Overheating GU...again: follow-up to Post 22,807

Submitted: Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 17:34
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G'day all,
I've been having some messages back and forth with a Visitor called "waterpumpman". His responses are at the foot of my earlier Post number 22,807. I wish there was some way of getting this matter back on the agenda again, so I thought I'd put this message up so that some of you might go back to 22,807 and have a look at what he and I have been discussing.
As always, i'd welcome any additional views......and I'm sure the owners of other GUs would as well.
I want to keep this issue at the fore front until we finally hit a resolution.
Cheers
Roachie
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Reply By: Waynepd (NSW) - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 18:31

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 18:31
Hi Roachie,
I have been keeping tabs on this thread because I have the same sort of thing happening with my 4.2 non-turbo. I am leaning towards the bottom hose sucking in during hi revs. I plan to replace both hoses b4 my trip to Innamincka so i will know sometime in July if that solves the problem.

Its a bit cold around ol' Sydney town at the moment so the temp is running a bit lower in the gauge. But when i am away pulling a campertrailer and fully loaded, i am sure i wil get a good indication of how things are going.

AnswerID: 114932

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 23:22

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 23:22
G'day Wayne,
I won't tell you to save your money, but I've changed my bottom hose over to a reinforced type with a right angle piece of stainless steel.....can't say it has helped, but at least I can discount the sucking-in of that hose as being a possible reason.
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Reply By: Member - Errol (York WA) - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 19:25

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 19:25
Ga'day Roachie . Just reread that post 22,807 as i also have the same prob . So , come on Waterpumpman , we're all waiting . Errol
AnswerID: 114938

Reply By: GUPatrol - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 19:34

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 19:34
I have just added this reply to that post and this is what I know about the subject which is what I learned from a friend with the problem.

Below is what I posted on your previous thread:

I read with interest!! but... what about those sports cars which have the radiator much lower than the engine block? They still work and very efficiently... although they do have a de-ariator sitting somewhere up in the suspension tower on close to the firewall. THe new 4.2 patrols have such deariator and a new radiator design and yet they still overheat...

Now I am going to tell you the story of my friend with a 4.2 TD GQ.
He tried (we as I helped him) and others as he worked in the automotive industry, everything, when I say everything it means the lot...
Radiator, electric fan, new viscous, thermostats, with without, head (new head), hoses, not sucking, bleeding etc etc...
Then he went a little further and increased the size of the water galleries inside the engine, then he got to talk to someone in Melbourne (I think) who mentioned the water pump and also a dearieator kit which is supposed to get rid of steam in certain parts of the engine.
There was a test method included in the kit which we did one afternoon, I can't remember exactly but the amount of bubbles and soda looking water was amazing.... We then replaced the water pump with this new one and its new impeller, and also the kit which took a whole afternoon to fit, the "after" test was much better not as many bubbles, but still overheating although slightly better....
He then decided to make a radical change and modify the way the water circulates (in other words he modified it to work like the new 3.0L engines and many falcons etc) which is more efficient??
That had an effect but not yet OK, his GQ was still getting hot but not as much.
I will add that everything was in perfect order, the engine performance was OK, timing was checked, the pump had been fully rebuilt and the injectors had been done etc...
The conclusion while towing a car trailer with a broken down Rangie on it from Fraser Island back to home was that if he backed off it would not overheat which makes it in his words not good enough (and I agree in a way) because up hills you can't backoff but I would be very interested to know what is that makes these engines rise temperature.
One more thing, at some point he even removed the grill, bullbar and everything to allow more airflow and the test proved to be fruitless....
In my opinion having seen many different engine designs and many engines pulled apart, this engine does not have the capacity to get rid of heat by design, the cast iron head and block don't have big enough galleries to get rid of the heat generated by the applications we use it on today, it was designed to be pulling a bus a slow speeds in a naturally aspirated form.
But I welcome other's opinions... as I am not an expert and my theory cannot be tested unless we can talk to the engineer who designed it.
Will
AnswerID: 114939

Follow Up By: Member - DOZER- Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 19:58

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 19:58
Ok, my thoughts are....get an exhaust gas temperature pyrometer up the engine manifold and measure the temperature of the exhaust.
Then you will know if the motor is running lean or rich or too much boost, or even (and this is a good possibility) if the mufflers are failing internally.....from vibration...
It makes sense, that if you have done everything to cool it down without any success, you either have to cool down the combustion, or get the heat out better, or increase the water time in the radiator by making it bigger...or tripple pass etc.
Good luck
Andrew
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Follow Up By: GUPatrol - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 22:33

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 22:33
Andrew,
This was NOT MY problem, it was a friends GQ, I posted it for Roachie who is having what looks like a similar issue...
He is now selling his GQ and to be honest unless worked hard it does not overheat.

An EGT was installed and EGT measured and found within specs.

THe exhaust was also a 3 inch free flow unit (which was actually new, installed by the turbo and diesel specialists).

In my opinion the overheating issue is the reason why Nissan does not tune these engines to have more power, even the new ones to which they added an intercooler and then backed it off even further to keep producing the same amount of power.
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 23:28

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 23:28
G'day Andrew and GUPatrol,
Mine's the same as the GQ you talk about to a certain extent.
The Nissan gauge only goes above half way when going a bit hard.
Have a VDO gauge that shows large variations in temp when Nissan gauge sits on "normal" position. The VDO gauge is howing about 110 degrees when the Nissan one gets to over half way.
I have a EGT fitted in exhaust manifold and it shows good (lowish) temps. Even when the VDO gauge is showing 110 degrees, the EGT is still only around 400 degrees.
I have a 3" straight through system and includes dump pipe.
I have boost gauge, which shows maximum boost of 11.75psi at around 2200rpm under full load conditions.....
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Follow Up By: GUPatrol - Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 00:30

Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 00:30
Roachie,

That is exactly the same as what he was experiencing, lowish EGT yet the engine temp climbs high, but returns to normal quickly too when backed off which indicates that it is not a radiator problem.
I am convinced that my theory is the correct one but cannot verify it.

I must say though that 110 degrees is not dangerous providing it doesn't climb any higher, does it??

Hopefully his, yours and other's experiences will stop other people spending so much money fixing a problem which is deeper....

On the other side some tuning places in QLD claim to be able to fix the problem by tuning the engine correctly (which goes towards my theory).

If it was a radiator/air flow issue, then the 3.0L model would suffer overheating issues too and it doesn't, yet it produces same or more power therefore the heat produced that it needs to exchange and has to get rid of is about the same.
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 15, 2005 at 23:08

Wednesday, Jun 15, 2005 at 23:08
Roachie, do you remember what the thread is on the temp gauge sender?
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Saturday, Jun 25, 2005 at 09:58

Saturday, Jun 25, 2005 at 09:58
G'day Truckster,
Sorry for delay in responding....I've been away; my mother was very ill, so I went to Narrandera and Wagga to be with her for her last few days and then we had to bury her etc.

Anyway, to answer your question, all VDO stuff is 1/8" npbt which is VERY close to 1/8" bspt (one is 27 threads per inch; the other is 28).

Cheers

Roachie
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Jul 04, 2005 at 13:02

Monday, Jul 04, 2005 at 13:02
Tis kewl Mr Roachie..Sorry to hear...

thanks for the info, gotta get one for mine, but was told they were unavailable.. :-s
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Reply By: Exploder - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 20:12

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 20:12
Gday all

(The pumps I have tested so far make really great milkshakes), For this to happen the cooling system would have to have air pocket’s in the engine or radiator, and for this to happen the system would have to be reasonably empty. IMO by no means a fact.

I new a mechanic who fitted a electric water pump to his high Pro-Formance V8 as he wanted better cooling (Did not talk to him about the details to much as this was about 4 years ago) But he did say that it ran a lot cooler.

Just my opinion as I am no cooling system expert, But I would say that most of the problems you are having are associated with airflow, weight and the larger capacity radiator and that poor standard pump struggling to move all that water around. The electric pump would be a good option as it would probably be a lot cheaper than getting a hand made Pump and impellers.

Maybe you could work out a advertising deal with the electric pump company if it works.
Something like “Electric pump solves 5 year overheating woes on Patrol”.

How many Litres is your radiator/ cooling system anyway?

Good Theory GU Patrol a real possibility!

Good luck with it all anyway.
AnswerID: 114947

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 23:35

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 23:35
Thanks Exploder.
If our mate waterpumpman doesn't come to the party with all the guff he obviously has, I might have to go the electric unit.

However, the one thing that nobody seems to have been able to tell us up until now is.....exactly how hot is TOO hot??? As i've said, my VDO gauge (which is new and I believe to be accurate) shows about 110deg c when Nissan gauge is showing above half way. Is 110 deg c okay; or too hot?
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 01:20

Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 01:20
Its my understanding that as long as they dont boil all should be ok as boiling water does not disapate heat. With 50% coolant and a decent rad cap boiling point is raised to around 120 - 125 deg. If you pull over and shut it down when hot and after about 30 sec it starts to boil the billy - its too hot. BTW eaiest way to fix an overheating Nissan is to buy a Tojo!!!
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Follow Up By: Member - DOZER- Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 09:16

Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 09:16
Roachie
110 c is quite hot, and without coolant there would only be steam there...i believe 50/50 with coolant increases the boiling point to 120..but the thermistat should open at 80 od deg (tell us you still have a thermistat in there as it slows the water flow through the radiator)
Now back to how hot is too hot....aslong as the combustion zone temp is not too hot, you wont crack the head or melt the piston etc, the closer to the head you can get with an egt probe, the better indication of this temp will be...
Now, the only other thing i can suggest to you is to put a pusher pump on the fuel line to the filter/fuel pump. Walbro make a good one.
Im thinking that it may be possible that the injection timing is late under load, or under demand lets say...and because the fuel pump has to suck all the way from the tank, (more fuel than designed to) this can give the effect of later injection timing than optimal...which will give black smoke...and maybe increased heat.
Something to think about anyway...or at least speak to a specialist about....
Andrew
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Follow Up By: GUPatrol - Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 09:52

Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 09:52
Roachie, Water boils at 100 degres C at atmospheric pressure, the reason the radiator cap is there is to keep pressure, maintaining pressure allows the water to not boil at all until much higher temperatures, the fact that the engine temperature drops quickly once you back off means that there is nothing wrong with the cooling system, it is doing its job, however the temp raises if load is sustanined, which means that the heat cannot dissipate from the head quickly enough, did you ever have a look at the water galleries in that engine?
Have a look at pictures or a pulled apart engine and compare it with a modern engine... You will get your answer...

With regards to the solution being a toyo... the 75 series ones have the same problem with the indirect injection diesels.
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 11:29

Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 11:29
obviosly never driven a 75-79 I have - flat out 3rd low everywhere, the only reason they overheat is some older ones have blocked radiators and others are choka block full of seeds but rightfully so they are recognized as being able to keep thier coolwith rads blocked 50 per cent - how do i know? personall experience. cant see the radiatoe for seeds and temp only gets to 3 quarters brush it off a bit and no worries. I have driven over 50 of them in the last few years and I stand by my statement - they will only get warm for a damn good reason!!!
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Follow Up By: GUPatrol - Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 14:07

Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 14:07
Well, tell that to those who are having the issue, some I recall from here as well but if we go by that then the TD42 doesn't have any problems either, it appears to be a few which have the problem and others which are OK.
Mine, a 99 GU TD42T, is OK, flat out doesn't overheat, a friend of mine one towing a caravan up a long way on the hills doesn't overheat....

Because of my friend's issues with his GQ, I have been exposed to this problem and through his problem is that I learned that the 75 - 78 series have an airflow problem, and according to them is the reason why Toyota has not added an intercooler to it.
But it is not my intention to argue over this, I just wanted to provide some info for those who have the issue so they know what others have gone through and they don't go through the same expense... Maybe the electric water pump will solve the problems (that is one my friend didn't try) specially if you can make it work faster/slower allowing you to adjust it, because one of the theories is that the TD42 pump spins too fast and cavitates because it cannot move the water through the block fast enough, some reckon slowing it down may fix the problem. It would be interesting to hear from Roachie.
Enjoy your 75-78 series before Toyota goes soft on them too!!
I recall the Japanese head of the Landcruiser plant when he announced the IFS saying that he was confident that the new IFS cruiser was going to be just as good or even better than the live axle one...
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 17:32

Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 17:32
from posts it seems that it is only aftermarket turbo jobs have issues 7579 and as for going soft it has already started. the 79s are ok and are as tough as they come in the body but seem to vary in quality when compared to the 75
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FollowupID: 370849

Reply By: Member - Geoff M (Newcastle) - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 20:21

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 20:21
Hello Roachie,
I've been following your conversation with "waterpumpman" in the other thread with a great deal of interest, for no other reason than I hate to see people have troubles with something they paid a great deal of hard earned for.
One thing that sticks out for me, "waterpumpman" has probably forgotten more about engine cooling than I'll ever know, but he's dangling carrots.
Come on "waterpumpman" drop the carrot, spill the beans, kill the cliche's and come up with something concrete.
We are really intereseted in what you have to say,

Geoff.
Geoff,
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 23:36

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 23:36
Thanks for the support Geoff.....I'm with you!!
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Reply By: Member - John - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 21:33

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 21:33
G'day Roachie, just a word of warning to all about Electric Water Pumps and turbo diesels, I tried one on 2.8 TD Nissan and no matter what I did, even running it flat out, it could not cool it. Eventually, though I can't prove it was due to the electric water pump, the head gasket went. Was no problem before I started mucking around, very expensive lesson. Just my two cents worth.
John

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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 23:39

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 23:39
Thanks for the cautionery note John,
May I ask......was the electric pump in your 2.8 an ADDITIONAL pump (ie: in place of the standard unit), or a supplementry one?
I'd be very reluctant to remove the standard one.....instead i'd plan to be able to switch the leccy one on whenever i saw the VDO gauge creeping up to 90 degrees c or thereabouts.
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FollowupID: 370757

Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 15, 2005 at 23:16

Wednesday, Jun 15, 2005 at 23:16
Roachie, you dont need to run 2 water pumps and add another $2000000000000000 and same in KG to your truck. No offence but thats a total wamk.

Theres THOUSANDS of GU's with aftermarket turbos out there running stock rad hoses, stock radiators, stock waterpumps, normal nissan coolant, normal this normal that, the works that dont have problems.

It doesnt help as you have found out, but by throwing all these "patches" at it that are doingbleepall but costing you money!

Talking with a mate that is THE guru on the patrol forums (pretty much all forums he is on), and he says (as your VDO Gauge has shown), that 3/4 on the nissan gauge is nothing to worry about, even up to the line before H aint deadly, but above that is MAYDAY..

Go and ask Bazzle yourself over there, he will tell you the same thing.

I dont know what the answer is, but maybe time to take it to that diesel shop dude that posted in one of the threads while back. Or Denco, or MTQ, or some specialist, you will be chasing this your whole life the way its going...
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Reply By: Member - John - Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 23:54

Wednesday, Jun 08, 2005 at 23:54
Roachie, the electric pump replaced the mechanical pump, was run with the water pump controller. I bought a new water pump, machined the impellors off and ran that, to allow the belts to run as original. Didn't work.bleephappens.
John

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Reply By: Member - Ross P (NSW) - Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 09:19

Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 09:19
Roachie,
Know nothing about Patrols but I had an overheating problem with my NP 2004 DiD Pajero. So have a number of other NP Diesels as well as some NM Petrols (3.5L petrol 2000 to 2003).

Around town and towing at low speeds - no problem at all.

Towing an 1800 kg caravan out of Lithgow towards Bathurst was the first time it overheated. First Mitso dealer, (Bathurst) said can't find anything - it must be your non-genuine bullbar.
Second Mitso dealer (Dubbo) agreed there was a problem and had the top and bottom radiator tanks removed and the radiator was found to be partially blocked (car had only doen 17000 kms at this stage). Drove on but still had the problem if I droive in Auto. OK if I locked the car in 4th and drove at aqbout 90koph.
Third Mitso dealer (Townsville) found blown head gasket. and the radiator still partially restricted. Head gasket replaced, system flushed completely and it has been OK since. Now 46,000 kms.
Theory is that there was a "chemical" reaction" which caused the coolant to gel but Mitso have never acknowledged this. They just say use only genuine Mitso coolant and NEVER mix coolants.

PS the coolant in my car had not been changed since new when the problem first appeared.
AnswerID: 115016

Reply By: Member - Geoff M (Newcastle) - Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 09:29

Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 09:29
Roachie,
Just reading above were you suggested your VDO gauge is probably accurate, but weren't 100% sure.
Quick calibration check is make an ice slurry in a container and immerse sender. Should be real close to 0 deg C.
Boil the billy and drop the sender in it. Should read real close to 100 deg C.

The rough but accurate boil the billy calibration is the one you want as that's the end of the scale you are working at.

Geoff.
Geoff,
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AnswerID: 115018

Reply By: Gerry - Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 10:10

Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 10:10
Hi Roachie,
You mentioned earlier that you are running 11.75 psi boost. I have a 100 series with an aftermarket Denco and all I run is 5 psi which I am told is pretty much standard. I get as much grunt as I need to tow the van and it's definitely much better than the standard 1HZ motor. The point I'm making here is that the more boost, the more power and of course, the more heat is generated. It would be interesting to hear what level of boost others are running and whether the overheating problem exists at lower boost levels.
Cheers
Gerry
AnswerID: 115024

Follow Up By: GUPatrol - Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 14:10

Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 14:10
Gerry,

Wayne (on this thread and the first to answer has the problem and his is a naturally aspirated one...

Will
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FollowupID: 370827

Follow Up By: Waynepd (NSW) - Thursday, Jun 16, 2005 at 14:18

Thursday, Jun 16, 2005 at 14:18
Yep that's right, it does blow some black smoke too so maybe the fuel system needs a look at as suggested in one of the other replies.....

Truckster, who is that Jason dude in the shire? You gave me his name yonks ago, it may be time to visit him.

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FollowupID: 371610

Reply By: Member - Gerk Yorke Pen (SA) - Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 16:28

Thursday, Jun 09, 2005 at 16:28
G'day Russell have you thought about that the poor old girl is draging around a lot of extra weight see ya sad-dy all being well.
AnswerID: 115080

Reply By: GUPatrol - Wednesday, Jun 15, 2005 at 22:46

Wednesday, Jun 15, 2005 at 22:46
Roachie,
One thing to support my theory which I forgot to mention is the fact that the TD27 engine used in Terrano I and II has the same temperature issues, yet it is a smaller engine but with the same head design, it is in fact a cut down version of the TD42.
They were having temperature issues in Europe and in Australia when tested in sand....
Read post 23899
Will
AnswerID: 115964

Reply By: trendy - Thursday, Jun 16, 2005 at 22:22

Thursday, Jun 16, 2005 at 22:22
Roachie,
Am not sure if you remember me but I had the turbo modified at MTQ toowoomba abiout 2 months ago ?? not sure on exact date but I have done 16 or 17 thousand km's in this time and travelled between wangaratta in Vic to as far north as Townsville and west to Emerald Roma and Goondiwindi (all in QLD). With the various ambient temps ranging up to 30c, my driving style has not been set by the vehicle's running temp (as it used to be). I tow very heavy loads and load the inside of the vehicle to it's max and beyond, even fully loaded and for testing only I have driven my vehicle harder than I normally would with no overheating to speak of yet!!. Have been a few times 130-140 for 40/45 mins in 4th gear with max temp 110c. Am still trying to organize a couple of days to come and see all you good people at Birdsville in July, but as you maybe able to tell driving is the last thing on my mind on my days off (too much driving on my days on). My final verdict on my vehicle will now have too wait for summer, but all indications are good.
In regards to OK running temps, many radiator people up here have suggested to me 110 for short periods is fine, mine used to run at 100-110c nearly all the time except when it was hotter than this ( as much as 118c ). I currently have 219000km on the clock so reliability at high temps doesn't seem to be a prob, but just imagine how many k's we could get out of these motors if they run cooler??
Anyway I will keep in touch with any info I come across regarding this topic and I hope to see you soon (in Birdsville ? ).
Regards Trevor.
AnswerID: 116075

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