Auxiliary Battery - Deep Cycle or Crank Type ??

Submitted: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 21:58
ThreadID: 23272 Views:4174 Replies:12 FollowUps:6
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I'm fitting a 2nd battery to my 4.5 80 series, l'm using it with a warn xd9000, waeco CF60 fridge plus other low current items.

A mate with lots of off-road experience suggested not to bother with a deep cycle type but fit a 2nd big cranker (eg 700CCA) directly connected to the main battery. ARB Northern also backed this up today but suggested to use an isolator as well, however hook up the winch to the main battery. This didn't seem to make much sense.
TJM suggested a deep cycle. In several phone calls, deep cycle seems more popular but needs an isolator and cannot be connected directly. Do you agree?

The Warn fitting manual states to use a deep cycle of at least 650CCA to drive the winch.

My plan is to hook up the aux to the main using 32mm^2 (2b&s) cable with a redarc or similar isolator.
I want a heavy (eg 200A) fusible link that l can bolt to the battery post and take feeds from in case of a major short - crash! I cannot find one. Anybody come across one nr Melbourne.

There doesn't seem to be too many threads on which type of battery to use as a auxiliary and what the effect to winching is caused by a crank / deep cycle type.
What info can anyone give?

There is mention of a Redarc 100A isolator available for about $100, cheapest l can find is $135 plus $16postage. Anybody know where l can get it cheaper?

Any experiences with battery type would be great.
Thanks
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Reply By: The Rambler - Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:02

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:02
Don't confuse yourself, just get a good quality marine battery and you will be on the right track.
Bush camp

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AnswerID: 112685

Reply By: Footloose - Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:18

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:18
No electric winch, but my second battery is a cranker using an electronic isolator. Why ? Because if the main battery goes downhill I can still start the vehicle.
The little isolators you speak of are on Ebay for less I think. I have yet to find a voltmeter that is easy to mount and will monitor both batteries. Might be very handy.
AnswerID: 112690

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:48

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:48
Re: voltmeter for watching 2 batteries................

Any voltmeter will work just fine...........simply take the + terminal from the voltmeter to the centre post of a single pole double through (SPDT) switch and run a wire to from each of the outer posts of the switch to each battery. Some of these switches have a "centre = OFF" position which means that the meter will not register when the toggle is in the centre position. Other than that, simply switch the toggle either way to see what each battery has in it. Of course once you have the isolator "joining" the 2 batteries togther, there should be no difference between the 2 readouts.
I have this set-up on my truck....no reason why you couldn't also do the same thing with a digital readout.
Cheers
Roachie
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FollowupID: 368881

Follow Up By: Footloose - Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:52

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:52
Thanks, Roachie. But how the devil do you mount it in the cabin?
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 23:48

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 23:48
Mate, I installed the voltmeter in the dashpod (from Dept of the Interior) which also hoses the UHF and separate speaker. The 2 way switch is mounted directly under the gauge and flips sideways.....I flip it to the right to check main battery and left to check 2nd battery.
Just as a matter of interest, I also have 4 other VDO gauges mounted in their own mounting brackets, which sit above the dash in front of the steering wheel. These are attached to the side of the dashpod in a row with a small "foot" which takes the weight (oat the right hand end of the cluster) and sits on the carpeted dash cover. These 4 are for oil pressure; oil temperature; coolant temperature and turbo boost. There is a air pressure gauge (to measure/display pressure in the 2 air receiver tanks in the cargo area) which sits on the A pillar, attached to the bolt that holds the grab handle.
Look around and you'll find plenty of ways/places to locate your gauge/s
Cheers
Roachie
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Reply By: F4Phantom - Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:30

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:30
Go deep cycle every tiime. Cranking batts are for crank only. I dont know if i can say this but I work at a place which sell deep cycle and will get you the right price. We do 4x4 batts, one guy has one in the land cruiser and runs a winch + fridge and camp lights etc with inverter, does well with it.

call the shop if you wish, tell em you are off the forum, and get the right price.

(03) 95332904

AnswerID: 112693

Reply By: Member - Duncs - Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:40

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:40
I use a battery that is the same as the main battery.

On my previous 4wd I had various battreries at different times and cooked three isolators and lots of batteries. The problem was solved when I bought two identical batteries and ran them through a simple mechanical isolator. I had to lift the bonnet and turn a screw. It was cheap and simple and I fixed quite a few things before they became problems while I had the bonnet up.

I currently have 2 chloride batteries and ran my fridge for a week in Jan on the Gold Coast. The car only rean for about 3 hours in the hole week, no battery problems.

As has been expressed earlier it is nice to be able to start the car from the auxiliary if you need to.

Duncs
AnswerID: 112698

Reply By: Member - Barry W (VIC) - Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:58

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 at 22:58
Hope you have lots of fire wood !!!!!
This question has to be the most talked about subject around the proverbial camp fire outside the tyre debate ???
Just so I don't start a war "AGAIN" this is my experience only !!
I have had success with the heavy duty truck Batteries (100a/h)
Tried marine Batteries no different only cost more for fancy name ??
Considered Deep cycle, havn't used them so I don't Know, reason being that every
person I spoke to that has travelled this country extensivelly as we have suggested that the HD battery were better way to go !!
As I said this is my experience ???
I have used the HD Truck batteries for both main and auxillary for the past 25yrs 4x4 travelling this great country of ours, as well as using them in our 33ft yacht when we were cruising the fantasic coast of Oz most of the time using just a simple solenoid arrangement ( You know the "KISS" theory) always worked for me. Must admit that at the moment using one of those new fangled gizzmo's from
Jaycar Electronics on my cruiser only because it came with it, 12 months on it's going oK ?? First time it gives me trouble guess what ?? going back to the Solenoid
The one thing I will "STRESS" is that you have to be marticulous in keeping second battery charged I have killed a few HD batteries only because I was too lazy to keep them charged. ie camped some where for a few days and not running the car or charging battery, continually flattern the HD batts and they spit the dummy, but they are much quicker to charge now we use the Christies Honda/Alternator combo religously and everything works a treat for us they are also easy to buy anywhere if you need to, at what cost ???
Hope this helps
Just one mans opinion
Cheers
Barry
AnswerID: 112704

Reply By: Mainey (WA) - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 00:26

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 00:26
Beast,

Redarc don’t actually RECOMMEND a deep cycle battery with their solenoid, read these pages their new web site;
http://www.redarc.com.au/ss_two.pdf
http://www.redarc.com.au/sbi_cycling.pdf
http://www.redarc.com.au/BatteryIsolator.pdf

you have posted Warn does RECOMMEND a deep cycle battery with their winch, so you can’t have both products and expect them both to work.

You want a heavy (eg 200A) fusible link that can bolt to the BATTERY post and take feeds from in case of a major short, and cannot find one
---> Why not ask the Warn winch supplier??

Postage for solenoid is $8.40 via Aussie post, Australia wide, are you being ripped off?

AnswerID: 112714

Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 08:45

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 08:45
A proper Deep Cycle battery will last much longer than one just rated in CCA, as you can discharge it deeper without damaging it.

A Deep Cycle Battery can and will start a vehicle in place of the normal starting battery if required.

If the two batteries are separated by a quality isolator, then the chances of your primary battery failing you will be reduced to a negligible level, apart from eventual age.

If the two batteries are paralleled together without an isolator, you increase the chances of two flat or damaged batteries and then you are in deep bleep .

You will get many different opinions from forumites but the simple fact remains:-

Batteries rated in Cold Charging Amps are specifically designed to give high starting current but only limited discharge cycles before they deteriorate.

Batteries rated in Amp Hours are specifically designed for deep discharge cycles, down to 20% without damage for a AGM type battery, or 30% for a wet cell battery and these will still start most types of vehicles if necessary.

All dual battery configurations should include a quality isolator to protect the PRIMARY battery (that is, the one you need to start and run your engine with) from accidental discharge.

Anything less than the above is simple compromise and by the way, I have not mentioned any brand names deliberately to reduce argument and keep your Post on track.
Bill


I'm diagonally parked in a parallel Universe!

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AnswerID: 112724

Reply By: signman - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 08:46

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 08:46
I think i'm with the majority here for a change. I use N70ZZs (650cca) for both main & auxilliary and swap them around about every 6 months. I use a solenoid type isolator- that way you're getting the full 13.8v charge the the second battery. Some of the 'electronic' type isolators with diodes and stuff tend to limit the voltage. Also have a voltmeter with two position swith to monitor condition of both batterys.
Also using Warn winch- D/S battery a definite no no for winching.
AnswerID: 112725

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 10:54

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 10:54
signman,

In the original post it is stated that (Quote)The Warn fitting manual states to use a deep cycle of at least 650CCA to drive the winch(end quote) unless it is a typo? just an observation not meant as my thought on the matter.

However, I disagree with your idea that electronic isolators tend to limit voltage, Rotronics and pirahna (and maybe others) are not in that old fashioned league and do NOT limit voltage as the full voltage delivered to the Start battery is also delivered to the Aux battery!

I put it to you that you loose more power from a solenoid than from a electronic isolator, ask yourself - why is heat created internally in a solenoid and not a quality electronic isolator ?
Is heat an indication of wasted energy ?

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FollowupID: 368925

Reply By: Member - Troopytrek - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 09:21

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 09:21
G'Day Beast,
We have a 4.5 Petrol Troopy with an ARB Smart solenoid and two N70EX Batteries with the winch hooked to the main battery[ as per instructions from ARB dealer that we purchased it from]. The N70EX was chosen because it apparently has the best of both worlds in batteries. It charges like a normal cranking battery [unlike a deep cycle which takes a lot longer to charge unless is one of the super expensive glass mat batteries] but the battery stores and releases like a deep cycle battery. We then chose the smart solenoid because once the main battery reaches between13.2 &13.5 volts it switches over to charge the second battery. If in the event our main battery goes flat we have a jump start button on the dash that links the two batteries together. Our main reason for choosing a solenoid like this over just a standard mechanicl solenoid is as soon as you turn your key to the on position your normal solenoid opens so you are actually cranking of both batteries. The main problem with this is if your main battery colapses you dont know about it until you head bush and flatten your second battery with your fridge then you have a problem starting your vehicle. With the electronic isolater we find the batteries get charged better having the full attention af the alternater allocated to the battery that requires it at the time . We run a waeco cf110 in the rear of the cruiser 24-7 365 days of the year.

Troopytrek!!!!!
AnswerID: 112735

Follow Up By: Beast Of Bodmin - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 21:31

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 21:31
Hi Troopytrek,
This idea of having a battery that is the best of both worlds seems interesting.
I called in to a battery place today to see if what heavy batteries they have. There recommendation was either a Delkor 100Ah Marine or Delkor 900CCA Cranking part (both in 13inch cases, or 800Ah / 700CCA types respectively if 12inch cases).
I made a search for the N70EX you mentioned, is this a Exide Endurance? If so, they are only 620CCA. Not sure if this matters though.

Earlier in the thread, it was said that batteries rated in CCA should be ignored, batteries rated in Ah are the way to go.
This rating system seems particular to Aussie, in the UK all batteries are rated in Ah whether crank or d/cycle.

Our usage is currently on long weekends, we dont have time for pan Australia treks (although l would like to!) thus we spend a lot of time driving and maybe only camp in one spot for a couple of nights. Thus batteries are recharging quite a lot. Over winter l expect a bit of regular winching, so Marine types seem a good mid point. Do you winch much with yours?

Thus regarding connection, my plan was to hook the aux directly to the main battery using heavy cable (32mm^2). One clamp would be a screw type isolator, so that would be a cheap working isolator solution (providing l remember!). Maybe l'll look at a voltaging sensing relay later on, the battery place l mentioned has a 140A Matson unit for about $115 or there is the Redarc.
After a trip l could charge the aux battery with a mains charger to return to 100%(or thereabouts)

Thanks to all for their input.
Beast of Bodmin
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FollowupID: 369041

Reply By: ExplorOz Team - Kerry W (QLD) - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 20:13

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 20:13
Hi Guys -
Heres a link that may give you some more info on batteries.

http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq.htm

cheers
Kerry W (Qld)
Security is mostly a superstition. It doesnt exist in nature. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
-Helen Keller

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AnswerID: 112876

Reply By: Steve - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 20:27

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 20:27
Mate..if you are so stuck for $4...I'll send it to you..
AnswerID: 112881

Follow Up By: Beast Of Bodmin - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 21:32

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 21:32
What you talking about Steve?
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FollowupID: 369043

Reply By: gazzer - Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 22:00

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 at 22:00
If all else fails - GOOGLE-the 12 v side of life. Some interesting info.
AnswerID: 112911

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