re oil chande for diesel motor

Peter, personally I own a Mitsubishi Triton 4WD 2.8 diesel, and I service it every 15,000km. As for servicing more regularly, it is totally unecessary with synthetic. In the service manual it says 7,500k's to service, but with synthetic we go to 15,000k's. The oil tests at 15,000k's are perfect. We may even start going to 20,000k's.

Just a minor point on one of your posts. 5,000k oil change .... environmental vandal? Toyota speifies for their late model, tubo diesels, 5,000km normal driving or 2,500km for continuous city driving or when towing! When it comes to excess of 10-15,000 bucks for a diesel rebuild, I reckon the costs involved with 2,500k oil changes are a pittance in comparison with the long term consequences! Cheers!

PS The bottom line is ... the more regularly the oil is changed, the longer any motor will last. How long do you plan to keep the vehicle can be another argument.

pg - $10-15000 for an engine rebuild - send em to me Ill do em for $9000
kezza

Oziexplorer. On the assumption that you are being honest about your qualifications (you should be familiar with the C.A.R.S checklist for searching the net) and that I happen to agree with your comment that 5000k oil changes are 'environmental vandalism', I will tell you a story about my 1HZ and maybe you can give me some advice. When I was servicing a fleet of trucks and earth moving equipment, we were instructed to change the engine oil on all the trucks at 10,000ks regardless of their make. In all my 25yrs as a fitter with this 'company' we never had one engine failure that could be attributed to infrequent oil changing. So when I bought my 80 series (with 65,000ks on the clock) I started changing the oil at 10,000ks and after a while my oil light began taking longer and longer to go off at cold starts. As the car was under warranty, I took it to Toyota and they agreed to look into the problem. The first visit to them saw a new oil pump fitted. The second visit saw all the external oil plumbing and valving removed and checked and a leakdown test done. The third visit resulted in a complete engine stripdown and measure up. They said the engine tolerances were well within the acceptable limits which was surprising since the engine took around 10 seconds to build up oil pressure on a cold start. They gave the car back to me and apologised that they did not know the cause of the problem and they could help me no further. Small consolation for me! A few weeks later they phoned me and said through a chance coversation with a dealership in Sydney, they may have discovered my engine's problem. Back I went and new oil squirters were fitted. Bingo, problem gone! Apparently there are small check valves inside each squirter to prevent the lubrication system from draining. Now happy, I went back to my 10,000k oil changes and low and behold the problem recurred. The car was now out of warranty and the local dealership abandoned me so I wrote a letter to Toyota Australia and was politely told to urinate into the wind as 10,000k oil changes were too infrequent and 'sludging' was occuring, preventing the check valves from sealing. They advised me to find an engine oil with a high detergent content and instal it every 5000ks then possibly the check valves would be flushed clean and begin sealing again. I have only done 1 oil change and 3000ks since adopting their advice without any noticable change so far. Sorry for the short novel but I thought you may be interested in all the details. My questions to you are:-
1) Have you heard of this mallady before?
2) Would changing to a synthetic oil offer the same supposed cleaning properties?
3) And lastly, can you tell me what brand and viscosity oil you are using in your NATURALLY ASPIRATED DIESELS. You made mention of this in your first posting. Thank you, Derek.

Derek, no, I have never heard of that problem, and have been around all brands of four wheel drive vehicles for to long.
I personally use Mobil Delvac 1, some of my friends use Mobil 1, as for them they can use the Mobil 1 in their diesel, lawnmower, wifes car, motorbike etc; and they buy it at KMart when it is on special or one of their 15% or 20% discount days. In my case, we have Delvac 1 for other vehicles. If I did not have access to Delvac 1, I would also use the Mobil 1 5w-50

You see, I just cannot understand or comprehend why lube oil bypass filters are not more common. A bypass system will remove the particles in the oil that create the problems. The majority of bypass filters are in the 1 to 3 micron range. The cost of a bypass filter if you do it yourself is in the order of $160.00. That includes the filter body top, filter, and the hoses and bits and pieces needed. The major issue with fitting one of these is getting the oil back into the engine. With so many vehicles having double sumps has made life a tad more difficult, however in many engines you can put the oil back in to the engine via the tappet cover which makes life easy.

Just look at the European diesels which are at 20,000k services. Reason is they are fitting these vehicles with proper lube filtration equipment and using better quality oils.

Ozie. Thanks for the info. I presume the Delcon 1 is a synthetic oil. I am certainly considering switching to this kind of oil, but I must first solve this start-up problem. Toyota recommend 5000k changes- what would you advise if I used a synthetic oil? Thanks for your reply. jarrett@powerup.com.au

Oops, forgot that you may have issues with warranties etc on a new vehicle if you do it yourself.

There is nothing in the warranty today that can impinge upon you by doing it yourself. The main thing is that it is done correctly.

Changing the oil and filters every 5,000k's is just plain ridiculous, and an environmental vandal, not even taking into account the financial cost. 5,000k services went out with the dark ages. What does your handbook say?

Mate, my baby has almost 300,000K on it. 5000km oil changes are bloody sensible- not "vandalism" or "ridiculous". Having said that, I really think its horses for courses on this one. And when your baby is as special as your woman, I reckon she deserves a similar budget ;)

If you sought out the correct information and did the correct things to ensure the longevity of your engine, you would realise the falicy of changing the oil every 5,000k. It is rank stupidity to change oil and oil filter every 5,000k, not taking into account the environmental or financial loss. Get the correct and proper information.

Changing oil more regularly cannot be bad for an engine. Dont care what anyone says... All my bikes and race bikes lasted more than mates, and only had one blow up in 20 yrs, that was a faulty piston, the ring locating pin fell out.. bye bye barrel, piston, crank, rod etc..! Oh and no warranty since it was raced.... :'(

How can it be?

Financial loss, that would be blowing the motor up. I dont have $6000+ sitting around to rebuild it ... (specially since Useless Family assistance say they overpaid us $1400 and would like it back by Dec 27th...bye bye Long range Tank)

I got the car second hand, dont know its history, so I gotta do the best for it I can, and since I do a lot of hard offroading (not fire trails) the oil takes a flogging...

YMMV...

Truckster, there wouldn't be a single motorcycle manufacturer who doesn't use synthetics in their race bikes!
In every event from world class motocross, enduro, grand prix, superbike, bears, world speed record - you name it - synthetics are used, because they provide the absolute best lubrication protection that is available!

I am somewhat suprised when in all your claimed years of racing, that you have not used them yourself.

I also race bikes.

I am involved in an engine oil analysis program using Mobil 1 (5W-50) in my 1KZ-TE 3.0 Litre turbo diesel Toyota Surf. The manufacturers recomendation is 5,000K oil and filter change using mineral based oil. The mobil lab analysis on the synthetic has shown that even after 10,000K - it has better specs than new mineral oil.

Do yourself a favour and follow the links that Ozieexplorer provided - and have a detailed read on the subject, and some of the tests that have been done. There are trucking companies, world wide that are running synthetics to 200,000 MILES, with only filter changes, and achieving massive reduction in costs and environmental disposal gains as well.

Tuco

Truckster you should convert your 5,000km oil changes to 10,000km oil changes and fit a bypass oil filter that filters out the sub 5 micron which causes the damage. This would put you in front financially and save you wear and tear and the environment. This is really the way to save your engine, not changing the oil more frequently than is necessary. Oil itself does not wear out, it is the contaminates that cause the problem. The trouble is the filter you have on your vehicle does not filter out the fine contaminents which cause the wear. My diesel oil does not look black like everybody elses does just after an oil change, reason, I don't have the gunk in my lubrication system floating around that makes it black.

Tuco69

I never said I dont use Synthetic.... I said I changed it more often than all my mates, and in 20 yrs and 33+ bikes to have 1 blow up, tell me thats not a good record? Unmatched in our club...

Thats from Trials (yes Ty80!), MX, Enduro, then road racing, from 250's, GP bikes thru to superbikes....

Oh and lets be honest, none of us know what oil the top teams are using... Its probably synthetic, but nothing like the crap u or me get hold of... They used to run on R30 and R40 which is Castor oil...

We took some out to Caltex when I was racing to the Kurnell Rfinery to see what was good and what was bad, this was in around 84, and the results shocked us all....

Hello All, We run 4 Toyota vehicles here as well as a bit of heavier gear.(Caterpillar) Do oil changes on toyotas every 5,000 km, with eng. oil filter change very 10k, using Rimula X 15W/40. Our conditions are hot, 47*, 51* & 48*, over the last three days, dusty, and we have a variety of drivers - the regular changes are good insurance, and as Joe says above, the working side of vehicle gets a more regular check. Who was calling us stupid? Regards to all...

Which model Nissan require 5,000k services? Certainly not the current model 3.0l diesel. My ED33 Nissan was 8,000k, my SD24 was from memory 7,500k.

Sorry OziExplorer.. Wrong again!

I've got a ZD-30 based Patrol (rocket ship in third, anything lower is pathetic!) and the manual specifies (page 8-6 and 8-7) that the oil must be changed every 5000K's, with the oil filter every 7500K's unless vehicle is used in hot and dusty environments. The adverse conditions statement says that "If the vehicle is operating in hot or dusty conditions, the vehicle should have the engine oils and filters changed every 55 hours or 2500Kms" (page 8-7)

Additionally, we have a Mitsubishi Triton diesel and guess what? The book disagrees with your statements!

What it comes down to is an application of "first principles" of what the oil actually does. The oil is designed to do two things.

1. It is supposed to COOL the engine components. (Yes I know that it's a water cooled engine, but without the oil performing this function too, you would need components to withstand very high tempuratures!)

2. It is supposed to lubricate the metal to metal friction surfaces, such as bearings, pistons, cam lobes and bushes. It does this by either "splashing" the components, or "immersion" of the component. The oil is either surrounding immersed components, or the oil is pushed into it, as like in a turbo-charger.

In the oil there are detergents, that help breakdown the blow-back from the combustion cycle, (called soot), heat breakdown and the dirt and crap that gets into the oil from your breathers and such.

Now, if you use the oil past say 5000K's, or about 90 hours old, the detergent (scrubbing) capabilities of the oil become less effective. What you now have is a very good abrasive compound being pumped around your engine, through your oil-cooled turbo bushes (*NOT* good) and around components such as bearings, cams and cylinder head linings.

Now, in the ZD-30, I have done a few things to make the oil protect a little better. I've added an oil-cooler, (a jumped-up radiator for oil) and a remote oil filter, capable of cleaning down to around 5 micron. (the standard filter goes to about 12 microns and 20 grams of dirt)

What these two devices do is allow the oil to be cleaned MUCH more effectively, by removing carbon deposits from unburnt fuel blowing-by the piston rings, heat damage to the oil and such. Additionally, I have cooler oil as I remove the heat to the oil by using an oil thermostat and oil cooler. This keeps the oil down below the break-up tempurature and prolongs the engine components life. They only cost $145 from Supercheap! The spin-on filter replacements cost about $200 from Cooma Diesel.

It's entirely up to you as to how you look after your vehicle, but as for me, I stick religously to the book!

Also, it is not possible to test the oil's performance by "just looking at it". You will need to send a sample to a laboratory! If you have access to a microscope with 400x mag, have a look of dirty oil as compared to the same batch of oil as when it was clean.... It will scare you....

By the way, I haven't found any fully-synthetic diesel oil yet.. I've found a few of the fortified oils though.. Personally, I stick to a Penrite oil, called HPR Diesel Light, as it offers a good spread of tempurature performance, coupled with a semi-synthetic base. It's not cheap, but it's good!!

ChrisFrd, Wow, you have a different Triton book to mine. Pity you cannot post pictures here. Mine definetly says 7,500k's for the 4M40 engine. As for the ZD30, I know my next door neighbour's book is 8,000k's. I just checked to see if he was online to confirm, but he aint. To change the oil every 5,000 and the filter every 7,500k is just not logical or practical.
I also use a bypass oil filter, and would never be without one. I fully realise what the oil does, but using a FULLY synthetic diesel quality motor oil (from the Mobil website quote: Mobil Delvac 1 SAE 5W-40 is a fully synthetic diesel engine oil designed) it is wasteful in the extreme and stupid to change the oil at 5,000k's. If you use a quality product like Mobil you can avail yourself to Mobils testing services.
Check out this link:
http://gulfcoastfilters.com/why_do_we_change_oil.htm
Check out the photographs at the bottom of the page.
Your 5 micron bypass filter does not excite me, 2 micron with a max of 3 would.
What is this? "The spin-on filter replacements cost about $200 from Cooma Diesel" is that the complete bypass filter unit? Whose/which brand do you use?

Great money making lurk for Toyota dealers. If they designed the engine properly, 10,000k would not be a problem. 5,000k is an absolute waste of money. Fit a bypass oil filter, change to synthetic, and 15,000k's or 12 months would not be an issue.

Wayne, if you dont play their game your warranty is out the window....

Do what you feel is right.. Also betting Nissan/Toyo/Ford/Mitz etc dont give a bleep te if Mobil make an extra $10 a week.....

Suggest you go and do some research on synthetic oils:
http://mr2.com/TEXT/synth_oil.txt
Then go to the Mobil website for further research.
About time people stopped being environmental vandals.

If you fitted a sub-micron by pass oil filter and changed to synthetic, 15,000k plus would not be an issue. At say 14,000k send a small sample to Mobil for testing to see how much furthur you can go on it. In petrol engines 25,000 or 12 months is not an issue on synthetic.

People in Australia are living in the dark ages of lubrication and the car companies are bleeding you financially on services.

Dont do anything but what the manufacturer wants... Your warranty may depend on it, and IM betting a 1hdujioshngtf-fcf engine is around $5-10k to rebuild.....

2.8 or 3.0 GU is $17000 for COMPLETE rebuild after hydraulic lock! Mate knows that one.

Firstly who says that the synthetic oil is better? the bloke selling it? the company???

How do you know your doing any good???
logical I would have thought... Sure not doing any harm....
Keeping thick good clean oil in there, and getting all the crap and garbage out in the filters, adn oil. Also helps you to find problems earlier like metal in the oil..... If you do have and you didnt know for another 10,000klms, Im thinkin you is up for lots more cabbage.....

To ignore this progress and dump the oil early for no other reason than you think it's a good idea is not very bright.

Saying its not very bright is the dumbest thing thats ever been posted here!
Dude, do what you will.. My engine is going to have clean oil... simple as that.

Go for it Truckster - it's your money. Why stop at 5000kms, why not 2000kms or 1000kms or every week? And if you don't believe that synthetic is superior you're really not up with it.

Thats it Steve... Its my money. For the $50 it costs me to keep it good, Im happy and thats all that matters....

Phil, I recently had a lab analysis done on the Mobil 1 (5W-50) that I use in my 1KZ-TE Surf. The oil had done 9,842 K's (with a filter change at 5,000 K's) and the viscosity of the sample is 105 cSt @40C compared with a new oil sample which is 102 cSt@40C - a negligible change. A similar test with multigrade mineral oil had the viscosity DOUBLED at only 1,500 K's.

I posted a full report at:

http://forums.overlander.com.au/messageview.cfm?catid=5&threadid=2073

... if you are interested.

Tuco

Tuco,

I know what the analysis means. I've had it done myself with past vehicles. But a lot depends on the type of driving you do. 10,000km of easy highway driving will be fine. But if I go away and crawl around the Vic High Country, tow a van, do short trips or cross some deserts, then I'll need to to alter my oil change interval. I couldn't be bothered doing oil analysis to see whether my oil will make 10,000km under those conditions. Easier just to change it to be sure. Costs me $30 to put the latest Valvoline CH-4 oil in at 5000 km - I have no problem with that.

Also, sharing your results is interesting and quite educational. But it doesn't prove that synthetics are superior for a turbo-diesel. I think you'll find that you'll get the same results from a good quality CH-4 mineral oil.

Cheers

Phil G

Opps, forgot to mention that by-pass filters are the best protection for turbo bearings and not frequent oil changes,
Cheers Michael

Michael, Where and how do you fit the bypass filters? I Have a Toyota 1hd-fte. Does it fit between the spinon and block? do you have to tap into the oil distribution system? Is there a site I could look at? Thanks, Mal T.

Mal, , you can fit it anywhere you have 120mm square hole, tee piece in oil pressure switch, it has a 1mm hole in an adaptor, and only flows about 1 litre a minute, anymore and it would drop your gallery pressure. The return goes back to the sump, via various methods. The company called Filter Technology, near Newcastle, the old filter 2000 company, I used to be a distributor for filter 2000 and i swear by them.It keep your oil perfectly clean and in petrol engines it keeps the colour of the oil the same honey colour as is from new. Diesel's go a little darker but you can see the dipstick through the oil on it. Michael

just had a look at the Amsoil by pass filter ,its an additional filter to filter smaller particles to keep the oil clean,if blocked the original filter is still in line

Ray do you realise how long it would take to block a main oil filter!

Many turbo engines go to substantially longer service intervals than 5,000k. Check out the European small diesels. About time Australians stopped getting ripped-off and being told garbage by vehicle companies. 5,000k's is a good money making racket. Lubrication knowledge is in the dark ages in Australia, bit like our diesel fuel (about to change) About time people did a little research. With a bypass filter and quality oil 10,000 k's plus on a turbo diesel is not a problem. The newer water cooled turbo's place nowhere near the demands on the oil that they used to.

Ozi

It may take 12 months to block it, but get it wrong, and it could be 10 mins after an oil change... If you miss a few changes and a blob of gunk builds up, u changing the oil might be what it takes to dislodge it... Anything can happen with engines these and old days..Ever heard of Murphys Law?

Turbo Diesels treat their oil like crap, and make it look old within around 100klms if that....

Hey dont worry people, everyone do your own thing... I happen to respect my donk, and giving the bearings a fresh bath every 5000klms is ok by me.

Truckster said:
Turbo Diesels treat their oil like crap, and make it look old within around 100klms if that....

I agree with your observations in most respects, but there are quite a few new engines that don't dirty the oil with soot.
A friend bought a new Benz Sprinter a few months back. 2.5 Turbo diesel - and the first scheduled oil/filter change is at 20,000k. We pulled the dipstick on the weekend, at about 6,000K and the oil is still clean!

Tuco

Tuco,

Do that when its got 50-100,000klms on it and I bet its a different story!

Bozo,,,little chance of ozi ever puting any of his onto the 2nd hand market,,,with his stance on synthetic oils instead of mineral [natural], his vehicles are all plastic as well.

Bozo by name and bozo by nature. People are always queueing to buy my vehicles second hand as they know how well they are maintained.

Derek I have a Phd PE, MBA Hons, LLB Hons, but anybody can be a scientist. A scientist is about researching, observing and recording.

Real easy to give oneself a phd .ba .masters ect on an internet forum,and use some real names as in WALTER MITTY,,

More importantly, scientific communication entails objectivity, restraint, courtesy and politeness, under the assumption that ones research might not be infallible.

...lets talk 4wd.

Axel or Karen, jealousy is not a good trait.
Go and have a look at European diesel engines on current models/well lets say last 3 years, and you will see 20,000km is the norm. You imbeciles are incable of comprehending or doing any research.

Ozi...

We can do research and bleep like that, but I happen NOT to believe everything I read on the net, and in books...

Sorry to bleep you off, but thats life eh.

OZI, jealous of what,,a blown out ego????

Truckster, start digging your 6' 1820mm deep hole.
Must be crook when you are old and cannot keep up to the times and learn new things and move with the times.

Na, they use lousy oil for a start and they don't have lube oil bypass filters fitted.