Help me understand 3litre GU hand grenades

Submitted: Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 16:38
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So is it the mass air sensor failing which in turn creates huge boost to the cylinders?????
If this is the case wouldnt we wonder why all of a sudden we have another 40hp at the rear wheels....
When once apon a time we would need 4th gear to climb our favourite hill on the way home from work at a consistant 95kmh,,, and all of a sudden we can do it in 5th at 110kmh...
Or is there more to it than just boost alone???
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Reply By: Darian (formerly Banjo) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 16:49

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 16:49
Hell Vox...... doesn't it give us a sense of value for thoroughly researched design in the modern motor - they are generally so damned complex with their high power, low consumption and low emissions - unless they test and evaluate the whole bloody lot carefully as a complete unit in the design stage, we suckers find out the hardway later ......... its a gamble....nearly bought one myself ....... took the Jack instead..... better motor at least it turns out......in a car that nobody wants to sell here anymore !
AnswerID: 149165

Follow Up By: Leroy - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:02

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:02
Jack diesels have thier problems too!!! Do a search here but more so on Overlander. You may be surprised.

Leroy
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Follow Up By: Darian (formerly Banjo) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:13

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:13
Wouldn't suggest they don't have problems - that would be silly - but they haven't been exploding in droves (as many others don't too :-0)
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 19:34

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 19:34
To suggest that Jackaroo (Isuzu) diesels are in the same league as the notorious Nissan 3.0 is just not supported by any facts.

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Follow Up By: Darian (formerly Banjo) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:00

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:00
I claim no such knowledge - they might well be in different leagues Gerhard - to support my contention re design, isn't it interesting that the Jack motor was a quantum leap for TD's at the time, but that leap brings "issues" with it, such as real problems for starting in cold conditions (to the point) where they had to supply 2 batteries in them, just to start the buggers)....
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 09:04

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 09:04
It's true that the Jackaroo was the first common rail diesel to be commonly available in 1998, and it had very impressive power and torque compared to its rivals.

It's also true that there were cold starting problems which were traced to using oil that was too thick, preventing injectors from injecting fuel. An attempted cure was the dual battery setup which allowed longer cranking time before it wouldn't start!

When I bought the Monterey new in 98, I was a bit sad that I couldn't get it with the diesel, but I wanted the TOD so I finished up with the petrol 3.5 V6.

Now I am happy as I haven't had any problems with the rig, I just feed it the fuel it likes a bit too much. Having read about the problems people have with their diesels of various makes I think the petrol is a more pleasant experience all round.
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Reply By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 16:56

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 16:56
My understanding of it, is that it all happens fairly quickly and without any prior warning. That means you're driving along with no obvious differences and then BANG!

In Pud's case (see my recent post from about an hour ago), he said he'd been driving with a large trailer carting his furniture from Yass to Goulburn. He was on his way back to yass with empty trailer and they saw another Patrol blowing lots of smoke (not sure what type of Patrol it was). He commented to someone on the UHF...."Geez I hope mine is blowing smoke like that"....answer come back : "No mate, yours hasn't got any smoke".......Well Murphy struck within several seconds after that ...... BUGGAR!!!
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Follow Up By: gramps - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:09

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:09
Are you sure it's not contagious then :))))
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Reply By: Browser - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 16:59

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 16:59
Hi Voxson,

I don't want to start a huge debate on the Nissan 3.0litre TD but as an observation there have been 3 posts on ExplorOz this year for blown engines.

Post 29790 17/1/2006 Pud & Barb 2000 Series II
Post 29720 15/1/2006 Jorgejhandel 07-07/2003 Model
Post 29396 5/1/2006 ACDC 2001 Model, 170,000km's

That's at least 3 in 12 days on a site that has 1,055 members and I'm not sure how many visitors!!!!!

I had been looking at a Patrol as a potential vehicle for myself but I'm staying clear of the 3.0 Litre. It's seems to be a risky option.

regards,

Browser
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:19

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:19
I forgot to mention that the blokes at Goulburn Nissan also said that Pud's is the 2nd Nissan they've had blown-up THIS YEAR (ie: in the past 17 days).
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Follow Up By: Brew69(SA) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 19:53

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 19:53
i saw a 2005 current shape blow up late last year. fixed they say????
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Reply By: flappa - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:04

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:04
More to it.

I dont remember the exact problem , cause I'm not a mechanic , but , it was something like , not enough oil capacity , number 4 piston wasn't getting enough lub , galleries to small ?? , and number 4 piston going by byes.

Oil capacity was increased , large oil galleries and different designed piston.
AnswerID: 149171

Follow Up By: Member - Geoff M (Newcastle) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:18

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:18
That'd explain the 2000 - 2001 models.
What about the 2003 model mentioned above?

Geoff.
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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 19:35

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 19:35
Hi Geoff,

The original post said he saw some oil under the engine. Either the block got puntured (unlikely) or the perhaps the sump plug wasn't tight after the serveice only 75km earlier!!!

Either way, its unlike any previous 3L failure and would be the first series III failure to date reported from an owner, unlike the multitude of seriies II owner reported failures so far (and climbing).

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Captain

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Follow Up By: Member - Geoff M (Newcastle) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 20:50

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 20:50
Fair call Captain,
With oil on the deck and 75km out from a service, loose sump plug fits.

Geoff.

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Reply By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:15

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:15
The maximum boost is controlled by the actuator Voxson. When the pressure gets to a certain point it allows the exhaust gas to bypass the turbo to keep to the set pressure - on my TD4.2I it is just over 10 psi or about 0.7 bar. If the actuator fails you may have it stick open/open too early or I guess closed.

I am not sure if that diagnosis sounds correct for a sudden increase in boost, but it makes me even happier to have a boost gauge fitted. Further to that a friend calling this afternoon told me how he had the pipe between the turbo and the intercooler come undone recently to have another fitted up again in Berri SA. The boost gauge would have shown that immediatly reather that drive without an aircleaner for a while.... :-( Dealer problem in Melbourne one would think
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Follow Up By: Member - Captain (WA) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 19:45

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 19:45
Hi John,

The actuator on the 3L turbo adjusts the variable vanes, there is no bypass of exhaust gases.

When the revs are low, hence boost is low, the turbo vanes have a greater angle to spool up quicker. As the revs rise and the boost rises, the actuator changes the angle of the turbo vanes to decrease the available boost.

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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:54

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:54
Thanks for the comment Captain. Had written the 4.2 to be like the 3.0 in the actuator, sorry. The directional vanes in the inlet can still stick with a faulty actuator still though. Bonz had a problem in Broken Hill last year or at least one the way there, with NO boost, I think it was.

On reading a bit more I reckon I better warn my friend that lost his hose to the intercooler...
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Reply By: Member - David 0- Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:41

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 17:41
The problem is defined like this

Piston failure due to overheating

Possible root cause= poor bottom end lube- fixed now

Engines still failing but not as many in newr Patrols

Possible root cause= overfueling

Sticking more diesel into an engine (richer mix) creates much more heat and hence could be the reason for the failures.

Other possible causes = turbo overboost due to actuator problems

Thats the way I see it, but of cause it is a complicated problem distilled to a few simple answers- I could be dead wrong.
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Follow Up By: dieselup - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:11

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:11
mine used to go astray at times and blow turbo hoses off
usually at really bad times -going down the freeway with a truck behind us!
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Follow Up By: Leroy - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:51

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:51
dieselup, check your MAF sensor. Blowing the hose off is a sign that this is a prob.

Leroy
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Follow Up By: Kiwi Kia - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 07:51

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 07:51
A rich mixture usually takes heat away from an engine ! Are you sure that this is causing over-heating?
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Follow Up By: Member - David 0- Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 09:45

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 09:45
If it were a petrol engine you would be right. In a diesel rich mixture creates more heat.
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Reply By: cokeaddict - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 18:21

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 18:21
My cousin is workshop controller at a Nissan dealer in Sydney, He told me that Nissan Head Office would replace the "Block" complete in the event of a failure to 3ltr motors. Heads and turbo's would be checked and fixed if applicable, So you get a new block with your old top end if it can be used. They will NOT replace complete motors. They do this to save costs on the workshops rebuilding the old motor (if it could be saved). Remember guys, the dealer bills Nissan for their labour costs to do any warranty work, so its much quicker to do an "R & R" (remove and replace) than to fork out hours of labour costs to the dealers for each engine failure rebuild.
He also told me that Nissan has tightened up on warranty claims, especially on early series 1 and 2's, he pointed out that service history will decide weather or not Nissan come to the party. So basically that means.... if you skipped a service or 2, your on your own. In my opinion, that is a fair call even though they now the engines are faulty, after all, its in their servicing and parts where they make their money, not in selling the cars.

Ange
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Reply By: scottcamp - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 19:11

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 19:11
I still cannot understand why Nissan did not do a recall like they did in the UK. We have no reported failures of the ZD30 engine. It might have caused Nissan work and time at the start but the problem is now gone and their reputation intact.

As for the reported 2003 model, it looks more like a issue with the last service. Rightly so we assume it must be the piston failure, but we should not forget engines do fail for other reasons. Looking on all the forums i have yet to see ONE single 2003 onwards patrol fail, and i mean first hand not a mate of mates little brother 2003 blew up. Hands up who has a 2003 + patrol which has blew up with the same problem as the older models. I am not saying they might not blow up as they could still be too new, but looking back on the early 2000 failures they had been reported in large numbers by the time the car was 3 years old, so where are all the 2003 failures?

Yes i think Nissan made a big mistake keeping the early 3.0l on the road but its done now. Unfortunately for the people who own the early patrol it is almost certain it will blow up. But until i hear of firsthand reports of new models failing i think we should stop comparing the new models with the old.
AnswerID: 149206

Follow Up By: Member - Bill S (NSW) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 19:55

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 19:55
A problem so EASY fixwd BUY A TOYOTA.

BILLS
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Follow Up By: Outnabout David (SA) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:37

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:37
or fitting a fuel saving device...........lol
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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 22:06

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 22:06
a Bitch one isn't it David?
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Reply By: Member - Geoff M (Newcastle) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:05

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:05
Hi Voxson,
Didn't have time earlier to throw my 2.2 cents worth into the conversation, here goes my slant.
The notion of sensors and CPU's is what I do for a living. My stuff is embedded systems software for industrial control.
Different applications but fundamentally the same idea, pull some sensors into the controller, make some decisions and drive some outputs. Whilst keeping the whole show on the rails and away from damage.

My take on the idea of the MAF Sensor being the root cause of the blowups is this,

The MAF Sensor (MAFS) feeds into the Engine Management (EM). The EM controls boost, injection duration and injection timing among other things.

If the MAFS was the root cause it would be very easy to fix with about 6 lines of code and a sub-routine in the EM. A significantly cheaper solution than a mass engine swap out aka, Europe. Basically swap out the EM in about 30 minutes at a cost price to Nissan of definitely less than $100.00 per unit.

In software speak you'd do something like the following,

if MAF Sensor == good then
go for it;
if MAF Sensor == bad then
run get home sub-routine and record error code;

get home sub-routine:
minimum boost;
fixed injection duration;
fixed injection timing;

Basically you'd restrict the engine to enough boost, fuel and power to drag its empty carcase home.

For me, if it was the MAF Sensor causing the failures fixing it forever in every 3.0L shouldn't involve an engine transplant.

Hope that makes sense,

Geoff.
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AnswerID: 149221

Reply By: Leroy - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:59

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 21:59
Voxson,

I'm surprised you're asking a question like this after buying a new vehicle! Are you not happy with the purchase? I notcied you were advertising your dtronic. Were you not happy with the performance?

Leroy
AnswerID: 149237

Reply By: Voxson (Adelaide) - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 23:09

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 23:09
Well Leroy...
I spose its like this....
I thought all the blowing up stuff was behind the 03 model then i start hearing about later ones going...
So i am going to probably fit a boost gauge for safety reasons...

What i have noticed with the 3litre is that it is absolutely CRAP for rock climbing because of its low down LACK of torque...
I was spoilt with the 4.2 i had previous....
The 3 litre with a manual is useless for extreme terrain...
It cant climb steep rocks without serious clutch punishment..
AnswerID: 149258

Follow Up By: scottcamp - Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 23:59

Tuesday, Jan 17, 2006 at 23:59
Hi Voxson

I hope the survey I have initiated will help answer the question on the later cars. Because as yet I have heard of NO first hand account of any later car blowing up plenty of my uncles best mate knows a man who knows a man. So please take the time to fill in the survey.
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Follow Up By: Bilbo - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 01:16

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 01:16
It staggers me that people that buy 4WDs, don't look at power curves before they buy a vehicle. They're simple to grasp.

If a 4Wd drive is purchased for towing or "extreme" rock crawling it needs as much power and torque as it can muster, and low down the RPM range. As low as possible.

So why buy a turbo diesel that, sure, produces a goodly amount of both of the above, but at 75% of it's RPM range.

The old Nissan TD42 had good torque at low revs and so does the turbo Cruiser.

The 3.0 litre Nissan engine is a bit like buying a high powered sports car - all short stroke, all revs and only really suitable for driving solo on a Freeway. The rest of the car is good, tough 4WD stuff, but that engine...........woeful.

Right car, wrong motor.

Can someone build me truck with the turbo Yota motor with a GQ Nissan running gear and driveline - PLEASE?

Bilbo
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Follow Up By: Voxson (Adelaide) - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 08:02

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 08:02
If you are assuming i didnt do my homework you are wrong...
The Nissan 3litre with a dtronic claims 395nm @ 1500rpm...
I know most companies inflate their figures but i wasnt to know how damn hard this vehicle would be to start moving with the pressure of a 1foot rock in front of my tyre on a 35degree climb....
Probably if i had of bought the auto it would have been perfect...
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Follow Up By: Voxson (Adelaide) - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 08:03

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 08:03
oops.. I meant to say 390nm...
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Follow Up By: Outbacktourer - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 09:06

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 09:06
"The 3.0 litre Nissan engine is a bit like buying a high powered sports car - all short stroke, all revs and only really suitable for driving solo on a Freeway. The rest of the car is good, tough 4WD stuff, but that engine...........woeful.

Right car, wrong motor. "

You forgot the "in my humble opinion" part.

FWIW, haing owned one for the past four years, I personally don't share your opinion.
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Reply By: snow - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 11:53

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 11:53
No neither do I as I am very impressed with my Nav...that said however, I don't indulge in rock climbing activities so not fair to compare eh.
AnswerID: 149360

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