Police Drivers

Submitted: Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 15:30
ThreadID: 21856 Views:2694 Replies:13 FollowUps:24
This Thread has been Archived
I saw this today at lunch and feel the need to share it.

In Sydney CBD about 1.40 today standing at the corner of Elizabeth and Bathurst (on Hide Park). Basically its a T intersection. Traffic moving along the main road (Eliz St) with green lights as normal. Police car with flashing lights, sirens and horn blaring coming up Bathurst, approiaching the intersection very fast, slows down to at intersection but fails to stop until half way out through intersection. This forces a white car (travelling down Elizabeth) to swerve in order to avoid hitting the police car. The white car then crashes into a black car while trying to avoid the police car. The driver of the cop car sees all this, hesitates for a moment ( 2 seconds max.) and the bleep es off up Elizabeth street.

Unbelievable. The cop causes the accident and then leaves the scene. Anyway, the two other cars pull over and start having a chat. I head off on my way shaking my head but then realise that I saw the whole thing and that the driver of the white car could probably do with my eye witness account to back up his version of the incident. I head back and give him my details and leave him scratching his head wondering what to do and how to find the driver of the cop car. The driver of the black car was being very understanding.

Interesting lunchtime to say the least....
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Reply By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 15:40

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 15:40
Should ring him to find out what happened when he reports the accident to the police -
a) will they accept responsibility?;
b) will they book him for wreckless driving?; or
c) will they know nothing?

Bet you it is "c".

Kind regards
AnswerID: 105570

Follow Up By: Alan S (NSW) - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 15:44

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 15:44
I didn't get his detials but if he contacts me I'll be interested to know how it all pans out.

Bet it "C" too
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Reply By: flappa - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 16:11

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 16:11
Geez , eh , maybe the fact he had the sirens going, lights flashing , and horns blowing , meant he was on his way to an emergency
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Follow Up By: James M - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 16:27

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 16:27
Or on his way to pick up smoko
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Follow Up By: flappa - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 16:32

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 16:32
Dunkin Donuts ; )
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Follow Up By: Darylive - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:42

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:42
Probably hey,

But maybe the se people didn't realise that and thought the minor accident more important ?

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Reply By: Member - DickyBeach - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 16:51

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 16:51
Leaving the scene of an accident ???????
AnswerID: 105580

Reply By: Member - iMusty (VIC) - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:11

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:11
You may find that seeing as the police car was not involved with the actual impact, it was not in the collision.

You have to be "in" the collision to warrant a stop don't you?

If I swere to avoid "something" and dont hit that "something", then that "something" is not in the collision.

Bad luck to White car I'd say.
AnswerID: 105584

Follow Up By: Member - RockyOne - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:18

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:18
Hey iMusty,If that's the case,what do we do if we hear a police siren..Quickly park our rig on the footpath?..Like,they have comms.Could have radioed another cop car to attend,but then,I suppose they would blame the civvies for dangerous driving..
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Follow Up By: BenSpoon - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:24

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:24
Thats the way the law and insurance companies see it.
Someone can run out infront of you, causing you to swerve and hit a 3rd party, and you foot all the costs. Hard to understand, but in the eyes of the law and insurance you're best of to merrily sail into whoever would make you otherwise swerve.

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Follow Up By: Member - iMusty (VIC) - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:30

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:30
It IS NOT a perfect world.

Not every single thing a copper does on the road is stupid.

I agree that with the lmited knowledge I have read here it's hard to give them the benifit. I hate the abuse of power. And they are in lots of ways just plain untollerable

But we have to look at the whole picture.

I don't know where he/she was headin.

But if the choice between prangin my car and me coppin the $3,000 bill or some old slapper being mugged and hurt and fearfull for her life.

Then I'll pay it off over the next few years.

Grudgingly.

But I'll cop it.


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Reply By: flappa - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:24

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:24
Hang on , there's a few assumptions being made here.

The Police car had its lights and sirens going , and honking horn . . , its doing the right thing.

AFAIK , Cop cars under these conditions have right of way FULL STOP.

Lights, sirens , and horns arent exactly quite , maybe the white car simply wasn't paying attention, talking on the phone , and had their stereo to loud ?

The cop car hit NOTHING , the white car did ?

Unless you know what job the cop car was on , its UNFAIR TO SAY HE SHOULD HAVE STOPPED OR NOT.

If he was on a life or death job , what would you have prefered him to do ?

At the end of the day , the white car is in the wrong.
AnswerID: 105586

Follow Up By: Toy_Hilux - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:54

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:54
On my understanding though and after talking to a friend who is in the force, the cop does not have the right of way, the other cars should try to make room for any emergency vehicle but the cop has to watch to make sure that it is safe to go through and that he doesn't in fact cause an accident. That goes for any emergency vehicle.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Friday, Apr 08, 2005 at 14:37

Friday, Apr 08, 2005 at 14:37
I've also got to stick up for the white car, I do a hell of a lot of city driving for work and have often seen an emergency vehicle whistle through an instersection I was travelling towards and I never even saw them comming, lights sirens or not if you are dirvng one direction and their vehicle is comming from another you will find that you can't here them until you are almost on top of them, their sirens are very directional at point mainly towards the front. Now if it's a 70 or 80kmh/r zone and you are happily doing the speed limit towards and intersection and you here/see an emergency vehicle at the last second, you're not going to be able to pull up in time, you would swerve and you probally would hit somthing.

my 2c.
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Reply By: Ants - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:25

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:25
At the risk of offending...

If the police officer was responding to a violent crime, a duress alarm, etc etc, what you you prefer if it were you waiting for the police to get there?

There's always more than one side to a story...

I spent 10 years in "the blue" and the saying "It's not what you see, it's what we do" is very true.

Sure, it could be said that he left the scene of the accident (maybe, maybe not, I wasn't there so won't offer an opinion), but the other side of the coin is this - why was he in so much of a hurry that he decided not to stop?

Don't get me wrong - I'm not defending what happened - I'm just opening another avenue the discussion may want to consider.

I know if it was my life or one of my loved ones on the line, and something terrible happened, and I found out the responding officer had to stop to attend a minor vehicle accident that occurred on the way...I wouldn't be waying many kind things.
AnswerID: 105587

Follow Up By: Member - Brett H (QLD) - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 19:08

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 19:08
I may now be wrong however I do remember a RTA training official (responsible for training RTA staff on the Motor Traffic Act) telling me that there is no provision in the act for any exemption to its rules. Police, Ambulance and Fire brigade are bound by all of the laws contained. This law was not normally enforced unless an accident investigation took place. If the Police officer went through the red light and caused an accident he did contribute to the accident.

It is te duty of the officer to ensure it is safe to proceed...the ame rules for all of us...

It was 20 years since this information was given to me and it may have been ammended since.
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Follow Up By: Bob of KAOS - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 20:57

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 20:57
What if a fatality had resulted? Would police responding to an emergency situation still justify that. There is a clear onus on emergency vehicles to drive safely, even if they have lights etc going.
The possibility is that the 'emergency' involved less damage and less risk than caused by the police speeding to the scene.
Similarly, an ambulance speeding some old fart to hospital with a heart attack, hitting a kid on a crossing and killing it, would be counterproductive.
Having worked the ambulances I know the adrenalin can get pumping, and it is conceivable that logic flies out the window once the sound of the sirens intoxicates the young copper.
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Follow Up By: Kev - Friday, Apr 08, 2005 at 08:27

Friday, Apr 08, 2005 at 08:27
Hi Brett (Qld)
In Queensland Police are exempt from the TORUM regulations when driving 'in the execution to their duty'. When driving in emergency situations, lights/sirens, they are exempt from prosecution. That doesn't mean exempt from blame. Emergency driving only given the right of priority driving. Must stop at red lights and then porceed and other traffic must give way.
In a situationlike this in Qld. The service would take the heat and investigate the actions of the driver. It found wanting the driver would be charged departmentally but not necessarily under legissslation.
Kev
P.S. I suppose that all were lucky that this didn't hap[pen in Victoria, someone could have been shot.
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Reply By: D-Jack - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:56

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 17:56
I know quite a few police officers, and it's amazing the things people will do when they hear and see Police or any other emergency vehicle at that. I 've heard stories about cars just slamming their brakes on (resulting in permanent back injuries to the coppers), speeding up, going on the wrong side of the road to danger.

I think it's quite simple. A lot of people panic, whereas the best thing to do is to get out of the right side of the road and allow them to pass. If it's on the LH lane then pullover when you can to the left, or if there's no room then into the lane with the most traffic. In the case of an intersection, if you see one, use the rules of any traffic lights. If you can stop safely, do so without allowing the car behind you to run up your bot bot (it's another matter why they should leave plenty of room), if you can't stop go though. Sure coppers will occasionally make mistakes too, just like all of us.

Do the right thing and you may even get a friendly wave or finger (or the birdie if you don't) like I have on a couple of occasions.

This is not to say that the white car couldn't have avoided an accident, only he will ever know that.

Just my 3 cents worth
AnswerID: 105594

Reply By: Alan S (NSW) - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 18:34

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 18:34
I think I just need to add here that I am not judging what I saw just that it was hard to take it all in.

The police car was obviously in a hurry, no doubt about that, a real hurry by the way they were driving.

This happneded in the CBD in amongst high buildings and I have no doudt that the driver of the white car or the other car could not have seen the lights or heard the sirens until they say the police car stopping right in front of them blocking a lane, risking being t-boned by the white car but then the white car swirved and managed to hit the other cat instead. I only looked around to see the police car a few seconds before the incident as I was a pedestrian stardning at the junction...

Anyway, life goes on
AnswerID: 105602

Follow Up By: Savvas - Friday, Apr 08, 2005 at 08:52

Friday, Apr 08, 2005 at 08:52
I've worked in the Sydney CBD for years. You do hear the sirens very easily when you are driving, as the pitch of the sirens rebounds off the buildings.

The problem in Sydney is that the sirens are just going off so often, particularly fire brigades, that if you hear them often enough you get desensitized to them.
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Reply By: theanimal - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 18:50

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 18:50
i am sure that that intersection is fitted with traffic monitoring cameras, there shjould be little difficulty in determining exactly what occurred.
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Reply By: Glenno - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 21:09

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 21:09
Back when you could listen in to the Cops on the UHF (in Brissy) all of what is happening when under lights is logged by the copper and recorded on tape by the radio room.

I can remember sitting on the side of the road listening to a copper flogging the life out of a dunnydoor calling in the red lights he was running plus any illegal moves ie wrong way up a one way alley. Was an adrenhalin ruch for me hearing the sirens blaring, engine revving and this copper hooking around the suburbs. Now I know why my mate says driving an Ambo under lights is such a rush.

I believe the copper logs any incidents along the way for the very same reason this whole thread started. Im not going to commenton the who is in the right or wrong, but you can guarantee if it had happened in Qld it would be recorded for this very reason.

Cheers,

Glenn.
AnswerID: 105649

Follow Up By: firestang - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:31

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:31
We were off to a fire a while back when a nice lady in front of me hit the anchors (panicked) we went over the median strip onto the the other side of the road then ten seconds down the road some idiot pulled out in front of a 12 ton fire truck and decided to "race' us to the next roundabout.
The boss in the passenger seat was on the radio to dispatch reporting holdups for the cops to have a chat to the driver when a police car rounded us up ,.He must have been doin 120 easy went side ways round the next roundabout and pulled the idiot up that turned out in front of us.
Twas an interesting drive that night, in our Standard Operating Proceedure we cannot force a member of the public to break any road law no matter what the reason ,not even get them to go over a red light to let us by lights and sirens included.

We are responsible for everything that happens either directly or as a result of what we do .Very stressfull but geez it's a real hoot as Glenno said ,honestly there is nothing better.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Friday, Apr 08, 2005 at 14:49

Friday, Apr 08, 2005 at 14:49
I followed a firetruck down the reid and roe highways on the way to work one morning. Man I feel for these guys though. There was SO much traffic and the highway turns into single lanes and goes over a piss and old bridge before widening back up again. They were flogging the crap out of this truck and I could see there lights in front of me for about 15 minutes after they passed me and I was getting all the red lights! Every intersection they would blow the horns, almost stop, then creep through, then smoke would piss out and they'd hammer it off again, mean time I'd almost caught up to them again! Must be kinda fun though, specially blowing the air horns and rumbbling through the intersection. :-)

PS I was speeding either, it's 90km/hr most of that stretch and by the time they got back up to speed they had to slow down again.
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Reply By: Member - Troy - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:15

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:15
Boys in blue... damned if you do.. damned if you dont.

Full stop.. enough said I think.

My 2 cents.
AnswerID: 105675

Reply By: geocacher (djcache) - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:31

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:31
From a Victorian perspective:

From the Road Traffic Handbook.
"Sharing the road with police and emergency vehicles.
You MUST get out of the way of a police or emergency vehicle when its siren is on or it is displaying red or blue flashing lights. Give way and stop if necessary (despite any other rules), even if you have a green traffic light. These vehicles have exemptions to break the rules in the case of emergencies and may act unpredictably. You MUST also stop if the twin red lights outside a Fire Station or Ambulance Station are flashing."

From the Road Safety Act 1998
204. Exemptions for emergency vehicles etc.
(1) Despite anything in these Regulations the driver of an emergency vehicle, if it is expedient to do so and if it is done with due care and attention, may--
(a) on reducing speed and sounding a siren, bell or repeater horn--without stopping, proceed past--
(i) a traffic-control signal displaying a red or yellow circle or a red or a yellow arrow; or
(ii) a stop sign; or
(iii) a pedestrian crossing marking; or
(b) on sounding a siren, bell or repeater horn--
(i) drive in any direction on any part of a highway; or
(ii) overtake or pass on either side of another vehicle; or
(c) at any time--
(i) stop; or
(ii) leave standing; or
(iii) park--
the vehicle at any place; or
(d) exceed a speed prescribed in regulation 1001; or
(e) where the driver would otherwise be obliged by these Regulations to give way to a vehicle--on sounding a siren, bell or repeater horn--continue on course without giving way.
(2) If a person leaves a vehicle standing in circumstances permitted by sub-regulation (1) that person need not comply with regulation 1602.
(3) These Regulations do not apply to the driver of a police vehicle if the driver--
(a) exercises due care and attention; and
(b) if the vehicle is in motion--gives or causes to be given the best practicable warning of the approach or presence of the police vehicle.

Pretty much regardless of the description the police vehicle involved was not involved in the accident. The people approaching the intersection have not approached the intersection at a speed at which they can stop or slow to avoid an accident. The situation seems fairly clear.

Even on a code 1 I approach a green light at a speed at which I can stop or slow, likewise approaching intersections on open roads where you can't see clearly in either direction. The reason accidents occur at intersections are usually a combination of one driver failing to obey a traffic signal and a person approaching the intersection failed to do so in a manner which enabled them to avoid an accident.

IF the Police car had been involved in the accident it would be a different story.

Interestingly I have been in a similar situation. Leaving the ambulance station on a code 1 with lights and sirens operating a car travelling south saw us, braked hard and stopped (as is required) to give us clear passage. The p-plater following close behind ran fair up the back of him. Was the accident my fault? Or did the p-plater learn a valuable lesson about his responsibility to maintain a safe travelling distance in front.

Did we stop? No. We proceed on the emergency case we were already tasked to. If they needed an ambulance as a result of the accident they could call '000' and the response time would have been very good.

I'm sure the situation in NSW would not be a long way different.

Dave
AnswerID: 105682

Follow Up By: Darylive - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:58

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:58
In Qld

The law states a driver will give way to an emergency vehicle sounding a siren with lights flashing.

That simple. I know you cannot give way to what you cannot see or hear but if more drivers paid attention to driving instead of phones, radios, cigarettes and even bloody DVD's we would all be better of.

Like the footy everybody has a better idea than the ref.

daryl
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Reply By: Member - Mark (VIC) - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:35

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 22:35
As some members here are aware, I am a current serving member of the Victorian Police. A traffic cop at that.

Now legislation is different from State to State and I'm not familiar with NSW but I assume it would have the same basic principles.

Considering that incident happened within the CBD I would have thought there would have been plenty of other police units around. If an incident warrants the police members to go 'lights and bells' then there would have been more than one unit responding to it in the first place. Why the police unit didn't stop on this occassion, I don't know. By all means they should have but I don't know what the nature of their call was.

As far as Victorian law goes, that police vehicle WAS involved in the accident. Even though it wasn't damaged or didn't collide with another vehicle. Here in Victoria an accident is 'if owing to the presence of a motor vehicle an accident occurs whereby any person is injured or any property is damaged'. (Road Safety Act 1986 Section 59). I have no doubt that the driver of the white car was startled and some what panicked when he/she saw the police vehicle.

In relation to whether police have an exemption or not, well sorry to say but they do, do some degree. All police and emergency vehicles (police are not emeregency vehicles by the way) are exempt if acting in the course of their duties. But in order to claim that exemption then they must meet certain requirements.

1. It is reasonable that the road rules should not apply AND
2. Take all reasonable care AND
3. Give an appropriate warning (lights, sirens, horn etc)

All of these requirments MUST be met or they will NOT be exempt. This exemption is only in relation to the Road Rules, which include speed, signs, lights etc. But it does not exempt them from any other rule or section from other Actst, such as licences, registration, drink/drug driving, carless driving, dandgerous driving or stopping and exchanging names after an accident as examples.

Now all of this information is only relevant to Victoria. Each State has heir own set of Acts which govern the law. I can't speak of the other States as I am not familiar with their laws, but you will probably find it is very similar.

It is sad to see this sort of thing happen. It doesn't do a great deal for the police image. But remember, we are all humans and yes, even police can make mistakes from time to time.
AnswerID: 105683

Follow Up By: Member - Mark (VIC) - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 23:07

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 23:07
Hmmm. No edit button.

In relation to accidents - Road Safety Act 1986 Section 61.

Not 59 as I had stated.
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Follow Up By: Member - Mark (VIC) - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 23:09

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 23:09
And why do I still have a picture of John's rig in my signature? LOL.

I'll have to get around to changing it back one day :)
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Follow Up By: timglobal - Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 23:21

Thursday, Apr 07, 2005 at 23:21
Hey all,

Nothing sounds unreasonable in your word, Mark. Can only offer direct response from a UK traffic cop I have just had spoken to.

In the UK, we have "National speed limit areas" which is anything above a designated 60mph zone. These are clearly marked with a round white sign with a black tl-br stripe.

Emergency vehicles (which doesn't technically include police vehicles) should be aware of the speed limit and the environment that provides for that. In the national speed limit areas, they may use their discretion to use appropriate speed. Red lights should be treated as Give Way when under "blues and twos" as appropriate.

If there is a secondary incident as a result of a pursuit or response then it's driver discretion to break off. But only in pursuit or response (or a special like the Queen) can you exercise this discretion. If police vehicle is involved then it is still driver discretion, but "it had better be a good call" not to stop and attend. So if the twang was just a bumper-crusher then notify control and sail on. Leave it to the area car.

As for insurance, then significant culpability will likely be with the police, though I don't fancy the premiums for white car next time.

Cheers,

Tim
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Friday, Apr 08, 2005 at 14:59

Friday, Apr 08, 2005 at 14:59
Mark, this is related to a different post that was on ExploreOz just recently and I hope you don't mind me asking. My views on the subject were pretty well made clear, but you as a Vic. Traffic Cop, would you fine somebody for speeding while overtaking another vehicle on the open highway. (assuming common sense was used, it was safe etc etc). Or would you expect them to overtake another vehicle slowly maintaining the speed limit?
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Follow Up By: Member - Mark (VIC) - Saturday, Apr 09, 2005 at 01:00

Saturday, Apr 09, 2005 at 01:00
Generally I wouldn't book anyone for speeding unless they are doing more than 20km/h over the posted limit. But where I am there are enough people doing 30-50km/h over the limit to keep me busy. In between attending and investigating fatal accidents that is. It's been a busy year for me so far with 10 fatals in less than 4 months.

I don't spend alot of time on the open highways but instead target smaller roads, particulary around schools and shopping strips where I believe there is a much greater risk.

I have worked freeways on nightshift though from time to time. Generally those that speed then are also alcohol or drug affected as they are on their way home from nightclubs or rave parties. The best/worst speed I've detected was 180km/h. There was even a baby capsule in the back seat of the vehicle. He was a young driver and his father didn't like me so much as he tried to say hello to me with a meat cleaver. The metallity of some people still amaze me. Needless to say I didn't fine him but instead, arrested him and took him straight to the Magistrates Court. He is still serving a prison sentence.

I still haven't booked a driver of a 4x4 though. Generally they are more mature and responsible. I don't see them doing idiodic things like other motorists.

There was a previous post I made last year when that idiot from NSW was drumming up the anti 4x4 campaign again. Making wild accusations that 4x4 drivers are the worst drivers on the road etc etc. At the time I had stated that I had never attended a fatal or serious injury accident involving a 4x4 in 11 years or service. Unfortuately that has changed. 3 of the 10 fatal accidents I've been to this year involved 4x4's.

One was a 4x4 driver who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He T-boned an idiot that failed to give way to him and pulled out from a side street directly in front of him. Not much he could do with a tandem trailer attached with 1 tonne of weight on it. Slammed right into the driver side door of the little corolla. (Pound Road, Clyde)

The second was hit from behind and on a slight angle by a another motorist travelling at a faster speed. He would have survived if he had have been wearing his seatbelt and wasn't ejected from his Hilux, only to then be crushed by his own vehicle when it rolled on top of him. (South Gippsland Highway, Tooradin)

The third was a drunk that left a licensed club at night without headlights on and then drove his 4x4 on the wrong side of a divided highway only to have a head on with another 4x4 travelling at 100km/h. (Dandenong-Frankston Road, Bangholme)
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Saturday, Apr 09, 2005 at 10:43

Saturday, Apr 09, 2005 at 10:43
Mark, it's so refreshing to here that there are still good coppers out there doing their job (which I'm sure we all understand is hard) with common sense. You here so many bad reports, things like people getting fines for travlling 3km/hr over the limit and while trying to overrtake someone on the highway etc. I think it's a really good thing that there is some feedback from "the other side".

Good on you Mark, thanks for the reply!
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Saturday, Apr 09, 2005 at 22:21

Saturday, Apr 09, 2005 at 22:21
Hi Mark
Great to see you posting again, missed your comments mate.

By the way leave the Troopy in your rig pic, looks great.
And at least it looks like a real 4by LOL.

Cheers
VKS737 - Mobile 6352 (Selcall 6352)

Lifetime Member
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FollowupID: 363015

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Saturday, Apr 09, 2005 at 23:11

Saturday, Apr 09, 2005 at 23:11
"Generally I wouldn't book anyone for speeding unless they are doing more than 20km/h over the posted limit."

... you would be the only one in the state.
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