So will the Police Minister tell the truth?

Submitted: Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 19:01
ThreadID: 29623 Views:2166 Replies:10 FollowUps:38
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The Melbourne - Geelong road speed cameras will be turned on January 30th and we have been told that as is the case in NSW we will have speed camera warnings.

In NSW the speed camera warnings are for danger areas - 'Speed Camera Ahead' and then a speed camera around the corner. The Victorian Police Minister Tim Holding today announced the carmeras will operate and that the reason is the high death rate on the road. He told us there had been 10 since 2000. Interesting thing is that in his need to get the information out he completely overlooks the timespan of the period of the upgrade where the speed limit was frequently at 40kph and sometimes below for sections of the highway. The highway in it's current configeration has been open since it was completed in November 2002. Not the period he identified in his press release.

This morning just after Minister Holding was on ABC Radio 774, John from Geelong phoned and was extremely knowledgible of the statistics and research of the road. He told listeners that the road has the same ratings of roads in Europe that take traffic at 130kph with low accident ratings. John used to be a government employee working in the area of road and traffic management.

John helped listeners understand the mis-information we are fed by our government to justify their decisions. It was a pity that Minister Holding was not staying around as the original quote on the ABC was 20 deaths, unfortunately I have not been able to find a date that he quoted for that number in radio comment, but I believe it was before the mid 1990s.

Does anyone remember how many deaths there have been since the road re-opened in it's current form? I remember one accident causing a death and it was discussed on the forum. It was the accident where a car was pushed by another into a camera implacement beside the road but about 6-8 metres from the road. That camera pole now has Armco railing around it. Do you remember any others since?
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Reply By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 19:24

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 19:24
The whole speed thing is a heap of dingos kidneys - as most people who have lived, and driven, in other countries for a few years will tell you.

Of course there are greater risks in doing 280kph over 60kph - but 115kph over 100kph...? Let's try and get back to a sense of proportion here people.

"SPEED KILLS" - does it hell - bad driving kills

Mike Harding

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Reply By: Feral - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 20:17

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 20:17
Mike...I find your arguement simplistic and does not surprise me of the nature of replies you will get. Are you seriously suggesting that if you are up to 5 k's over the speed limit you would turn into a killer on the roads? If that is the case why do we have variable speed limits?
Also, why do one day on some roads you have a review of the speed limits and they go up? It's the same street with the same houses and anything else that surrounds it. It's because speed limits are an arbitary desicion based on certain factors.
And it is ridiculous to suggest that if you are NOT speeding you will be safe on the roads.

This is the main reason why government do what they do. They will be voted out of office if they decided to increase the severity of the driving test or getting your licence. We all have the attitude that 'I have they right to have a licence to drive a motor vehicle' So their only avenue is to enforce the law through penalties. It does not matter if you could not drive for nuts...you still get the same old simplistic test to get your licence.

Specifically talking about the Geelong road which is now a three lane highway ( going one way, of course) at it's minimum, it is rated at 100 Kph. It is as wide and clear of trees as an airfield and you are limited to 100 k's. Yet on the Princess Highway out to Warragul(2 lanes only) there are sections that have trees 30 to 50 metres from the road. Whats the speed limit...110 Kph.

Once again an arbitary decision made by authorities.
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Lyndon.
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 20:36

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 20:36
I can only assume I have totally failed to make my position on [most] Australian speed limits, and the enforcement policies surrounding them, clear?

Rather than repeat things I suggest you read other threads I have posted on this subject recently.

To summarise: I think the "Speed Kills" thing is a heap of dingos kidneys. I don't know how to be more clear?????

Mike Harding

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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 22:46

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 22:46
I think Mike meant that speed is not as high a contributory factor to road trauma that it is made out to be.

The Geelong road was 110kph in the mid/early 80's. The limit was reduced by the govt of the day in reaction to road trauma on the road. The decision weas taken this time around to keep the limit at 100 due to the volume of traffic the road carries, unlike the Hume wich has a lower overall traffic volume.

Mike I think your reference to feral dogs is confusing Feral mate. I thought you made it patently clear.
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Reply By: Glenn (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 20:40

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 20:40
Oh John,

What are you doing bringing politics onto this site...lol.

I may have misheard, but wasn't it said that the warnings about the speed cameras will only be there, on portable electronic billboards, until the cameras are activated?

Cheers

Glenn
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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 21:26

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 21:26
Tried to make it as apolitical as I could Glenn. I heard a deputy commissioner talkng this arvo about telling people they were there so am not sure of the portable ones. Of course you could be right Glenn - only in the lead up but that would hardly be honest to others that come a week later....

I have been amazed at the differential between vehicles in the same lane from vehicle to vehicle at the same speed on the indicators closer to Geelong.
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Follow Up By: Bonz (Vic) - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 22:50

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 22:50
John I can recall 3 in the past 12 months, one at the camera you mentioned, one near Pt Cook turnoff and one on the straight between Kororoit Ck Rd and the Ring Rd.

The portable billboards are many many of them there I saw 6 up and six on the way home this week, also as I got near a camera location the traffic that had just passed me drifted back towards me, driving aliong with the GPS saying 102 on cruise, not chaning more than 0.6kmh over the entire trip.

Those speed indicators are a joke theyre upto 4khm out one lane to the next
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Reply By: rolande- Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 21:18

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 21:18
G'Day JohnR,

I think the figure has now been revised to 10. I would also assume they count all accidents right into Geelong, which would include the tragic death of a stepfather and his two children being hit by a truck while turning right at the Corio Trotting track lights - in a 90 Kmh zone.

Also, two deaths with the drug crazed idiot who was driving the highway at 220 kmh at night a drove straight into the back of a van and pushed it into a power pole.

There are five of the ten already,

Regards

Rolande
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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 21:34

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 21:34
Rolande, the drug one was the one I was thinking of at the camera standard. Thanks for the reminder there.

The 10 includes right back to 2000 as it has been stated by the police deputy commissioner and the ministerial press releases since he spoke on radio 774 this morning. Obviously someone close thought it could be seen to be misleading.

I think in the same period there would have been more west of Geelong on the highway to Colac, but lets not start counting those.
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Follow Up By: rolande- Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 22:21

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 22:21
G'Day JohnR,

Agree with you on that. One of those "statistics" was a personal friend.

Many others are overseas tourists on their way BACK from the GOR.

Getting so bad I will not drive that road if possible on week-ends now.

Regards

Rolande
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Reply By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 21:35

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 21:35
"SPEED KILLS"

Statistics for the number of road deaths per 100,000 population...

Australia, with the mojority of the population restricted to 100/110kph... 9.5

Germany, with most of the population able to access roads with no speed limit... 10.4

I just bloody red "X"'d the page I got that from... I'll keep looking if anyone is interested...

AnswerID: 148166

Follow Up By: Steve - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 09:30

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 09:30
would be interested to see British stats. The pace is faster but they do generally stick to lane discipline and look in their mirrors now and then, instead of driving side by side at the same speed for k's on end. Also, the German stats show deaths to be more common which is inevitable at the high speeds they drive at. I wonder how the accident ratio is? Agree with Mike that although speed is a contributory factor, bad driving and the lack of education on TV, for instance. Driving at 160kph is one thing but minor transgressions on roads where the speed limit changes every 500m is blatant revenue raising. They don't put these speed traps in danger zones but at the bottom of hills especially if there's a bend in the road. As Nudenut says, they won't bring in gadgets to keep the speed down because of the revenue loss that would follow.
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Follow Up By: gramps - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 10:20

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 10:20
"where the speed limit changes every 500m"

Hmm Steve, don't know where you are but we've got exactly that on the Gt Western Ripoff, I mean Highway, through the Blue Mountains in NSW. That's not even counting the many roadworks zones.

I'll stick to Bells Line of Road and try not to contribute to the governments coffers :)))
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Follow Up By: Steve - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:51

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:51
That was one of the areas I had in mind. My job takes me all over the Sydney area incl Blue Mts and because it's often in unfamiliar territory, you really have to be on your toes, trying to follow a street directory and ever changing speed limits. If you work at the same place every day, and there's a camera enroute, you'd have to be a bit dopey to get caught.
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Follow Up By: gramps - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 13:02

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 13:02
hahahaha you're right there. But like the ditty they played on Hey Hey Its Saturday ...... "Folks are dumb where I come from". There must be a lot of those around here to keep one of those camera's going.

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Reply By: angler - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 22:25

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 22:25
It's a bit like saying guns kill people, you can put a loaded gun in a cupboard and it will never kill anyone. If someone gets it out then look out. People kill people.

Funny thing about the road deaths and the stats.

I don't know the latest however I do remember the NT was zero over the holidays. Funny, no speed limits there. Big mobs in NSW, lots of police too, mobs in Vic, same thing, Qld same again.

Is this a trend?

Pooley
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 22:47

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 22:47
The driving environment in the NT may be quite different to the bigger states. There's generally less traffic for a start and they only have a couple of major roads to maintain:))))))))
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 11:59

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 11:59
Hi Footloose,

So maybe it is the road quality that contributes to fatalaties? Had a recent press article saying it could contribute as much as 60%.

Kind regards
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Follow Up By: Member - Royce- Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:00

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:00
So the logic here is that speed kills. Lock it up in the cupboard. Just back from NT... lots of speed limits. It's just the outback open roads where some idiots travel too fast. Most still sit around the 110k mark... some a little faster. NT has got a very low population and lots of space.
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:13

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:13
G'day Royce,

Came back from NT recently as well and felt that that good roads didn't seems to bring out the boy racers. Sure they must have some but it just doesn't seem to translate into fatalities (so long as they don't have cannonball run competions).

It just amazes me that this state can keep up zeros through the holiday periods and can only put it down to good country roads.

Kind regards
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Reply By: Bonz (Vic) - Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 22:54

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 22:54
Do the crime, do the time
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Reply By: Member - Royce- Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 23:33

Thursday, Jan 12, 2006 at 23:33
Just got a speeding fine for doing 7 ks over the limit in Deer Park while travelling through Melbourne. Who's 'av thought that the the old girl could do that? Fair enough I reckon. Speed limits should be stuck to. If you break the law, pay the fine. Speed sure does kill. My wife is an ambo. Her experience... Speed kills. Bad driving kills. Fatigue kills. Booze kills. All the same. Cameras on every traffic light and restriction sign wil be the future. Eventually this conversation will be irrelevant, because a transponder in our vehicle will stop us speeding any time.
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 07:36

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 07:36
they can err could enforce all vehicle manufacturers to fit these transponders now if they were serious abou cutting the road toll....but they wont.......why?.....Revenue!!!!
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Follow Up By: gramps - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 10:24

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 10:24
Absolutely spot on Nudenut. Same as banning smoking or whatever. Too much revenue to be lost.
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Follow Up By: Member - Royce- Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:05

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:05
Won't be done for a while because of politics. Revenue would be up if accidents were reduced by a lot. We have to pay for hospitals and the cost of injury to the workplace etc. Okay.. revenue seems to be a pressure on pollies, but in real life the laws are made and administered by people who don't earn a cent from fines. Be real... would your local member really support cameras and fines based on income for the treasury... Just maybe the Treasurer himself or a couple of other finance ministers might consider it.. but come on... laws aren't made that way. Vote against them... If you were there, you would be making laws to make the roads safer. True?
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:07

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:07
OK so presume they can monitor our every move does that then shift the blame to them if you have an accident? - because you weren't speeding. I suggest there is a bigger cover up on the statistics of road accidents and not the least the contribution of road quality to an accident.

In QLD they were using some sub quality bitumen that was found to become slippery when wet and contributed to many accidents but that was not a reason for them to say that they were responsible for those accidents. Guess it was all of the reasons mentioned above.

Kind regards
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Follow Up By: Member - Royce- Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:13

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:13
That's the pressure you see. Governments ARE liable for accidents due to condition of roads etc. They have to come up with whatever they can to reduce the tolls.
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Follow Up By: Member - Royce- Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:15

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:15
Smoking is or will be banned in public places..
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:18

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:18
But we rarely (never) read in the papers, "Victim dies on some shoddy road that hasn't been properly maintained. The man was travelling below the speed limit and obeying all the rules. The government being resposible will now adequately compesate his widow."
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Follow Up By: gramps - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:24

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:24
Royce,

I meant a total ban on smoking i.e. you can't buy tobacoo products at all. If the government was really committed to stopping people smoking, that is the only way.

Can't see it happening, leaving civil liberties out of the equation, because the simple fact is it generates far more revenue than the cost impact on the Health system.
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Follow Up By: Member - Royce- Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:46

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:46
I understand. The real reason though is that prohibition doesn't work. They tried that in the US remember with alcohol. It doesn't work with any of the other drugs.

Crime then takes over.
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Follow Up By: Member - Royce- Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:50

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:50
But the point is you DO hear about the council or government being sued for not maintaining the road. You also hear about cars 'leaving the road' instead of 'idiot driving too fast while tired ran off road and wrapped around tree'.
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Follow Up By: gramps - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:53

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:53
Now Royce, you are trying to derail this discussion with facts :) That simply will not do LOLOLOL
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:59

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:59
I hear you and motoring associations I just don't hear it coming from the Gov - they seem to want to focus the attention away from this issue, it is just that this whole annoys the C R A P out of me. Not because I speed (OK maybe a little now and then) but because it becomes such an emotional one sided presentation. Would like to see a little more of fuel excise fixing some of these black spots and country roads.

Kind regards
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Follow Up By: gramps - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 13:13

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 13:13
Beatit,

They do use the fuel excise to fix black spots and country roads ---- they install speed cameras on them :) A tad cynical but not that far from the truth.
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 13:16

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 13:16
G'day Gramps,

If they used all the excise on cameras they could probably get them for $2 each on a bulk discount and have them every 100 meters - think of the potential in that.

Kind regards
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Follow Up By: gramps - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 13:32

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 13:32
Ssssh Beatit, I hope Morris Iemma and his cronies in NSW are'nt monitoring this thread. You've given them the solution to their budget problems LOLOLOL
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Follow Up By: Nudenut - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 14:22

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 14:22
have you heard about the camera that recognises alpaha-numeral number plates....not for trucks but for cars.....and ones that aint speeding ...

this info will be used and checked against motor vehicle records to see if your car is registered...no rego and you'll get a bluey in the post?
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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 14:35

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 14:35
Big brother is always looking but it seems only to nab you. Would be nice if you got a call saying we got some low life on film trying to break into your would you like to press charges - yeah right!

Actually I'm surprised that number plare technology hasn't kept up with these development. Would like a mini computer screen that shows my real plate except for when it feels a radar at which time it automatically changes to that of Harold Scrubie's plate OR a holographich plate that shows my plate looking straight on but from a camera angle looks like that of HS.

Kind regards
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Follow Up By: gramps - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 17:57

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 17:57
Make of this what you will

SMS warnings

I don't even want to comment on people using SMS while driving etc
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Follow Up By: gramps - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 18:00

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 18:00
Sam's got the right idea. Issue all drivers with a lamb chop :))))

link text
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Follow Up By: Member - Royce- Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 22:51

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 22:51
I live 4 X 50k outside a capital city. I'm a country boy. I travel Oz all the time. The roads are so much better than in the 50s.... but more than that. The roads are actually better than 10 years ago. Sometimes people set themselves up with a drum to beat and don't realize that what they are saying just isn't true.

Speed cameras, fines are all part of trying to get some sort of control over the carnage on the roads. If the same number of people that have died on our roads in the last few weeks were Aussiesin Iraq... the country would be protesting in the streets.

Instead we get hot under the collar about attempts to slow the traffic down to a reasonable level. Have you noticed how crazy it is on the roads? Most people doing the right thing, but 'richard craniums' cutting in and out, speeding, tailgating etc.

If you speed, expect to pay a fine. Which reminds me... I had better pay mine tomorrow.

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Follow Up By: Member - Beatit (QLD) - Monday, Jan 16, 2006 at 10:54

Monday, Jan 16, 2006 at 10:54
G'day Royce,

I'm with you on reducing the road toll - as it just unacceptable. I'm also against people using our roads as their private race track. It also seems to me that people under the influence (of whatever these days - booze,drugs or phones) are getting off way to light. Equally annoying are those that can't show some common courtesy on the road.

Not sure I'm with you on the roads issue but we may be talking different things here. My issue is that a good quality free way is much better suited to todays cars than some urban roads. It would be much safer to drive on these than say the Pacific Highway where people get killed all the time.

Thanks for the conversation and have a great week.

Kind regards
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Reply By: govo - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 11:44

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 11:44
IF GOVERMENTS SPENT MORE DOLLARS ON ROADS AND LESS ON THEMSELVES AND STOP GIVING IT TO CORRUPT OVERSEA'S GOVERMENTS THEN THE ROAD DEATHS WOULG STOP...SPEED KILLS..CPAP IT DOES..1950'S SURFACE ON ROADS DO
AnswerID: 148266

Follow Up By: Member - Royce- Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:08

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:08
Wow! You are hot under the collar. How do Governments spend money on themselves?.... Hmmm yep.... I just thought of a way. All this advertising.

I remember the 1950's.... mate the roads were SO MUCH WORSE THEN! We have double lanes, protective barriers, better shoulders... SO MUCH BETTER. I remember the Prince's Hwy from Gippsland to Melbourne was pretty much the same as the smallest sealed backroad of today.

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Follow Up By: govo - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 22:37

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 22:37
Qoute...We have double lanes, protective barriers, better shoulders... SO MUCH BETTER

Drive 50 klm outside any major city in Oz ( City's hold more votes ) and you will not see the above.
There was a report on current affiar last year that stated if governments cut 5% of pollie's perks there would be $37 ooo,ooo extra to spend on road funding and this is just 5% remember...hmmm but wait...they might spend it on more bloody camera's...o well you can't win...
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Reply By: Alan H - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:32

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:32
Hi all. I jusT spent heaps of the bosses time writing what I reckoned was a good response to this thread and when trying to post got a"not logged on message"!!!

Can't be bothered rewriting it now but as far as I'm concerned stupidity coupled with ignorance, arrogance and incompetence kills far more than going a few k's over the limit.
Bad policing has got a lot to do with it as well.
Try this site for a good look at arguements against the policing of speed limits only and the ignoring of all other road rules.
If governments spent more on roads design and in WA particularly, stopped planting bloody traffic lights at every insignificant road junction and installed decent sized roundabouts there may be less deaths.

http://www.roadsense.com.au/main.html

Alan H.
AnswerID: 148274

Follow Up By: Steve - Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 18:56

Friday, Jan 13, 2006 at 18:56
Some very interesting info in there Alan. Even if we don't take the stats literally (stat manipulation) there are some excellent and disturbing points. Some of the driver behaviour we all see on a daily basis at times defies belief and for my money is a greater factor than speed alone.
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