacity will remove more vapour lowering the r134a pressure and hence its temperature the pressure at -10 is 14 psig while at -23c is 2 psig. At the lower temp the gas is less dense and therefore the compressor efficincy drops away ...so if the compressor is twice tha size it should be lets say the suction presure will be around 7 inches of vacuum (approx negative 3.5 psig)((and I am erring in the favour of mainey here)) The vapour at this pressure would be less dense so the compressor would have a lower coefficient

A 12v compressor runing off 12V is more efficient than a (albeit it an oversized one) compressor runing off 12vdc converted to 240vac....fact.... something mainey cannot see. Why did the reefer site deliberatly leave out the inverter when doing their calculations (and why do they build 12 vdc systems?)..... If 240 were the way to go...Danfoss, Masterflux and several others would not go down this path....why did Reefer...cos it makes the fridge cheaper to manufacture...and that means there is a market...why do the others persist with 12volt from 12 volts?

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FollowupID: 349212

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 09:15

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 09:15
-10ºc evaporator.
(Industry Standard)

Output Watts Co-ef
Danfoss BD 1.
Comp Model Co-ef Input Watts/Amps
Danfoss BD 1.68
Mitsubishi RR120 1.79
Check these out...nothing like the figures Mainey posted above...and taken from the reefer site!!!
take 15% away from the Mitsi compressor coefficient and drops to below that of the danfoss....check it out on the reefer site.
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FollowupID: 349213

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 11:18

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 11:18
Look what I came up with
Coefficient figures for each compressor used in say a fifty – 80 litre fridge at a suction temp of –10c (approximately +2C fridge temp)
Danfoss 12 VDC Compressor 1.68

Mitsubishi 240V RR120 rotary compressor 1.79

At suction temp -23.3 C (approx –15C cabinet temp)
Danfoss 1.09

Mitsi 1.21

As inverters are at best approximately 85% efficient, it can be clearly seen that multiplying the mitsi figure by .85 we get co-efficient factors less than the Danfoss!!! Fact!

The co-efficient figures were taken from the “Understanding DC power” page on the Refrigeration Research web site.

Mainey is one of those wallies dismisses what he does not like to see or hear….. he was not able to question the figures displayed on “Understanding Refrigeration - a basic description” page as he is not qualified to do so and hence failed to read a bit further ..if he did, he made sure not to tell us.

If one carefully reads the “basic” page you will note that they use words such as
“typical”
and phrases such as
“the following co-efficient factors could be applied”

Now this is not lying or misleading but it does not tell the whole story. Where-as the DC power page does say it all er I mean part of it… as it lists both manufacturers published data for each model.
Don’t take it from me…read what Refrigeration Research says!!!!!

Then add in all the rest that they have’nt told you about……………….

ie,,,,,, It failed to tell us the of inefficiencies of inverters, and other losses, such as lower suction pressure due to oversized compressor which results in ADDITIONAL LOSS of compressor co-efficient and greater power consumption due to friction losses in said oversized compressor…the list can go on……………………………zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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FollowupID: 349221

Follow Up By: Mainey... - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 19:02

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 19:02
NudeNut,
your such a hero..
talk about looking through blue coloured glass’s or wearing blinkers to avoid seeing the facts and the truth!

You have read a test RESULT that gives the figures you are accepting above to be true....

BUT then ....
in your own wisdom, you go and take a further 15% off the actual test RESULT just to get a figure that is more suitable to your own argument!

Because the fridge has to be tested WITH the inverter running the actual test RESULT obtained does already INCLUDE any and all loss's from the inverter...

(Quote) -->Amp hours consumed per day is the total heat load divided by the relevant co-efficient factor, then divided by 12. (Power supply volts) For example: a 50 litre cabinet in a 40ºc environment (616 THL), used as a refrigerator with a ROTARY COMPRESSOR SYSTEM (1.82 CEF), powered from a 12 volt battery, would calculate as: 616 divided by 1.82, divided by 12, equals 28.2 Amps per day, or an average consumption of 1.18 Amps per hour. (end quote)

(Quote)
Co-efficient factors of compressors commonly used in portable refrigerators.

-10ºc evaporator -23.3ºc evaporator (Industry Standard)

Comp Model Input Watts/Amps Output Watts Co-ef Input Watts/Amps Output Watts Co-ef
Danfoss BD 35 --68.9/5.74 115 1.68 45.4/3.78 49.7 1.09
Danfoss BD 50 --93.4/7.78 153 1.64 62.5/5.21 72.9 1.17
Mitsubishi RR120 --146/12.2 262 1.79 98.4/8.2 119 1.21
Mitsubishi RR210 --249/20.8 457 1.83 176/14.6 209 1.18 (end quote)

Nudenut,
Dahhhh, you don't have to go and take away 15% from the actual test result obtained because it is already included in those test results and yes it still gives a better result with the inverter because it is a rotary compressor giving a larger CAPACITY and not a piston compressor with only one cylinder....

Please get your facts right, it would be nice of you to show me where any manufacturer of inverter does state their product uses the 15% loss you are talking about, I can link you to a few that claim 0.05w up to 0.6w which is absolutely nowhere near 15%, which is just another figment of your vivid imagination.

Take of the blue blinkers and admit you made a mistake, it won’t hurt, instead of attempting to take 15% off existing test results, or attempt to explain in the ADI test results how all the small fridges got a test result almost half (1/2) of the result stated by their manufacturers, now that is a puzzle??

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FollowupID: 349261

Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Victoria) - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 20:45

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 20:45
>attempt to explain in the ADI test results how all the small fridges got a >test result almost half (1/2) of the result stated by their manufacturers, >now that is a puzzle??

The only manufacturers test figures I've seen are from the Sawafuji company who manufacture the Engel. I don't know how it relates to the real world but the tests were conducted with no load at ambient temps of 25c, 35c and 45c at cabinet temps of 5c, -5c and max on the dial.
The max amps draw of 2.35/hr with a 100% running time occurred with an ambient of 45c where the MT45 could only achieve a cabinet temp of -2c. The min draw was only 0.54 amp/hr with an ambient of 25c and a cabinet temp of 5c, running time 24%

These figures would appear to indicate a smaller draw than stated by Engel and more in line with the adi test.

Have you got any other real test figures Mainey that quote ambient and cabinet temps. An amp/hr figure without temps is useless for comparison
purposes

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FollowupID: 349265

Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Victoria) - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 21:12

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 21:12
Here's the chart. What do you make of it...anyone?
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FollowupID: 349269

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 22:26

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 22:26
Mainey,
i have spent considerable time today researching what I have explained many times in this thread.

Quote
"
Because the fridge has to be tested WITH the inverter running the actual test RESULT obtained does already INCLUDE any and all loss's from the inverter... " end quote.....prove it!

My info says that the figures refered to on that page are 240V input ....and therefore do not represent anything else. Search the net mainey and find the manufacturers data and input for that compressor...based on 240V as I have done!!!

Pick up any electronic magazine such as jaycar and or check this site here mainey!!!! if it works
And remember (and yes I am a name caller) wanka, I still dont know your qualifications?
now dont get me started on compressor volumetric efficiency ....will you!
Geez you are a ass
I give up...you can lead a mule to water but you cant make him drink!!!!
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FollowupID: 349282

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Thursday, Dec 30, 2004 at 10:32

Thursday, Dec 30, 2004 at 10:32
me give up....not likely...its only taken me 2 hours to confirm but I dont give in easily!!!! hehehe

Now MAiney, if your going to tell me that a comp manufacturer who makes 240v compressors is going to test his comps running via a inverter rather than running directly from 240v....? who do you think we are....trying to pull the wool over fellow EO members and visitors...indeed!

I know what your about to say ....let me say it for you....Refrigeration Research carried out their own testing using 12vdc supply and inverter to 240v and then colated all data and either interpolated or extrapolated the test results......and.....
the frequency out put of the inverter was tested and proved that it could supply and maintain a constant 45-50 cycles of 240v power under all load conditions. The suction pressure was simulated to suit the probable or epxtected and typical varying load conditions (all of which of course influenece the compressors performance etc etc etc .....
Indeed!?
Bullsh*#

Quote
"Because the fridge has to be tested WITH the inverter running the actual test RESULT obtained does already INCLUDE any and all loss's from the inverter..." end quote ....bulldadash!!!!

Here's the real story folks.....
the data shown on Refrigeration Research web site for the compressor models as listed is a reprint... A Reprint, of the Compressors Manufacturers' published literature....all at 240 v 50 hertz
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FollowupID: 349301

Follow Up By: Mainey... - Thursday, Dec 30, 2004 at 14:08

Thursday, Dec 30, 2004 at 14:08
Nudenut

(quoted) Now Mainey, if your going to tell me that a comp manufacturer who makes 240v compressors is going to test his comps running via a inverter rather than running directly from 240v....? who do you think we are....trying to pull the wool over fellow EO members and visitors...indeed! (end quote)

NudeNut, below is a 12 volt test, it even uses the number 12 … and not 240, that answers your question, but then do you know the 12 referrs to 12 Volts?
So yes, I suggest a manufacturer who makes a 12v fridge will test his product in the conditions they are to be used!

(Quote)-->Amp hours consumed per day is the total heat load divided by the relevant co-efficient factor, then divided by 12. (Power supply volts)
For example: a 50 litre cabinet in a 40ºc environment (616 THL), used as a refrigerator with a ROTARY COMPRESSOR SYSTEM (1.82 CEF), POWERED FROM A 12 VOLT BATTERY, would calculate as: 616 divided by 1.82, divided by 12, equals 28.2 Amps per day, or an average consumption of 1.18 Amps per hour.(end quote)

NudeNut; DISPROVE the above mathematical equation.....

.. O R ..

Accept the fact that a Mitsubishi rotary compressor powered fridge average’s 1.18 a/h as indicated above, the inverter loss is not relevant, as the TEST RESULT includes this loss with-in the RESULT, the same result can be expected in daily use in the bush with a 12 volt battery as the power source as indicated, and that is all that will matter to people who buy a fridge.

You can extraplicate all the numbers you like in an attempt to confuse people without the detailed technical refrigeration knowledge, you have attempted to take this post off track by creating arguments for your own benefit, it does not make you right.
As is often said 'Keep It Simple Stu###' --- and to the point.

As to my own qualifications…Ummm they would amaze even you!

Now that is my final word on this thread, to all I say enjoy your New Year and may it bring you happiness in whatever form you desire!!!
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FollowupID: 349307

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Thursday, Dec 30, 2004 at 23:01

Thursday, Dec 30, 2004 at 23:01
HEY there you two combatants, by all means slug it out with the facts and figures as you see it but theres no need to make it personal. PLease?
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FollowupID: 349370

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 08:02

Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 08:02
Hey Bonz....if you aint got something contructive to say...shut up will you
lol lol lol
one gets frustrated when trying to get a a a well lets say he's resists change to accept the facts eh eh ...

is that better...lol lol lol
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FollowupID: 349389

Follow Up By: Mainey... - Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 10:05

Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 10:05
Bonz (Vic),
I was the recipient not the instigator of said remarks, that stated I have a question for you....

Do you actually believe the statements posted below, from the Reefer website, are relevant to 12 Volt or do you believe it is referring to 240 Volt as nudenut is attempting to make you and other EO members believe.

I can't see his problem of accepting the facts as they are printed, as it actually states "POWERED FROM a 12 VOLT BATTERY" and nowhere does it state 240v or any relevance at all in any way to 240v.

(Quote)
Calculating Power Consumption
Having obtained your cabinets total 24 hour heat load from the table above and selecting the correct co-efficient factor, it is now possible to calculate the amount of battery power to be consumed. (Amp hours at 12 volts, per day) Amp hours consumed per day is the total heat load divided by the relevant co-efficient factor, then divided by 12. (Power supply volts)

For example: a 50 litre cabinet in a 40ºc environment (616 THL), used as a refrigerator with a rotary compressor system (1.82 CEF), POWERED FROM a 12 VOLT BATTERY, would calculate as: 616 divided by 1.82, divided by 12, equals 28.2 Amps per day, or an average consumption of 1.18 Amps per hour.

A small system with low rated current draw will also have a low refrigeration output, therefore the co-efficient factor and adequate output should be the major considerations for best economy and assurance of required performance. (End Quote)

May 2005 deliver happiness and fullfill your desires
Mainey...
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FollowupID: 349404

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 10:25

Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 10:25
>Do you actually believe the statements posted below,
>from the Reefer website, are relevant to 12 Volt or do
>you believe it is referring to 240 Volt as nudenut is
>attempting to make you and other EO members believe.

Why don't one of you two e-mail them and ask?

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 349407

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 11:07

Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 11:07
Mainey,
Lets take this one step at a time eh?

Do you agree or disagree with basic fact....

If the mitsi RR120 refrigeration compressor has a "coefficient factor" of 1.21 at a suction temperature of -23.3 C the factor will be lower at any evaporator suction temperature lower than -23.3 C?

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FollowupID: 349412

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 22:12

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 22:12
Mainey, you asked and heres my considered opinion:

The Reefer explanation uses power consumed against refrigeration power delivered to calculate its Coefficient factor. It calls the power consumed "Refrigeration energy". As Nudie mentions above, although the units may be the same (watts) but they must be different in practice. Hence a CEF of 1.5 means it delivers 50% more refrigeration watts than it consumes in electrical watts (regardless of the voltage).

So if the Refrigeration energy is a given at say 150 watts/hr (w/hr), then the required electrical energy to deliver that (for a CEF of 1.5) would be 100 w/hr. The way I read that would be the energy delivered at the START of the refrigeration cycle. Thats after the loss in the cables to the fridge and subsequent losses thru an inverter (if used), connections etc. If we assume 15% losses throughout this system then the battery would have to deliver 115 w/hr to cover the losses. For a 12v supply this would be about 9.6 amp/hr, at 240v its about half an amp/hr.

The calculation on the reefer website and variously copied throughout this thread, in my opinion, does not allow for the losses, it takes a simplistic view in simply dividing input watts by volts. P=IV is only correct in perfect (no loss) conditions.

I also reckon that by using a calculated CEF against Refrigeration energy to calculate input amp/hrs also does not (in fact can not) take losses into account then calculating total power draw from the battery.

So there you have it, you asked me and dammit I went and read and tried to undersatand from my grasp of elec theory from 20 yrs ago. What still puzzles me is where the extra energy comes from? How do you get a CEF over 1.0 I mean. I know heat pumps in houses have a similar thermal efficiency, just cant remember exactly what the wizardry is that makes it possible.

QED ..... Bonz
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FollowupID: 349563

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 11:05

Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 11:05
Bonz...you read well and take in even better....

I'll explain why heatpumps get high cop's to you one day

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FollowupID: 349582

Reply By: porlsprado - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 19:32

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 19:32
Hey Mad Dog (who i thought was our left winger, what's he doing in Victoria, he's meant to be in the Solomon Islands demilitarising militias - and not doing to well by the sounds of it)

Just curious as to the source of that chart, I actually have a 4wd Monthly magazine from a few years ago which featured the test they did at the ADI centre but on that test Liemack would not supply a fridge (excuse was due to demand) so it did not feature in the test. Did they do another test in the last couple years ?
AnswerID: 90566

Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Victoria) - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 20:27

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 20:27
There's a few imposters around but there is only one true mad dog and he was a Victorian bush ranger, the rest of use live in awe :)

I don't know the source. The chart was posted on the web sometime ago but the price of the fridges are as of 01/01/03. What is the date of the mag you have.
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FollowupID: 349177

Follow Up By: Mainey... - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 23:22

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 23:22
porlsprado,
Yes you have a good memory

Another way of looking at it is the word Reefer is included in the test, the fact is Reefer did not make portable fridges when they did that test and there was NO connection between Liemack and Reefer, again proving the test results are faked up.

In fact….. it was an advertorial for Evakool.....
Fact….. no person from ADI was even present during the test.
Fact….. they actually run out of digital testers, so the test numbers had to be averaged.

Read the report where the hot box was designed to have a peak of 55 degree for only 2 hours, ramping UP and also DOWN either side to a background ambient temperature of ONLY 15 degrees during a 24 hour period…musta got pretty dam cold in that “hot box” me thinks….. it was a professional test, ROFLMAO, but was specifically designed for the Antarctic region.

Wait a few months and see the various new Fridge tests that will be done by professionals from within the 4x4 industry …
Till then my mouth is sealed, you gotta wonder how I know what happened during that test?
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FollowupID: 349200

Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Victoria) - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 08:12

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 08:12
Since there is some doubt about the validity of the report in the interest of fair play I'll be removing the chart. Makes me wonder why anyone would go to such extremes unless there was pecuniary interests.
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FollowupID: 349208

Follow Up By: Mainey... - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 10:59

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 10:59
Mad Dog (Victoria)

NO...
Why not leave the advertorial there?

Allow the thinking people with a brain to see exactly what people are prepared to do to discredit a competitor.....

I really look forward to NudNuts comments on the test conditions!

It would be colder in the ‘hot box’ than in the fridge!

Woops, was not to be commenting further, but can't find his new thread to read his misinformation and half truths on inverters and rotary compressors.
A decent inverter in its 'run' mode may use 0.8 Amps --> not 15%
The DC load is about 0.05 Amps when then is no load on --> not 15%
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FollowupID: 349219

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 11:38

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 11:38
mainey you wrote
"A decent inverter in its 'run' mode may use 0.8 Amps --> not 15%
The DC load is about 0.05 Amps when then is no load on --> not 15%"

what are these figures supposed to represent////i know what the 15% is its my statement that inverters are 85% efficient meaning 15% are losses....in the form of heat... But what are .8 amps and .05 amps where did these come from ....need more data Mainey so i know what you on about
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FollowupID: 349225

Reply By: porlsprado - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 20:42

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 20:42
Yes he was nicknamed Mad Dog in respect of the original.

The mag is at work which I won't be at until next week. Was definitely pre-03 but probably 01 or 02 so unless they did another test, which is very possible cause it was very influential and i only kept it cause people on this and the overlander forum wanted copies.

But at least we know if the test on the web was dodgy it were not done by reefer!!!.

I feel a little sorry for them cause i was told that Liemack went into liquidation so i suppose the employees, i expect, set up Reefer and i hope they come up with a competitive product cause they are Australian as opposed to waeco and engel.
AnswerID: 90571

Follow Up By: Mainey... - Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 23:34

Tuesday, Dec 28, 2004 at 23:34
porlsprado.......Nope, Reefer has existed in the commercial 12v refrigeration scene for many years, they recently started to manufacturer the Liemack 'style' of fridge with different electrical system and import Danfoss powered Waeco lookalikes with thicker insullation.
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FollowupID: 349202

Reply By: porlsprado - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 11:20

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 11:20
well am still fascinated by all this. Sorry bout the incorrect Reefer comment, that piece of info came from the wonderfully obnoxious oziexplorer who was eventually banned (or left ?) the overlander site, later turning up under various aliases, but who i have supposen to be usually reliable.

So now this is closer to my original Christmas question not even posted here and sorry to digress from the issue at stake though you both seem to heading here so interested in the opinion -

Is it more economical to run my 12v DC fridge off a 240v regulator (calls itself rectifier) or an equivalent 240v AC fridge ? Waeco 36W at 12v, downstairs Fridge 168W at 240v. My confusion is this - although the 30L waeco only uses 36w, the regulator sucks in (is rated anyhow) 0.6 amps at 240v, now using the power - current by voltage method that points to the waeco having a 240V AC power consumption of 144w. The 320L Kelvinator downstairs is rated at 168w at 240v, so you see i am thinking i get an interesting issue about should i run the waeco off the AC power point or got a very similar power consumption by running the downstairs Kelvinator with dedicated freezer for a mere 24w extra.
AnswerID: 90636

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 11:50

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 11:50
porlsprado...to answer this we must assume that both 240v power and 12 vdc is available in unlimited quantities and cost of primary supply is same for each

If has a 12vdc compressor it will be more efficient to run on 12 vdc. if it has a 240v compressor use 240V

anything between compressor and power supply generationg heat is consuming power.

Having said that I use my 12vdc driven fridge compressor on a 240vac supply using 240vac -12vdc stepdown trasformer...this is done as its not requiring power from a limited power supply ...eg the battery ..its make life so much easier doing it this way...240v is also more reliable when available

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FollowupID: 349229

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 11:57

Wednesday, Dec 29, 2004 at 11:57
also
one cannot compare watts input to Watts refrigeration...they are different ...confusing isnt it?

Similarly, watts output of a motor also can not be compared to Watts refrigeration.

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FollowupID: 349232

Reply By: Mainey... - Thursday, Dec 30, 2004 at 08:31

Thursday, Dec 30, 2004 at 08:31
"Nudenut" posted this follow-up
(Quote) "Because the fridge has to be tested WITH the inverter running the actual test RESULT obtained does already INCLUDE any and all loss's from the inverter" (end quote)…..... P R O V E I T!

NudeNut, here is your proof

Where the symbol 'volts' is preceded by a number, that number is the sum total of the number of Volts, the number written is ...twelve

I know that because I can read, and I understand English and what is written.

READ THE FOLLOWING-
Copied from the Reefer website :)

http://www.refrigerationresearch.com.au/portable.htm

#Calculating Power Consumption
Having obtained your cabinets total 24 hour heat load from the table above and selecting the correct co-efficient factor, it is now possible to calculate the amount of battery power to be consumed. (Amp hours at 12 volts, per day) Amp hours consumed per day is the total heat load divided by the relevant co-efficient factor, then divided by 12. (Power supply volts)
For example: a 50 litre cabinet in a 40ºc environment (616 THL), used as a refrigerator with a rotary compressor system (1.82 CEF), powered from a 12 volt battery, would calculate as: 616 divided by 1.82, divided by 12, equals 28.2 Amps per day, or an average consumption of 1.18 Amps per hour.

Nudenut, that does state the power consumption of 1.18a/h is total consumption and therefore does include any and all loss's from the inverter to run the fridge, because the larger CAPACITY rotary Compressor 'pressurises' more refrigerant at any given time than a piston compressor allowing it to run for LESS TIME per hour, therefore giving it a lower Amp/Hour figure per day figure.
Presently the initial start-up amps are about >6 and this is also including any inverter loss!

As I said take off the blindfold and read what is printed..... 12 volts.

This test is done with the fridge running, therefore the inverter is also running, there is absolutely no requirement to delete your extra 15% from the end result as you are (wrongly) claiming, as the fridge test result is gained with the inverter loss included.

The power consumption figure is the sum TOTAL power consumed by the fridge, and does includes the inverter, the fan, thermostat and both the digital battery and also digital temperature readouts guages.

However you won't accept it because you are a qualified “fridgie” and you want to be seen to be right, too bad... this time you’re wrong, just be a man and admit it!
AnswerID: 90721

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 08:45

Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 08:45
You just dont listen do you...
the efficiency factors shown on Refrigeration Researchs' web page are the compressors manufacturers data. One can clearly see form that data that at the two different temps the efficiency of both compressors drop as the temp goes down. This happens as the refrigerant is pressure temp related.....
As you can read, I have taken this info is taken fom the web site..."The following wattage consumption (input), wattage produced (output) and co-efficient factors (co-ef) are derived from each compressor manufacturers specification at maximum compressor speed."
Note it said derived from compressor manufacturers data!!!!!!!
(Now have they also done direct conversion from manufacurers 240v input watts to 12vdc by using standard electrical formulae? if so this would make their calculations even more so damning)

I like to call watts output "watts refrigeration" as then they can not be assumed to be the same.

As they are using a oversized compressor (as can also be seen from the data on their web site as watts refrigeration (output)) the compressor must remove more vapour from the evaporator and this in turn must lower the pressure. This happens as the amount of heat available in the evap cabinet (Product) can be released quick enough to boil the refrigerant to keep the suction pressure at -23 or whatever pressure that correponds to....as its colder the pressure is lower....right? Boyles or charles law...you tell me which one mainey!

some R134A refrigerant figures to contemplate

temp of gas 0 C pressure 191 kpa
-10 c 99
-14 c 69
-18 c 43
-22 c 20
-26 c 0.3kpa
Now that we know its colder and the pressure is lower the density of the vapour returning to the compressor is also less dense....

These facors will reduce the compressor efficiency and the factor must be lower. This also increases the current draw of the compressor as it needs to work harder to compress the gas etc etc etc

Incidently just what are you qualifications
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FollowupID: 349392

Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 18:57

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 18:57
Hi
I thing that what Nudenut is trying to say the figures quoted are for the fridge only? and you have to allow for the loss of amp/hr over the inverter
240vac = fridge + inverter
12vdc = fridge

Maybe

Richard
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FollowupID: 349529

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 19:11

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 19:11
No Richard...
The figures quoted on the web site are for the compressor only and most likely at 240v operation...converted to 12vdc using simple electrical formulae as per the manufacturers 240v rated conditions....a direct conversion of watts input at 240V to watts input at 12vdc by electrical fomulae would not take into account a inverter...
They do say "derived from....?" meaning no actual test measurements were taken?
look further down where I explain the so called cover up
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FollowupID: 349531

Reply By: Mainey... - Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 13:22

Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 13:22
Nudenut,
This is my original reply to Brian..

Brian,
contact Reefer Refrigeration in Adelaide
http://www.refrigerationresearch.com.au/
they manufacture refrigeration equipment for the commercial fishing industry amongst various other things and also large and small portable fridges, all using INVERTERS to run 240v rotary mitsubitshi compressors, similar to your 'normal' home fridge.
Power consumption is not a problem!
Mainey...


"Nudenut you posted this followup (FollowupID: 349043)
Brian...what mainey says is incorrect....SIZE for SIZE: inverter driven fridges using 240v compressors on 12vdc, use considerably more power than a fridge with 12vdc compressor running on 12vdc
Mainey, PUT UP YOUR FIGURES or shut up with this nonsense"

I choose to P U T U P the figures for you, and you could not discredit them:
However you keep changing the subject of the original post only to avoid the test results you yourself have requested and have not been able to discredit in any way at all..

My reply to your request, nudenut.

(Quote) Calculating Power Consumption
Having selecting the correct co-efficient factor, it is now possible to calculate the amount of battery power to be consumed. (Amp hours at 12 volts, per day) Amp hours consumed per day is the total heat load divided by the relevant co-efficient factor, then divided by 12 (Power supply volts)

Example: a 50 litre cabinet in a 40ºc environment (616 THL), used as a refrigerator with a rotary compressor system (1.82 CEF) powered from a 12 volt battery, would calculate as; 616 divided by 1.82, divided by 12, equals 28.2 Amps per day or an average consumption of 1.18 Amps per hour (on a daily basis).

A small system with low rated current draw will ALSO have a low refrigeration OUTPUT, therefore the co-efficient factor and adequate OUTPUT should be the major considerations for BEST ECONOMY and assurance of required performance.(End Quote)

As can be clearly seen we are talking about the power required to run a rotary compressor fridge through an inverter, from a 12 Volt battery, as you have requested of me.
You have made no attempt to discredit these test results simply because they are verifiable and accurate FACTS.
As to your 15% inverter loss and high temp suction etc etc they are all accounted for within the actual printed TEST RESULTS, as you have requested, and therefore are of no relevance.

If you go to buy a Engel or Waeco the advertising blurb gives you a example of what the fridge draws, do you then ask why or how it is achieved? what is the refrigerant pressure? or at what gas temp? no, it is not relevant, you are only interested in Amp/Hours, how long a battery will last!!!

End of squabble!
AnswerID: 90857

Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Victoria) - Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 14:00

Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 14:00
>As to your 15% inverter loss and high temp suction etc etc they are all accounted for within the actual printed TEST RESULTS,

Where are these printed test results. I've searched the reefer site and this whole thread and cannot find any real test results only theory which I'm not interested in.

Mainey, I ask again......where are the test results where the reefer was put in a hot box.

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FollowupID: 349431

Follow Up By: Mainey... - Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 18:53

Friday, Dec 31, 2004 at 18:53
Ray, the printed test results are about 2/3rds way down the page, under the Sub heading "Calculating Power Consumption"

http://www.refrigerationresearch.com.au/basicDescription.htm

Ray, may I suggest (very nicely) If you then don't understand the test you should E-mail Reefer as I feel you don't believe me, their addy is on the website, and ask them any relevant questions, as I have read what I have pasted from their website, it is explicit in it's explanation and the method of attaining the result published.
Remember, I’ve used one of these fridges’s for about six years, and I know their specifications!

Note; My followup post number 349200 used the word “hot box”
it is in reference to the ADI test result and was pasted from the site you linked to.

“Mad Dog (Victoria) posted this followup post number 349172
porlsprado, have a LOOK at this chart for a fridge comparison”

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FollowupID: 349468

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 14:27

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 14:27
Dont be hoodwinked Mainey..... the data shown is not "test" results but rather 'derived" ( a word they use on their web site) figures, using simple electrical formulae, from the compressor Manufacturers published performance data at the listed evaporator refrigerant temps.....this is not "testing".... it is extrapalating the data and making assumptions on performance........

It is called ...pulling the wool over YOUR eyes....

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FollowupID: 349507

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 21:26

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 21:26
Howdy Ray
If you look carefully at the data on their web site.....it says" derived from manufacturers literature" ... words to that effect....

as you say....it has not been the result of actual testing....... of their oversized compressor fridge.......ha ha ha ha

And I will ring Refrigeration Research to see what other info they offer to support their wild claims when I get the manufacturers data for the said compressors....at least I will have it (the data of the comp) in front of me when they begin evading the questions and raising issues pertaining to the compressor only......no other manufacturer does this.....others tell the whole story based on the fridges total cooling capacity...not the capacity of a compressor that in this case is more than twice the size it needs to be
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FollowupID: 349551

Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Victoria) - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 22:22

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 22:22
I can't find any real test on the web and obviously Mainey can't direct me to one. The manufacturer doesn't supply any figure for their fridges. All I can come up with is a few owners who state they are power hungry
and Mainey who states the opposite. Choice mag did a portable fridge test Dec 2003 and I have it in front of me but once again the reefer wasn't included.
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FollowupID: 349564

Reply By: TheUndertaker - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 00:46

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 00:46
This has gone on long enough, who realy gives a sh-t, I now have an engle, a waeco, and a chescold 3way ,,, have tested all ofthem in a controlled enviroment and in the bush/beach,and each is as good as the day/s asked of them ,, only thing that matters is 'IS THE BEER COLD'?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
AnswerID: 90904

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 16:37

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 16:37
true..the beer must be cold ............but cant let a feral suck us in with fabricated data!!!

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FollowupID: 349512

Reply By: Nudenut - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 16:10

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 16:10
Quote from reefer site
“The only method of correctly evaluating and comparing fridge power consumption and efficiency is to calculate each unit's co-efficient factor.
This is the only industry recognized method of evaluating refrigeration compressor consumption and efficiency, used and quoted by all manufacturers worldwide.” End quote

They are cleverly disguising what they mean….it looks like they mean the fridge eh?

The ONLY method of correctly evaluating and comparing a deep freeze, a domestic fridge, a 12 v portable or a 5000 horse power driven multistage centrifugal chiller for Efficiency is to measure the amount of heat absorbed (cooling capacity) versus the amount of power used.

What they have said is to evaluate the compressor… I refer you to the second sentence of the above quote…..and I agree.. but it is not the fridge……..

A compressor on it own cannot cool so it does matter what the compressor co-efficient is….of course a more efficient compressor should mean a less energy hungry fridge….but it doesn’t stop there. The compressor must be selected for the duty (its cooling capacity) it is expected to achieve…this can be at varied temps; and its refrigeration capacity, and hence its volumetric efficiency taking with its “efficiency factor”, will vary accordingly.

Lets take another look at the data on their site and how it is used to pull the wool over Maineyeyes…
Quote
“For example:

System A delivers 150 watts / hour of refrigeration energy while consuming 100 watts / hour of electrical energy and therefore has a co-efficient factor of 1.5.
System B delivers 90 watts / hour of refrigeration energy while consuming 80 watts / hour of electrical energy. (co-efficient factor of 1.125)
It can be seen that although system B uses power at a much lower rate while running than system A, system A is far more efficient using less power overall.

Why is this so!

Firstly, it takes exactly the same amount of refrigeration energy to refrigerate a given amount of produce regardless of which refrigerator is used. (Ed. True)

Put a slab of warm beer in Mums trusty old Kelvinator, another slab in the butchers coolroom, another in the portable fridge with system A and the fourth slab in the portable fridge with system B..

Each of the above will need to extract exactly the same amount of refrigeration energy (measured in watts) to cool the slab to the required temperature. (Ed. True)

So lets assume that these slabs each require 450 watts of refrigeration applied to cool to the desired temperature.

The portable fridge with system A achieves the result in three hours running, (450 divided by 150) consuming 300 watts of electrical energy. (or 300w divided by 12v equals 25 amps at 12 volts)

The portable fridge with system B achieves the result in five hours running, (450 divided by 90) consuming 400 watts of electrical energy. (or 400w divided by 12v equals 33.3 amps at 12 volts.)

END QUOTE

Now lets assume that both compressors are made by the same company and as one would expect have the same or similar co-efficient factor…eg 1.5.

Note: This is not a true test of your “fridge capacity”…its only related to the compressor…at the manufacturers specified suction and discharge conditions.

So we now have system B with a 90watt refrigeration capacity compressor with an efficiency of 1.5. 90 divided by 1.5 = 50 watts….mmm? System A remains the same as above.
Therefore, as it can still only achieve 90watts refrigeration the running time is still 5 hours.(but does this shorten as the compressor is now more efficient) consuming only 250 watts of power or 20.8amps… the smaller comp does in fact consume less current…it justs takes a little longer to get there but at far less energy input.

Sorry, my slab is no longer existent as I drank it all last night…..hic!

You will also note that the compressor co-efficient factors ie 1.5 V 1.125 shown on the web site for the two compressors differ wildly as compared to the chart at the bottom of that page ie… the BD35 which has half the output (watts refrigeration) capacity of the Mitsi RR120. Doing this makes their point stand out….but it’s a fox in sheeps clothing!

AnswerID: 90938

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 11:48

Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 11:48
ooops stuffed that up
dont know what i did wrong in the calcs...
90 divided by 1.5 = 60 watts giving us the same enegy input as the system A....
my apologies for misleading
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FollowupID: 349593

Reply By: Member - Brett H (QLD) - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 19:37

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 19:37
This is the coolest thread for yonks.....................
AnswerID: 90954

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 21:32

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 21:32
and what do you want to know Brett........ or have you just dropped in to stir the pot? lol lol lol

Coolest thread????
its actually about the transfer of heat from one area.... the product inside the fridge eg cans of coldies to the outside making the whole lot more palatable on a hot day....whats so cool about this???? hahahaha

ps.No offence meant Brett
regards
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FollowupID: 349552

Follow Up By: Member - Brett H (QLD) - Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 00:08

Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 00:08
Mr Nut,
I have had the chiller going all day blowing cool air through the house to keep it a t a modest 24 degrees.

Mate I used to have similar discussions when I was involved in the diesel generator industry. I have . on many occasions , had a grin from ear to ear when my advice to an electrician or engineer was ignored, and ignored and ignored . Subsequently the penny would drop, almost always after installation, and changes would need to be made and a lot of money wasted.

I remember an instance about 15 years ago where against my advice a BHP electrical engineer ordered a 500kva generator. 8 weeks after delivery another engineer called to say they only needed a 70 kva generator as they were only running a 25 hp motor. I told him I knew and told so and so. There was a lot of explaining to do due to the fact that there was $95000.00 difference in the cost.

Anyway back to the fridge issue. I don't really understand the ducks guts of what you are talking about bit I do know that is is difficult to recover any electrical losses. I personally think too many people place to much emphasis on "the which fridge is better and my fridge draws less than yours" discussion.

My layman information seeking exercise led me to conclude that the duty cycle of the fridge is governed by the insulation type and thickness etc and the ambient temperature. For me to carry in the back of my Troopy what I wanted to I could not consider thse units with largeareas taken up by insulation for a fridge. I chose a Waeco FF 40. The size was good the cost was good , the engle was $300 more at the time.
I fitted a seconf=d battery to the car and modified the Danfoss controller to allow the fridge to run as low as 9. something volts.

The unit can run as a freezer in the back of the car in the top end during summer for about 4 days. I don't care if the $180.00 battery needs to be replaced a few months early all I want is my food cold.

Thanks again , the thread is informative, entertaining, and has absorbed some of my time.

Cheers

Brett

Not proof read..Ive had too may rums to be able to know if Ive spelt anything wong.
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FollowupID: 349571

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 11:15

Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 11:15
Less energy consumption allows for easier and more efficient enegy management?...thats how we got into this topic....which was worst v which is good etc etc..

Its just not the insulation qualities that make one more efficient than another...as said above.....

I change my deep cycle every 2 yrs......
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FollowupID: 349585

Reply By: porlsprado - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 22:49

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 22:49
Definitley thread of the year but my last question is probably for Mike as i don't wanna detract Nudie and Mainey from the battles.

My waeco uses 36w at 12v if i apply the amp rating of the compressor with the power = volts by amps method. But when i plug the end into the mobitronics rectifier/regulator/transformer which converts 240v AC to 12v DC the unit is rated at 0.6amps on 240v, but using the same power - etc method this means i must be sucking out 144w at 240v AC to convert to a measly 36watts at 12v DC - is this right ?
AnswerID: 90975

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 23:01

Saturday, Jan 01, 2005 at 23:01
porls, the 0.6amps at 240v rating is the maximum rating of the power supply unit, it wouldnt run at that. Starting currents of motors can be up to 6 times the running currents so the supply needs to be able to cope with that. 3 amps at 12 v = 36w, 36w at 240v =bugger all amps. Mind you the transformer has losses within it also as has the rectifier, so overall, the current draw would be a poofteenth more than bugger all.

Hope that explains it.
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FollowupID: 349569

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 11:20

Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 11:20
porls...your fridge on 240v wouldnt even suck power as hard or at the same rate as some of the EO members suck on their coldies
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FollowupID: 349586

Follow Up By: TheUndertaker - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 00:04

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 00:04
The mobitronics unit for a waeco fridge = 240volts in yet 24volts out NOT 12volts, redo all sums,,,,if you please,
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FollowupID: 349626

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 08:41

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 08:41
Sorry T.U. I wasnt aware, the math turns out decidedly different for a 24v system due to the predominance of 24v systems being used in trucks and mostly these are long haul units.

It works out like this:

36w @ 24v =1.5 amps, 36w @ 240v = a smidge over bugger all amps due to the higher voltage fluctuation percentage at 24v. Also given that predominance mentioned above when running at 24v your fridge is likely to be in Townsville, when you are in Perth, BUT "We'll have it there today Mate!"

QED Bonz
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FollowupID: 349635

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:29

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:29
Waeco use Both 12 & 24vdc
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FollowupID: 349650

Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:32

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:32
theres heaps of reduced current options, but all are the realm of the LARGE motor, star-delta, reduced voltage are two of, but they cost big dollars, hardly an option for an oversised compressor motor in a car fridge.
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FollowupID: 349653

Follow Up By: TheUndertaker - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:35

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:35
Yes Nudenut ,waeco runs on 12 and 24vdc ,the mobitronics "box" is 24vdc not 12vdc as most people think.
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FollowupID: 349655

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 11:26

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 11:26
? do they have one box or two..
one for 240 -12 and another for 240 - 24?

if only one box how do they get the 12v to run off the 240-24 box?
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FollowupID: 349662

Follow Up By: TheUndertaker - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 11:38

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 11:38
Nudenut , from the info on the box that my mobitronics unit came in ,,,multi voltage rectifier ,110v-240v
input voltage range110 to 250vac
output voltage 27vdc
battery voltage 12v to 24v
output current 6A
mine is the mps 50,,, runs the waeco 80 with the bd50f compressor.
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FollowupID: 349665

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 12:04

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 12:04
sounds like its selected input and output....makes sense...only have to manufacture one that does all...just add a couple of extra switches???
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FollowupID: 349666

Follow Up By: porlsprado - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 15:23

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 15:23
Just letting you know that although i am sure mobitronics puts out lots of different units, the one I have is actually 240V AC to 12v DC (5A 60W), 1. it says this and 2. i just tested it with my digital multimeter - 13.89v output at no load. The fridge is a very early model 30L (ono) unit with no turbo function and cr#p insulation but has never skipped a beat, i guess they just gave me the one that best suited my fridge.
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FollowupID: 349681

Reply By: porlsprado - Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 23:38

Sunday, Jan 02, 2005 at 23:38
Just happened to notice we all seem, me from my first post, lost track of the original question - is there any consensus that he should buy the CK-40 and run it off an inverter given the cost benefit ?
AnswerID: 91044

Follow Up By: TheUndertaker - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 00:13

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 00:13
Simple answer is ?????? no. No actual benefit/ cost verse cooling performance/verse straight simlpicity/ IS THE BEER COLD/ only thing that matters in the short /long term is /IS THE BEER COLD.
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FollowupID: 349628

Follow Up By: Nudenut - Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:33

Monday, Jan 03, 2005 at 10:33
PorlsPrado....there would be NO benefit at all....inverter driven will just use your limited power supply ....battery ...quicker
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FollowupID: 349654

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