LPGas for cookingLPGas for cars = difference

Submitted: Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 15:34
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LP Gas for cooking and LP gas for cars = difference?

The micro jets of my gas cooking stove were clogging up from time to time.
At the beginning I thought it was dust or sand in the jets.
After 12 months of care, it was evident it was something else clogging the jets.
When my 4.5 kg gas bottle was getting empty, the jets were clogging up quickly and had to be replaced.

I’ve found the explanation.
Some bottles of gas are sometimes refilled by LPG gas for car. (In the bush or even in town by unscrupulous operators)
I thought LPG for cooking and LPG for cars were the same.
There are NOT the same.

The LPG for cooking contains only LPG and the one for cars contain BUTANE gas, which is oil. The purpose of this oil is to lubricate the top of the car’s cylinders.

The butane is heavier than LPG and sits at the bottom of the gas cylinder.
When gas cylinder is nearly empty, the BUTANE gas is released and because it is oil it starts to burn in the jets.
The hole in the jet becomes more and more restricted until there is hardly any gas going through it.

It is illegal to turn upside down the gas cylinder and release the gas in the air.

Use an expensive gas filter or change the gas cylinder. (Someone else will have the problem)

LPG gas for cooking should not be used in cars, as they do not contain any Butane or lubricating gas for the piston heads.

Guy
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Reply By: Nudenut - Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 16:53

Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 16:53
this contradicts some others thoughts

I had problems when lpg condensed in the piping over night . Liquid is a good scourer which flushes dirt from the pipes into the jets. I now use cotton wool

Some else sometime back said it was eddy currents over the face of the jet...which i queried, but now believe this could also happen....
AnswerID: 101953

Reply By: Patrolman Pat - Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 17:04

Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 17:04
As you say donmestic LPG is propane, auto is a mix of propane and butane plus a few other goodies. Butane has a higher heat content, diferent density etc and requires smaller injectors generally. The oil is not the butane but is added as an extra to the auto gas. I use those small butane canisters a lot and they are excellent with the correct appliance due to the extra calorific value IMO.

I don't know about being illegal to tip a gas bottle upside down to release gas but it's certainly dangerous.
AnswerID: 101958

Follow Up By: Guy - Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 14:43

Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 14:43
Hello Patrolman

>>auto is a mix of propane and butane plus a few other goodies.

I was very general in my description of the the concoction of chemicals inside the LPG auto.

Guy
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FollowupID: 359878

Reply By: TheUndertaker - Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 17:31

Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 17:31
I think I would be more worried about the fact that I would be getting ripped off if my gas bottle was being filled with auto LPG , bowser price = 45/60 cents per lt , LPG into gas bottle = 4.5lt bottle $15/18.oo = major rippoff !!!!!!!!!
AnswerID: 101960

Reply By: muzzimbidgie - Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 18:18

Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 18:18
I have responded to other posts on this subject, and have ended up with abusive emails from people who recon I'm an idiot. Whether or not I'm an idiot doesn't diminish the fact that a mate of mine is a registered LPG installer and he recons it is the same gas. He has worked at a service station for many years, and the truck that fills the tank with LPG for cars also fills the tank for gas bottles. The driver uses the same hose, and does not switch between different compartments in the tanker.

So, yes, send me information stating legal clap trap if you like, refer me to websites of related topics and call me an idiot if you like, but I still believe they are the same.

As for lubrication. If LPG does contain substsances for lubrication, then why did I have to have special valves put in the head of my landcruiser to deal with the lack of lubrication when running on gas? Many, many people have had to do this modification to avoid burning valves when running on gas, particularly on older vehicles that were designed to run on super.

Why are people advised to also use flashlube valve saver or similar products. It's because LPG burns dry and hot and contains no lubrication.

Bring it on !!!

AnswerID: 101967

Follow Up By: TroopyTracker - Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 19:40

Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 19:40
G'day,

I've spent the last 3 years on the road and I can promise you that in remote country towns at least, the gas at the bowser is the EXACT SAME GAS as you buy when you get your bottle filled. I've seen the gas truck refilling the both tanks, from the same truck and the same hose. Yes it is a ripoff. 9kg bottle refill out back $28 or more=over $3 a litre!! I've considered getting a forklift bottle for my van but when I spoke to a gas fitter about this he showed me some rules and regs that would make it against the law. Maybe the people making the money off the gas are the same people who make these rules? I did see a motorhome though with a forklift type bottle fitted to the back of it. Good on him, although he could have mounted it in a little better location.

I'm not saying there is only one type of gas, I'm sure there's supposed to be a difference, but I promise alot of the time you will be buying regular auto gas when you get your bottle filled. I know some one whos been travelling for more than 10 years and has been naughtily filling his caravan bottles from his car (which is on gas). totally illegal and he told me he could get massive fines for doing this but he refuse's to pay the $3 price they charge at the servo's. Wouldn't recommend doing this- this bloke was a mechanic who knew about gas conversions, did his himself. All his appliances have been running on the auto gas for years and are totally fine.

Just my two cent's worth

Cheers
Matt
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FollowupID: 359799

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 13:50

Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 13:50
I too have seen people filling 9kg bottle on campers with adaptors from the LPG bowser, looking very sheepishly around to make sure no one is looking... Weather it's the same or not, it obviously works...
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FollowupID: 359870

Follow Up By: Guy - Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 14:48

Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 14:48
http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/lpg/

Guy
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FollowupID: 359880

Reply By: theshadows - Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 19:33

Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 19:33
Guy you are very wrong.

nothing more or less your just "wrong".....

quote

>"LP Gas for cooking and LP gas for cars = difference? "

yes thats true.

>The micro jets of my gas cooking stove were clogging up from time to time.
>At the beginning I thought it was dust or sand in the jets.
>After 12 months of care, it was evident it was something else clogging the jets.
>When my 4.5 kg gas bottle was getting empty, the jets were clogging up quickly
>and had to be replaced.

its dust and ice particles from when you turn the jets off and the flame goes out.
the dust is attracted the the ice from the inside of the jet use a jet clean neddle to clean.

>I’ve found the explanation.
>Some bottles of gas are sometimes refilled by LPG gas for car. (In the bush or
>even in town by unscrupulous operators)
>I thought LPG for cooking and LPG for cars were the same.
>There are NOT the same.

this is true.

>The butane is heavier than LPG and sits at the bottom of the gas cylinder.
>When gas cylinder is nearly empty, the BUTANE gas is released and because it is
>oil it starts to burn in the jets.
>The hole in the jet becomes more and more restricted until there is hardly any
>gas going through it.

the whole of this statement is totally false.... butane mixes eventy with propane .the chemical traces for saftey smell mix evenly as well.butane ase is an gase with no traces of an solid. its only an liquid because its stored under pressure.
As for jet becoming restricted see about dust particales and condisation.

>It is illegal to turn upside down the gas cylinder and release the gas in the air

what contry you in???? where did you make that up?

when you turn the bottle upside down the liquid converts back into a gas via loss of presure.thats allyou can have an pick up for an gas vessal any where you want, its normally where you can ACCESS IT.

>Use an expensive gas filter or change the gas cylinder. (Someone else will have
>the problem)

a media filter for butane is a very large and bulky filter. you would be better to have an water trap instead.....BTW where are you going to get an "FILTER" for domestic use???

>LPG gas for cooking should not be used in cars, as they do not contain any Butane >or lubricating gas for the piston heads.

this is not true again ......

and lpg does not have any "lubricating gases" in it at all.....

lets get this right first up

lpg is a mixture of propane and butane with trace aromatics to give it an smell thats all.

bar-a-que gaes is propane with trace aromatics to give it and smell.... thats all

in europe you can buy with propane and butane gaese serperate. and you need different jets to run you settings.

if you want to know why lpg gaes is not fir for human cooking try googleing lpg - medical and cancer at the same time.

shadow
AnswerID: 101982

Follow Up By: Guy - Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 14:50

Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 14:50
Google search

It took me 20 seconds to find this first result.

http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/lpg/

I leave the rest to you.

Guy
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FollowupID: 359881

Reply By: peter d - Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 19:49

Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 19:49
hi everyone, just throw my 2 cents in, my brother inlaw delivers gas down south sydney way and tells me it all comes out of the same tank , and over in nz they fill your gas bottles at the servo out of the same pump that you fill your car with. i think everyone has there own idea about it but i am going with my inlaw as he delivers it to both servos and camping outlets an it all comes from one big tank. ok it was 3 cents worth. peter
AnswerID: 101986

Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Australia) - Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 20:03

Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 20:03
I've heard so many comments like this over the years that I'm convinced
we are being told a load of dung about it being different.
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FollowupID: 359803

Follow Up By: TheUndertaker - Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 20:23

Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 20:23
Therfore we are all getting ripped off to the tune of $2+ PER LT, tits time to change to a dual fuel stove.
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FollowupID: 359806

Follow Up By: Guy - Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 14:51

Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 14:51
An other google search about LPG
http://www.aip.com.au/industry/fact_liquid_gas.htm

Guy
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FollowupID: 359882

Reply By: Patrolman Pat - Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 20:45

Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 20:45
http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/lpg/

Why are there different mixes of propane and butane in LPG (autogas)?
Autogas consists of propane or propane and butane. Residential LPG (used for domestic cooking and heating) consists of propane only.

Fluctuations in the relative levels of propane and butane in autogas is not an unusual phenomenon; it is evident in autogas mixes used in other parts of the world, such as Europe. In fact, in Europe the levels of butane and propane fluctuate more than in Australia.

Maintaining different mixes of propane and butane is important for the continuation of the autogas market. The fluctuation provides for the flexibility necessary for the distribution of autogas to metropolitan and regional centres.

[B]Certain regional and rural areas are provided with autogas that consists of only propane so that both the domestic and automotive needs can be met with the one tanker load.[/B]

.
AnswerID: 101991

Follow Up By: TheUndertaker - Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 21:17

Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 21:17
So all comes out of the same tanker on delivery ??!!! = MAJOR RIPPOFF to the gas bottle user.
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FollowupID: 359808

Follow Up By: firestang - Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 22:30

Thursday, Mar 10, 2005 at 22:30
Oh dear not this again .
Go to the regulators web site it tells you the difference there.
Don't know the address sorry.
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FollowupID: 359815

Follow Up By: Guy - Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 14:55

Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 14:55
Patrolman
This is where the mixing of the pure LPG and the LPG auto takes place.
In the tankers.

Thanks for the info.
Last time I changed the jets of my LPG stove it took me 1 hour and cost me $2 but cost me $20 dolars in fuel to find the jets.

Guy
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FollowupID: 359883

Reply By: pjchris - Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 10:20

Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 10:20
Near as I can tell car LPG and BBQ LPG are legally required to be different.

I owned a server for some years and know this.

However I also know that the practice of filling the BBQ gas refilling bottle from the car LPG tanker is rampant within the industry.

The issues with BBQ's etc are generally so minor that virtually no-one ever notices, nor do they think to test the gas in the bottle...Would you?

The largest issue here from a consumer point of view is one of rampant profiteering as the car LPG costs the service station MUCH less than the gas he should be putting in the BBQ refill bottle. Other health concerns exist but I suspect that unless we used this stuff everyday the risk would be slight. As my mother does as she lives somewhat remotely and has bottled LPG for cooking/water heating etc. The saving grace for people like this is that the bottles are exchanged directly with a (hopefully) reputable gas supplier who uses the correct gas.

Peter
AnswerID: 102055

Follow Up By: Guy - Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 15:01

Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 15:01
Hello Pjchris
Yes this is profetering. +++

But this is about cooking.
Two years ago I was at Chilli beach and one the jet clogged up.
I tried a needle and vinegar and battery acid.
Nothing cleaned that tar.
I could not use one burner for the rest of the trip.

I wish I had a Butane burner!!

It did not save me gas , but it took twice as long for the "boss" to prepare the dinner.
The "boss" was not thrilled about it for the rest of the three weeks.

Guy
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FollowupID: 359885

Follow Up By: pjchris - Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 16:34

Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 16:34
I can imagine. And you may have been a victim of auto LPG or just a bad batch of regular BBQ LPG.

How can we prove it when we're in the middle of nowhere miles from where we filled up. The service station owners don't care, they've made their money several times over and it's not their stove....

They shouldn't do it....but...how do we tell whether we're getting the right product? At least with petrol it's coloured by grade now.

It's very frustrating.

Peter
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FollowupID: 359894

Reply By: reelmick1 - Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 20:20

Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 20:20
If anybody is interested, LPG installers will sell you the adapter to fill your bottles from your vehicle filling point. Cheers Mick
AnswerID: 102101

Follow Up By: Guy - Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 22:36

Friday, Mar 11, 2005 at 22:36
That's good.
But what do you mean exactly?

You're talking about a fitting to fill bottles for cooking LPG gas .

But what about the filter to remove the "muck" which is there to lubricate the head of the enginew cylinders?

Have these installers got a pratical way to make a makebleepfilter out of something?
The fitti8ng is not the problem, but the filter is the difficult part to get.

I was told by 3 installers not to bother with most of the filters.

So, what the real story?

Guy
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FollowupID: 359917

Reply By: rb30s - Sunday, Mar 13, 2005 at 21:45

Sunday, Mar 13, 2005 at 21:45
Guy or anyone interested,
Here is a link to a hose to use a 9kg cylinder as a jerry can or to decant lpg into a 9kg cylinder from the car... copy and paste

http://cust.idl.com.au/athol/carbits.html

Adrian
AnswerID: 102288

Follow Up By: pjchris - Sunday, Mar 13, 2005 at 23:17

Sunday, Mar 13, 2005 at 23:17
Since the filler inside the car's LPG cylinder does not sit on the bottom of the tank I think that this method would not actually allow transfer from the car to the LPG cylinder.

Of course if the filler tube in the car tank is immersed in the liquid at the bottom of the tank then you could fill your bbq bottle exactly the same way as servos do.

I have taken the training for gas bottle filling, and honestly the consequences of an accident when filling BBQ bottles scare me silly. We practiced putting out LPG cylinder fires with a garden hose and a pair of gloves! Powder fire extinguishers are completely useless on LPG fires.

It is not actually very hard to fill BBQ bottles but carelessness and complacency along with static electricity make it very dangerous.

Peter
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FollowupID: 360048

Follow Up By: rb30s - Monday, Mar 14, 2005 at 06:55

Monday, Mar 14, 2005 at 06:55
Hi pjchris,

I agree, what you say would be right. I wasn't thinkin' straight. The hose would probably only be of use to allow an lpg cylinder to be used as a reserve tank for the car (I havent got one, but I have thought it would be very handy in the outback for emergencies only). And yes I can well imagine the dangers associated with lpg fires and other hazards.

Adrian
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FollowupID: 360061

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