'shake' on shutting down diesel, meths and water pumps!

Submitted: Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 17:19
ThreadID: 27263 Views:3195 Replies:9 FollowUps:12
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G'day - my 200tdi S1 Disco (1993) has started 'shaking' more noticably on shutdown - just wondering if anyone had any ideas on what this might be a symptom of?

Also, I have an intermittent leak at my water pump seal. It doesn't really worry me in terms of fluid loss (100mls/week max), but I'm assuming it's probably a good idea to just replace the whole pump anyway? Presumably there are time advantage in doing this in conjunction with timing belt?

Finally - is it ok to ad meths to diesel to remove water or is this not really necessary if diesel additives are used? I've also heard that meths is an octane booster for petrol...if this is true, presumably there are limits in how much can be added before max octane boost is achieved versus negative effects?

Thanks
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Reply By: Member - Toolman (VIC) - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 17:38

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 17:38
Pathfinder,
From my limited knowledge of waterpumps I'd say a leaking pump is a precursor to the pump packing it in so I would be changing the waterpump, unless ofcourse it is leaking from the gasket which is a different porposition again.

regards
Toolman
AnswerID: 134630

Reply By: Exploder - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 18:12

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 18:12
Not sure about meth but Tolulean, Is used as a octane booster in petrol engines you can if you wish go as high as 30% mix of the stuff in a regular engine if you are game.
AnswerID: 134633

Follow Up By: Member - rengatt (VIC) - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 18:30

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 18:30
Toluene is the main ingredient of solvent based contact adhesives, it is the component that allows the contact to keep its adhesion and then to flash off to allow it to air dry.

If toluene is strong enough to do this imagine what it could do to your rubber components.

Years back alot of petrol stations were accused of mixing toluene into their tanks because it was so much cheaper than fuel.

Ren

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FollowupID: 388678

Follow Up By: Exploder - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 18:57

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 18:57
Trust me it is one of the ingredients used to raise the octane number of fuel along with a friendly chemical called benzene or something along those lines, Bp does recommend adding Toluene if you need PULP fuel where non is available 5% will rase the octan Number by 3 point’s Approximately, Some race engines will and can run it in high concentration 50% and above I remember reading somewhere.

Petrol is a fairly good solvent as well remember, and modern fuel injection fuel systems don’t just use the standard run of the mill rubber either.

Have you ever looked at the ingredients on the back of those Octane boost or fuel system cleaner bottles? .

Because I never have, but a willing to bet there are some fairly nasty chemicals in them, Next time I am up at the servo I will check might be interesting, if in-fact they do even list what they put into them.
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FollowupID: 388679

Follow Up By: Member - rengatt (VIC) - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 19:01

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 19:01
I agree in a modern engines where the rubber is solvent resistant there shouldn't be a problem.

There might be an issue for folks with older model vehicles that have a lot more of what you could call the loder style rubber.

Ren
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FollowupID: 388681

Follow Up By: Tanka - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 19:11

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 19:11
Have a look at this. Dont know how to do the link thing, sorry.
Tanka.
http://www.standards.com.au/NEWSROOM/NEWS%20RELEASE/2000-03-01/2000-03-01.HTM
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FollowupID: 388682

Follow Up By: Member - rengatt (VIC) - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 19:15

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 19:15
thanks Tanka, you dont have a link for ethanol additives do you?

Ren
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FollowupID: 388683

Follow Up By: Tanka - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 19:36

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 19:36
Here is a page to look at:
http://www.autoindustries.com.au/ethanol.php/2004/03/00000001.html

And another:
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/ethanol.htm

This one has a lot of reading, but should be interesting:
http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/standards/ethanol/

Tanka.
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Follow Up By: Exploder - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 20:15

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 20:15
Well look’s as if you can’t run the Ferrari on the eth, Bugger.
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FollowupID: 388692

Reply By: tour boy - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 18:13

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 18:13
Hi If the engine shakes more than it used to on shutdown the 1st place I would check is the engine and gearbox mounts.
Regards
Tour Boy
AnswerID: 134634

Reply By: Tanka - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 18:30

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 18:30
Change that pump. Agree with above about engine/gearbox mounts. Could also be that the fuel system isnt shutting off fully. If the car is going in for repairs/service and you have water woes, I wouldn't worry about additives, would just get your mechanic to drain and flush your tank, change fuel filter and take it for a blast.
Tanka.
AnswerID: 134640

Reply By: Footloose - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 21:23

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 21:23
Severe shaking and "running on" of the motor after you've turned it off can also point to the diesel fuel pump.
AnswerID: 134659

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Saturday, Oct 15, 2005 at 22:19

Saturday, Oct 15, 2005 at 22:19
could be the diesel fuel 'cut off' valve is not seating fully and letting some fuel pass when the ignition is turned off, or it could be as simple as low compression in one cylinder, caused by a faulty valve or incorrect valve settings.
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FollowupID: 388784

Reply By: Russ - Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 23:50

Friday, Oct 14, 2005 at 23:50
Mate,

Re the meths. When I bought the LC 100 last year someone (I know who) told me that you can add meths, cant remember the amount or frequency, but the purpose was to ensure that you get rid of any water that may be in your fuel.

RB
AnswerID: 134674

Reply By: Brew69(SA) - Saturday, Oct 15, 2005 at 08:01

Saturday, Oct 15, 2005 at 08:01
Yep change pump. I know if the timing belt needs doing its not worth doing if water pump is dodgy but i wouldn't change the belt just because the pump needs doing unless of course it is close to needing to be done.
AnswerID: 134690

Reply By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Saturday, Oct 15, 2005 at 17:06

Saturday, Oct 15, 2005 at 17:06
Hi Pathfinder,

About the shakes on shutdown, I agree with checking the engine and gearbox mounts but it might also be the fuel solenoid on the injection pump no longer sealing positively. It's on the back of the pump, just above the outlet pipes to the injectors. Remove the wire connector, then the whole solenoid screws out - it's a big hex - maybe 25mm? Take the solenoid and the plunger to a Bosch diesel injection specialist and they should be able to fix you up with any bits that need replacing.

Re. the water pump - if it's the shaft seal, it's only a matter of time before it goes completely. For the cost of a new pump, it's not worth the risk of a major coolant loss and cooking the engine.

A few hundred ml of metho in a tank of diesel isn't gong to cause any problems and should disperse small amounts of water but, if you're already using a diesel treatment, these are all, AFAIK, supposed to disperse water, kill algea, improve pump and injector lubrication - and make you a cup of coffee before you've even realised you want one! I've been using Aust-made 'Diesel Doctor' for a while and I'm happy with seeing less water and a bit more lumpy crud in my sedimenter at each check.
AnswerID: 134729

Follow Up By: pathfinder - Monday, Oct 17, 2005 at 09:14

Monday, Oct 17, 2005 at 09:14
thanks for the comprehensive response Ian and all other replies...
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FollowupID: 388885

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Tuesday, Oct 18, 2005 at 00:50

Tuesday, Oct 18, 2005 at 00:50
As a stop gap measure to stop a water pump leaking you can lower the fluid level in your radiator. I started out on a 14000k trip and noticed the water pump was leaking so I dropped the water in the radiator to just above the fins and emptied the overflow to prevent it filling the radiator back up. air compresses fluid doesnt so it takes pressure out of the cooling system and doesnt appear to effect cooling (still had about 8l of coolant ) I forgot about it until 20.000k later when i drained and refilled the coolant and it started leaking (had it replaced) as it hadnt leaked a drop using this method
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FollowupID: 388972

Follow Up By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Tuesday, Oct 18, 2005 at 07:26

Tuesday, Oct 18, 2005 at 07:26
Hi Guys,

Davoe's advice is no doubt well meant and I don't know what vehicle he has but I definitely wouldn't try dropping the radiator level in a Land Rover Tdi engine. That's because the radiator is not the highest point in the system - the top of the head and thermostat housing is. If the system is not completely filled and free of air pockets (except for the expansion tank), you run a serious risk of overheating the head and, at best, blowing the head gasket or, even worse, warping the head.
Ian
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FollowupID: 388979

Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Friday, Oct 21, 2005 at 16:33

Friday, Oct 21, 2005 at 16:33
Ian thanks for the warning. That system as you describe as far as I know sounds like VL commodore system which i believe was the cause of them having a tendancy cracking heads. The vehicle I had was a 75 cruiser which afiik is the top of the system. In the older vehicles i owned many did not have expansion tanks and as long as I could see water I considerd them full
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FollowupID: 389518

Reply By: David from Engine Saver Low Water Alarms - Tuesday, Oct 18, 2005 at 08:10

Tuesday, Oct 18, 2005 at 08:10
Hi Guys,

I want to say that I completely agree with the advice given by Ian from Thermoguard Instruments.

On many vehicles nowadays the top radiator hose & thermostat housing are the highest point in the cooling system, so running a vehicle with low coolant level can easily cause an air lock and wreck the engine.

Modern radiators have quite small header tanks and the top hose forms a part of the coolant reserve above the cylinder head.

PATHFINDER:
Don't delay, change that water pump.
If the coolant level drops suddenly the temperature gauge may actually go down
and give you no warning as the sensor needs liquid around it to work properly.
Also make sure you flush the system at the same time.
Water pump seals are damaged by any impurities in the system.

Regards
David Jones
Enginesaver Low water Alarms
AnswerID: 134996

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