Cool runnings?

Submitted: Wednesday, Oct 19, 2005 at 16:06
ThreadID: 27384 Views:3538 Replies:3 FollowUps:7
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Hi all,

A week or so back I read a post that included some of Roachie's coolant temperature readings from his 'hot' TD42T Patrol. Can't find it again now, so I thought I'd start a new thread about similar findings.

A few months ago, a customer asked if I could rig one of my EGT gauges to also monitor coolant temperature, with a suitable mechanism to switch between the two sensors. [Roachie, we talked about this some time ago, as I recall - switching between thermocouples needs to be done with care to avoid errors in the readings.] As it was for the same engine as mine (Land Rover 300Tdi), I made up a prototype on my vehicle and then duly sent off a kit to a happy customer (well, two actually, one for his son as well. Both Land Rover owners - what a nice, well-adjusted family??) .

However, I didn't get around to actually fitting my coolant sensor to the thermostat housing until a couple of weeks ago, when we were in Darwin. Then we had to back-track to Mt Isa for a work assignment, so we got to try it out in some heavy duty conditions - towing a 2200kg tandem caravan in ambient temps up to 40-41C and sometimes into headwinds.

The coolant sensor confirmed that the thermostat opens at 88C, where it would sit happily while driving around town. Long idling at lights followed by 'robust' acceleration up to the speed limit would see it climb up to, say, 92C then settle down again. A day trip to Jabiru in the car saw it in the range 90 to 96C at 100-110 km/h in ambients around 35C, depending on acceleration, hills, etc.

The towing the 'van south to Katherine, Tennant Creek and on to Mt Isa saw some higher temps. The official maximum temps on these days was 36-37C but out on the highway our thermometer (with it's sensor poked out the rear door in the shadow of the spare tyre) recorded over 40C. In the hilly country between Darwin and Katherine around Hayes Creek, we peaked at 108C when I deliberately held full throttle up a long rise (EGT in the high 600s). For most of the 1600km trip we would have been running in the 94 to 104C range, with the rise and fall of the road clearly indicated by the movement of the coolant temperature.

A couple of points of interest (I hope):
. The standard coolant gauge reached it's 'normal' position (just below half-scale) at 88C and DIDN'T MOVE FROM THAT POINT, even when the actual temp was at 108C. [I've only ever seen the original gauge move above 'normal' twice, both times towing in VERY hot weather: once at the top of Bang Bang Jump-up on the Normanton to Cloncurry road on a 43C afternoon and the other on the Stuart Highway near Coober Pedy on a day that was officially 45C but we measured 47.9 'out the back door'. I shudder to think what the 'real' coolant temp was on those occasions...]
. The 'real' coolant temp moves around constantly when under heavy load (i.e. when the thermostat is fully open) and indicates headwinds and/or slight inclines before you'd otherwise notice them.
. I don't know how to do it without sacrificing my engine in the cause of R&D, but it'd be interesting to see what the thermocouple reads on loss of coolant - a sudden fall??
. Land Rover 300Tdi's are tough little b*gg*rs.

Hope this is of interest. Does any else have 'real world' readings from accurate instruments?
Ian
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Reply By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Wednesday, Oct 19, 2005 at 16:23

Wednesday, Oct 19, 2005 at 16:23
I could be wrong but I thought an engine especiaslly a diesal runs best when the coolant is just below boiling (after this the coolant fails to dissapate heat and things go pear shaped). this obviosly needs a safety margin as a vehicle that runs 120 deg at 18 deg temps will be in real trouble on the highway up north and the boiling point of a system running 50%ethelene glycol coolant and fully pressurised is in the order of 130deg. Many marginal systems dont start to boil until 30 sec after being turned off (unless you idle them down) if they boil as you go you have real problems and this is shown by the temp gauge rising and falling (temp goes up starts to boil lets off pressure from system which lowers boiling temp and temp comes down (albeit still in the way northward section of gauge)
AnswerID: 135265

Follow Up By: fisho64 - Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 at 00:53

Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 at 00:53
If it lowers boiling temp when the pressure comes down (which it does) this would make it boil more! But it does'nt lower the pressure, the radiator cap keeps the pressure at a constant, usually 14psi or below. so if it vents, it stays at 14.
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Follow Up By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 at 01:39

Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 at 01:39
yes but boiling more does not raise the boiling temp the same as a simmering pot of water is 100deg and a boiling violontly pot is still 100 deg and yes it does lower the pressure - pressur builds up to point which it releases and purges - if pressure is released then it also must be lowered.
And finally i didnt just make this up as it is exactly what happened to me on the way to stuffing the donk in my valiant
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Reply By: David from Engine Saver Low Water Alarms - Wednesday, Oct 19, 2005 at 18:56

Wednesday, Oct 19, 2005 at 18:56
Hi Ian

Years ago I owned a holden 1 tonne custom built campervan, 253 V8.
I was living in Far North Queensland and had over-heating problems.

To cut a long story short we fitted precision temperature gauges to both top & bottom radiator hoses to assess the radiator heat exchange efficiency.

This enabled us to accurately determine the effects of different cooling fans, ducting, different coolants, carburettor mixture, thermostats, and transmission coolers.

I can't remember any figures from back then, but 95 degrees celcius was not uncommon. However the use of the gauge in the bottom radiator hose was invaluable from a diagnostic point of view.

Regards
David Jones
AnswerID: 135309

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 at 07:28

Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 at 07:28
David,
I didn't previously know about your product and have just ordered one last night.......I know, everybody will say "not another friggin gadget!!!"
It's all very well to have all the temp senses, but not much use if all the coolant has disappeared!!
I am hoping the unit will be as easy to fit as your website shows. I didn't think to ask you for an EO discount (being a member and all) and I've already done the money transfer.....hahaha
Looking forward to receiving the unit and I will report my findings to all the EO family in due course.
Cheers
Roachie
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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff M (Newcastle) - Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 at 08:14

Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 at 08:14
Roachie and David,
Few years back I totally siezed a 3 month old Commodore V6 due to total loss of coolant.
I was trundling along the highway at 100km/h, temperature gauge all normal. When all the red idiot lights came up and the fire went out.
It had blown a heater hose clean off the water pump. (Those brilliant spring loaded hose clamps)
No steam, no water on the windscreen, no change in the temperature gauge. Just siezed the engine.
The fix? Brand new complete V6 from Holden. The old heads where purple and shaped like a banana when they came off. Never seen purple aluminium before!!

Geoff.
Geoff,

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Follow Up By: David from Engine Saver Low Water Alarms - Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 at 19:40

Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 at 19:40
Geoff M

Sad to say but that is exactly how I got into the Low Coolant Alarm business. (Except I was driving a Magna)
Those heater hoses are engine killers! (Just ask any E-series Falcon owner!)You know the one, heater hose hidden under the injection manifold, 2 cent spring clip, almost impossible to get to without a hoist.

I have survived many an engine overheat but sudden coolant loss left me stranded with a wrecked engine too.

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Reply By: kesh - Wednesday, Oct 19, 2005 at 20:27

Wednesday, Oct 19, 2005 at 20:27
Interesting thoughts Ian. The only time the temp. gauge on my disco (97tdi) moved above that "slightly below horizontal" was going up Moombie (Nth. of Tam. N. E. hgwy) when that horrible plastic plug atop the thermostat housing called it quits. Saw the needle approaching 10 o'clock, pulled up quick smart (luckily could) and was immediately confronted by a cloud of steam from under the bonnet. So it was actually working, but you have to keep an eye on those things. Luckily no damage done. I also think the disco has some advantage with its engine oil cooler out in the airstream.
Have heard also that the Toyo gauge (have one also) can give a bum steer in as much that dramatic loss of coolant and overheating is not indicated if the probe is not immersed.
But I do wonder about your "out the back door"on the move temp. readings? One thinks that the eddy effect of the heat output from the engine/transmission would tend to elevate the ambient temp. recorded by you.
Have operated earthmoving gear in temps. as you describe, torque convertors, transmission cases sizzling, fry an egg on top of the engine cowling yet all instruments (oil press./temps.)in the ok zone. This doesnt verify the accuracy of the gauge information of course, but we are talking about machines in the 1/2mill.$ range!
I suspect that when working at temperature borderlines,(high and low) machine performance owes much to the lubricity of our modern oils?
the kesh
AnswerID: 135323

Follow Up By: Ian from Thermoguard Instruments - Wednesday, Oct 19, 2005 at 23:03

Wednesday, Oct 19, 2005 at 23:03
Hi Kesh,

Fortunately, the plastics bungs in our thermostat housing and radiator had already been replaced by brass ones when we bought our '97 Disco second-hand in 2001.

Yes, I agree with your observation about our 'out the back door' ambient temps (was hoping no one would notice...). Just being lazy really - it's the probe we normally have inside the Chescold fridge in he back, to see how it's running - so it's a convenient way to do it. Will have to rig a recording thermometer with a sensor just behind the grill one of these days.

Re. your earthmoving equipment experience - thanks for that feedback. I would suspect, though, that this sort of equipment is designed (that is, radiator size, coolant capacity, fan capability, etc.) for high ambients (in open cuts pits, quarries, etc.) and NO air flow due to vehicle motion. Unlike automotive engines, where a good deal of the cooling capacity is provided by the air flow inherent in the forward motion of the vehicle.

This is evidenced by the fact that, on the trip mentioned, whenever we idled the engine for some minutes to drop EGT (and hence turbo bearing temperature) after highway running, the coolant temp would gradually rise into the 100s, even if it had been in the low 90s after coasting from 90km/h or so down to 50 km/h on the run into town.

By the way, our engine oil cooler (and I agree it's a great idea) is in the radiator header tank (driver's side) - does yours have a separate oil-to-air cooler as well/instead??

Ian
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Follow Up By: kesh - Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 at 09:06

Thursday, Oct 20, 2005 at 09:06
G'day Ian.
Yes, those poxy plastic bungs were replaced quick smart. Happened at about 50k. (we bought new) Dont mention warranty, what warranty? (2yrs,50k) and would have had similar replaced anyway.
After taking delivery, it has never been near a LR service since. Now 160k. only probs. been the bung, (2x 1/2" brass@$1.80), weep from rear pinion seal (1x $5.50), loose bottom rubber on RH front shock (tightened), failed non return valve to rear washer (replace with a bit of copper tube), coolant leaking from heater hose connection (clip tightened) "And it doesnt leak any oil!!"

The oil cooler is as yours, into the end tank of the radiator. This system though has to be better than the Toyo/Nissan/others set up whereby it is on the side of the engine block.

The Cat d7g which I have been operating will boil in the block (not radiator) if not given a good cooldown idling period. So as well as allowing the turbo to cool off (which I think happens pretty quickly) it stabilises the block temperature by removing saturated heat levels.
This machine also has transmission and hydraulic oil cooling.

I think that there could be plenty of 4wd. engines very stressed by temps. not recorded on the guage after switching off. (especially after ploughing through a few km. of dry sand with a C/T behind?) I believe even N/A diesels should be given a cooldown period.
the kesh


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