Restricted Rear Vision - pulled over by Police

I would say that this copper had nothing better to do with his time.

Ute’s are generally classified as light commercial so they are mostly excluded from this scrutiny.

The police officer in question was out of line and he new it. Probably why he didn't fine you. You are dead right, if you were driving a ute with a load on, you would be in the same predicament, however you would be using the vehicle for it's intended use. Country folk who tow horse floats rarely use bigger mirrors. I don't use them when towing my camper which I cannot see over the top.

You might find that while this dipstick was talking to you, his mate was checking out your tyres, rego sticker on the windscreen and the overall condition of you car and sussing out weather you may be the type to have drugs on board.

The coppers in the small communities along the Nullabor have one of the highest rate of arrest for drugs in Australia, and they are very good at finding it.

Tim,
I know exactly how you feel as on one of my trips I had done over 14000kms through the Northern Territory,Qeueensland,N.S.W., S.A. without once being stopped for anything yet within 5kms. of crossing the border into W.A. Iwas pulled over for a supposed license check as well as having to do a breathalyser test and this was at 9a.m.Although we live here it is no secret that we are in the police state of Australia.

Welcome to Wa the state with the most useless police force in the world - Ah so the indigenous tribes are smashing the windows of the community swimming pool, answer - cant come why are you bothering us? same place with chix playing netball cops swarming all over the place for a perv (not called) ´coppers also hang round the pubs making sure the skimpys are fully dressed but call them when people are out the front of your place threatining to kill you and they are too busy. I could go on but trust me they are useless. Just for starters most exploration utes have a canvass on the back completly blocking rear vision. If the filth that harassed you has nothing better to do I have a suggestion or 20 for him to better use his time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reading the above reminded me of a trip a few years ago which saw us driving from Peterborough to Broken Hill. There was a large SA police roadblock just outside the last SA town (forget name), and then a NSW police roadblock before Broken Hill. I was in the lead vehicle so after they searched us we waited down the road for our mates to be searched. Over the UHF I asked "Did they find the drugs?" Later in Broken Hill my mate said this had been unhelpful, and he got a defect notice for a stone chip on the windscreen.
Your man at Eucla had obviously failed Public Relations 101. Stupid, mindless harrassment of the public without cause is counterproductive and just alienates the citizenry. Within the police forces I am sure there are some young cowboys who just get off on hooning around in fast cars and being bullies, and there are probably some who through years of pressure start to see the public as the enemy. Just like DIMIA, we need constant scrutiny of these agencies to avoid the developement of a culture unhelpful to their mission and what we pay them for.

What a tosser , if you drive a 8 seater and had 8 people in it, would you be able to see out the back? What a joke of a human. He is a huge reason people hate law inforcment officers. You should have taken his bag number and reported him.

I use my Patrol for work and can't see out of the back windows. My previous vehicle was a loaded ute, before that a Hiace, again couldn't see out of the back windows. Thats why we have side mirrors isn't it. The cute little mirror in the cab is so chicks can put their lippy on at the lights isn't it? (ducks for cover)

Regarding utes and it being ok because it's their intended purpose. I can only assume that loading cargo into my "cargo space" is using that for it's inteded purpose. What a total spanker. Your right though, it's an unfotunate sign of what a lot of WA police officers are doing with their time. In that same area recently my step father was driving back accross the Nullabour in his gas converted late model Holden Berlina (this is his third trip accorss this year). He had his was sitting at 119km/hr. Now ok, technically this is speeding but:
a) c'mon it's a late model commodore you could safley sit on 150km/hr with experinced hands behind the wheel on the nullabour.
b) 9 k's over the 110km/hr limit?? You've got to be serious!
c) I know many a vehicle where the spedo is out 10k/ph @ 110km/hr
d) You could sneeze in a commodore and creep 9k's over.

He got fined. No warning, just a fine. Thanks mate.

Tim,

It's well known that the dregs of the force get the crap postings. If he was over the age of 30, he was posted to the Nullabor for a very good reason - nobody wants to work with him. I remember when a crooked POS who was red stickering cars for finacial gain worked the Nullabor and got caught, he turned up at the NT border patrol a few weeks later.

Being an ex road train driver, I can assure you that the centre rearview mirror is irrelevant. I wonder how many police paddy wagons have functional rearview mirrors? How many trucks, vans and trailers rely on their rear view mirrors for safe travel?

To be fair, in my experience when dealing with WA cops, the rule is 70/30. Most are fair and reasonable folk (even when pinging me) who got into the game for the right reasons, unfortunately the others are feeble minded, insecure cretins. The selection criteria in WA is abysmal. I think cops should be paid much more, but also have far stricter levels of competance assesment.

WA is definately the most over policed state in the country though. No doubt.

$80!!! more like $8.00

Having read the posts, its funny to see how people have become complacent with breaking the law, albeit with only minor things, but also justifying it that way. Getting pinged for going 120 in a 110 zone is a prick, but its gotta happen.

Given the state of some drivers, I can understand the issue the copper raised. You only have to drive down a surburban street at morning peak hour to get all sorts of cars blindly reversing out of their driveways and sometimes stopping only just before its too late, and that is WITH a clear rear view mirror. Getting a goose like that to rely on wing mirrors.... well I'd be surprised if they even went to the effort of glancing at that left hand wing mirror. For him to presume your driving skill would have been foolish, but from what you posted he seemed to be reasonable. Did you actually cop a ticket, or was it just an excuse for him to waffle on?

As mentioned as well, they need time to process a name and rego thru the copper database, and getting the young cocky officer to sprout some crap to you whilst your rego is checked I reckon is a brilliant idea for the senior bloke in the patrol car

Hi BenSpoon and others who've responded.

To clarify things a little - no I wasn't fined and I have no problem with being pulled over for a license check. I recall too, how effective these coppers are at stopping drugs and other illicit traffic across the border and give them the thumbs up for that.

He was alone in his car, unless his mate had his invisibility cloak on. It was around 9am and he was driving towards me, saw me, flashed his lights, turned around and pulled up behind me. I decided not to try to do a runner as I was in a Landcruiser and he was in a pretty Patrol Car that could probably cruise at twice my maximum speed :-) It was right outside the Eucla settlement so someone 'might' have been checking things out from afar, but I doubt it. He was not rude, he just said things I found hard to believe and had never heard before in 30 years of being on the road.

BenSpoon is correct about people not paying attention reversing, but a) this was in Eucla and most people are only driving forwards, and b) he never mentioned anything in his spiel about safety of reversing, it was only about the need to be able to see behind me for cars/trucks coming up behind. They were the reasons I felt it was unreasonable.

Also my 9 year old said afterwards - "that was the closest I've been to a real Policeman". Trying to be a good Dad and setting a good example of respect for the law and authority, you can't just brush it off with a 'geez, all coppers are wa..ers'. But Police who don't use common sense give the rest of the force a bad wrap.

So my posting to this group was seeking some clarification on others perspective on the law and the legality of not being able to see out the rear window in a 4WD. IF the copper was right, then others in this forum need to be aware of the possibility of being pinged for loading the rear area up.
IF the copper was wrong then I want to be sure of my grounds in case I get picked up again because there will be occasions I will have obstructed rear vision.

As it stands, responses have supported my view that he was being silly, but that doesn't mean he was wrong. How do we get a definitive answer to questions like this? Is it Police, or the Licensing authority?

Thanks
Tim

not sure on the legalities, but i agree the centre mirror is 'optional' depending on load etc..

One thing for sure, car makers love to quote the cargo capacity in litres etc. and this is up to the roof, no disclaimers saying 'to the base of the windows only'.

You just got him on a bad day, needing to fill up space in his run sheet.

I understand the compliance rules to be a car must have a drivers door mirror and a internal rear vision mirror. BUT where either the design of the vehicle or the load prevent anintenal rear view morror being used a passenger door mirror MUST be fitted. So if you have external mirrors on both doors you can load up to your hearts content

Umm I must disagree WA is not a Police state, Queensland is.

Trust me Queensland cops do not hand out caution/warnings, I was pulled up doing 130 k/hr comming home to meeka one day and just given a warning. Where as the last time i was pulled over in QLD i did not have my learners permit for the bike i was riding (lost my wallet over the weekend) and fined $150 on the spot.

Yeah try driving the bruce highway between Cairns - Townsville and tell me how many revenue raisers you go past - (particularly around ingham) More than there are in the whole of country WA.

Also the Police in WA are courteous and polite on the whole, I tend to transport them around in my work on a regular basis.

Plus they put the multinova locations in the paper and on the news at night, You would get sent to jail for that in the Queensland where they like to hide the speed camera vans.

I just had a flick through the Australian Road Rules, Road Traffic Act, RTA vehicle standards, regulations etc. As far as I could tell from the legislation, there is no offence specifically for having blocked vision of your mirrors, just that they have to be fitted. That wouldn't exclude someone who caused an accident because he/she did not have vision via the mirrors of being pinged for driving without due care etc. It appears this copper was out of line, but having said that he was by your own admissions polite and didn't fine you for anything anyway. I can't help but think on the occasion when someone did have drugs or some other contraband, and the copper talked crap and as a result found the gear, then there may be some justification.

While we're at it talking about police, what does everyone think of the shoot to kill fleeing terrorist suspects policy in the UK at the moment? Maybe if we had a shoot to kill any fleeing person in Australia there would be a lot less crime??

D-Jack

On one of my many trips to WA from the east I had just come up Madura Pass when a police car did a u turn and followed me towards Norseman. I was very carefull to stick to 85k's well below the limit however the police car stayed very close to the rear of our Caravan and all I could see was the radar just clear of the van, and yes you guessed it after many cars passed in the opposite direction one must have been going a bit quick as suddenly he lit up all the lights and done a very smart U turn and was off after this car.
I was rather put out that he used me as a decoy.

G'day
these are the NSW regulations - pretty straight forward I think and not unreasonable:
34 Rear vision mirrors

(1) A rear vision mirror or mirrors must be fitted to a motor vehicle as required by this clause so that a driver of the vehicle can clearly see by reflection the road behind the vehicle and any following or overtaking vehicle.
(2) At least 1 rear vision mirror must be fitted to:
(a) a car, and
(b) a motor trike with 2 front wheels, and
(c) a motor bike, or motor trike with 1 front wheel, built before July 1975.
(3) At least 1 rear vision mirror must be fitted to each side of the motor vehicle:
(a) if the vehicle has a GVM over 3.5 tonnes, or
(b) if the vehicle is a motor bike, or motor trike with 1 front wheel, built after June 1975, or
(c) if the vehicle is constructed for the carriage of goods (not being a station waggon), or
(d) if the vehicle is a bus, or
(e) if the maximum width of any trailer or other vehicle drawn by the vehicle is greater than that of the vehicle, or
(f) if because of the manner in which the vehicle is constructed, equipped or loaded, or because of the fact that the vehicle is drawing a trailer or other vehicle, or for any other reason, the driver cannot, by means of a mirror fixed to the interior of the vehicle, have reflected to him or her as far as practicable a clear view of the road to the rear of the vehicle and of any following or overtaking vehicle.
(4) A motor vehicle with a GVM not over 3.5 tonnes (except a motor vehicle mentioned in subclause (2) or (3)) must be fitted with:
(a) at least 1 rear vision mirror on the right side of the vehicle, and
(b) at least 1 rear vision mirror on the left side of the vehicle or inside the vehicle.
(5) A rear vision mirror fitted to a motor vehicle with a GVM over 3.5 tonnes must not project over 150 millimetres beyond the widest part (excluding lights, signalling devices and reflectors) of the vehicle or combination.
(6) However, the rear vision mirror may project not over 230 millimetres beyond the widest part of the vehicle or combination if it can fold to project not over 150 millimetres beyond the widest part.

tessa

Now, where do i start,

Well, first up I would like to say that you should be careful with what you say as you could offend people.. You wouldn't believe it, but some coppers are four wheel drive nuts aswell!

I cannot believe the amount of rubbish that has come about because a polite officer has given a warning for something that you don't believe to be correct, whilst he was most likely just trying to do his job of monitoring incoming traffic and people into this state.

As you would have guessed, I am one of those coppers, you know, the ones that take hours on end to arrive at your burglary because they are trying to catch up with others that called before you, one of the ones they just let walk in because they have a low selection criteria, or one of the ones that fine/arrest/charge you because you break the law!?!

Now, unfortunately, I have no straight answer for this, I personally prefer not to stop people in their vehicles unless they are doing somethings obviously wrong, or i suspect they may be. I do not believe he is correct in what he is saying as i haven't heard of it either, but then again, there are so many varying laws and regulations that no one copper would be able to know them all. It could also have been an old law which has since been removed (as it has been found wanting) and this copper has learnt it from an older one and hasn't realised its not there.

There are many reasons why he may have thought this was correct, or yes, he could have just been talking to you about anything just to make an assessment whilst there as they do have a number of people in all sorts of modes of transport bringing drugs into the state. Further to this rule, the Eucla Police also operate with the south australian laws also, and I am not aware if they may have this law over there? If so in total he has thousands of laws to try and remember.

AND YES, HE COULD HAVE JUST BEEN PLAIN AND SIMPLY WRONG! WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES, AND THOUGH YOU WOULD LIKE, AND I THINK IT WOULD BE GREAT, WE ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT, WE'RE JUST HUMAN!

I will be going to work this afternoon though, and will follow up on this and see if i can find out a yes or no answer for you and will post it in next couple of days.

As for not attending jobs for hours etc, that is one really large problem we have in W.A. at the moment. It annoys us just as much as anyone else. Do you think we enjoy knowing that if we got there earlier we would have caught them? These people that commit these crimes have the attitudes that make us very happy to put them before the courts and do our best hoping the courts will give them a good penalty. You are not the only one who has family in the community that you want to be able to feel safe. I feel 99% of us do our best with what we have to make the community and our own families safer. If you feel you can do better, please apply as we do need more! (seriously!)

As for our selection criteria, you would not believe how many people do not pass it! So few that we now look at other states and overseas police forces for recruitment. Unfortunately most educated people don't want to be punched, spat at, abused, then told they do a crap job, when they can sit safely in an office somewhere or travel... We only take the best of those who apply, so if you know people who would be suited, please send them down to the recruiting office, though if they listen to how most people these days and their feelings about coppers, they would think, "why would I bother?"

Most people don't like police because they got pulled over and issued a fine for breaking the law! That I don't understand, you know the law, if you want to try and stretch, its your call, but take the penalty on the chin. I do understand though, when the officer is rude and obnoxious, unfortunately there are some and I must emphasise only SOME.. Someone mentioned 70/30 as in 30% bad, I actually think it would be closer to maybe max 10% (thats 460 which I still feel is too high, but am playing it safe). Also unfortunately, out of the obnoxious officers, a lot started out polite and have unfortunately let down their barriers and taken on all the criticism personally, and as a result this can turn them around. It can be hard at times, to take all the crap and just keep smiling!

I am saddened though by the fact that so many four wheel drivers are so negative towards police and the road rules. Four wheel drives cop the most flack out of all and some of these comments don't help in our reputation.

Thank you to the few of you that looked at other possibilities other than he was just out to get the stats or a cowboy etc, it is nice to hear from the people who have had better experiences.

To close I have pasted this email below which I received a few days ago, don't know why, but for some reason I like it :-)

A POLICE OFFICER SPEAKS
(The author of this article was Trooper Mitchell Brown of the Virginia State Police. More about him at the end of the article.)

Well, Mr. Citizen, it seems you've figured me out. I fit neatly into the category where you've placed me. I'm stereotyped, standardized, characterized, classified, grouped, and always typical. Unfortunately, the reverse is true. I can never figure you out.

From birth, you teach your children that I'm the bogeyman, then you're shocked when they identify/associate with my traditional enemy... the criminal! You accuse me of coddling criminals..until I catch your kids doing wrong.

You may take an hour for lunch and several coffee breaks each day, but point me out as a loafer for having one cup. You pride yourself on your manners, but think nothing of disrupting my meals with your troubles.

You raise Cain with the guy who cuts you off in traffic, but let me catch you doing the same thing and I'm picking on you. You know all the traffic laws...but you've never gotten a single ticket you deserve.

You shout "FOUL" if you observe me driving fast to a call, but raise the roof if I take more than ten seconds to respond to your complaint.

You call it part of my job if someone strikes me, but call it police brutality if I strike back. You wouldn't think of telling your dentist how to pull a tooth or your doctor how to take out an appendix, yet you are always willing to give me pointers on the law.

You talk to me in a manner that would get you a bloody nose from anyone else, but expect me to take it without batting an eye.

You yell that something's got to be done to fight crime, but you can't be bothered to get involved. You have no use for me at all, but of course it's OK if I change a flat for your wife, deliver your child in the back of the patrol car, or perhaps save your son's life with mouth to mouth breathing, or work many hours overtime looking for your lost daughter.

So Mr. Citizen, you can stand there on your soapbox and rant and rave about the way I do my work,calling me every name in the book, but never stop to think that your property, family, or maybe even your life depends on me or one of my buddies.

Yes, Mr. Citizen, it's me the cop!

The Author of this article was Trooper Mitchell Brown of the Virginia State Police. He was killed in the line of duty two months after writing the article......

THANKS FOR LISTENING AND IF YOU HAVE ANY CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK, I AM HAPPY TO LISTEN, BUT IF NOT CONSTRUCTIVE, DON'T BOTHER!

Regards
Ando 80

Tim

Hi

At the risk of offending you, maybe it's not such a good idea to look at the rear passengers (in the rear view mirror) while chatting to them. It would be a fair call if the officer called you into line for that because it is a driver distraction.

I once used the rear view mirror to supervise naughty kids in the back and nearly ran into the car ahead. Never again.

EV700

being done 119/120 in a 110 is just like going fishing, sometimes you get caught.
Cheers
Charlie

Hi, Obviously some state laws vary quite a bit. I can remember when I was younger, buying my first car, a Hillman hunter Station Wagon. Dad took it out for a test drive and took the left hand mirror off the passenger door. A few months later Mum made curtains for the old girl (that was the fad back then and we all had to have them!!). I got pulled over one night because the rear window was restricted. I had the curtains closed at the time. The cops were really good about it surprisingly. I dont know about W.A but here in S.A then, they said that as long as there is two mirrors on the car i.e one on each front doors, it is perfectly legal. It is only illegal if there is only one mirror such as the drivers door and the back window is restricted. May have changed by now but who knows.
Would be interesting to find out now.
Cheers,

Shaun.

Here you are, found it this arvo, though most guys didn't know about subsection (c), even the traffic guys..

Road Traffic Regulation 263.

Drivers to have uninterrupted and undistracted views, etc
(1)To Drive while not -
(a) In a position behind the steering wheel as to have full control over the vehicle;
(b) Obtain a full and uninterrupted view of the road and traffic ahead and each side; and
(c) Obtain, in a rear vision mirror attached to the vehicle a clear reflected view of every overtaking vehicle.

Fine $100 and 3 demerit points.

Now depending on your interpretation of a rear vision mirror, in that the side mirrors are just that, side mirrors and the rear vision mirror is the one inside to see directly to the rear, the copper was right. Of course trailers will have their own special section somewhere else covering not being able to see past them.

Unfortunately I ran out of time before shift to check court rulings to see if any had been made in regards to the interpretation of a "rear vision mirror".

For your info.

Regards
Ando80

I'd say he was just a typical moron human desperate for some power that couldnt get anywhere else so he became a cop...

Should have asked him what happens when your towing a full sized caravan. Your mirror is also blocked then, should you have strapped a young kid with a hand held to the rear of the spare tire on the van to tell you whats behind?