100 series rear brakes and mud

Submitted: Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 19:43
ThreadID: 29850 Views:2560 Replies:9 FollowUps:16
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We got stuck in a downport on a country road a few months ago and destroyed the rear discs on our 100 series. The road was closed whilst we were on it and we had no option but to keep going. I live in the bush so I know that wrecking dirt roads in the wet is not appreciated, but it really was a cloudburst and turned the road into an absolute quagmire in a very short period of time. Had new DBA rotors fitted in Alice Springs and the mechanic said muddy roads destroying rear brakes on 100 series is a common occurence. All up cost was only $400 and I didn't give it any more thought until I read the latest Westprint newletter. (I'd provide a link but I get an error saying that the link doesn't exist??) It talks about incidences of vehicles brake pads wearing out when driven over muddy roads. I've searched the archives but I haven't found anything on this at all. Anyone out there with a 100 seen this before?

Andrew
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Reply By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 20:13

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 20:13
yep mud chews out brakes reeel quick just ask any minesite mechanic. Not restricted to 100 series. I tis why i just shake my head when i see posts of people getting excited that it is raining and they are going mud playing (brakes are only one thing mud stuffs up)
AnswerID: 149471

Reply By: Jarse - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 20:38

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 20:38
What's a downport?
AnswerID: 149476

Follow Up By: Eric from Cape York Connections - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 20:52

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 20:52
Opposite to an upport.

All the best
Eric
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Follow Up By: Willem - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 21:04

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 21:04
Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!
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Follow Up By: Member - Barry W (VIC) - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 00:22

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 00:22
When one reaches there destination and there is nothing left than toooo
" Down Port "
Keep Smil'n
Bazza
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Follow Up By: atoyot - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 10:43

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 10:43
I'm still trying to work out how missing the "u" and hit a 't' too late. Maybe I had downed a few too many Wild Turkeys; perhaps I should've cracked open the Grandfather port instead.

Andrew
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Reply By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 21:47

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 21:47
Hi Andrew ,

Last July we got caught in a downpour of 2 inches in 24 hours in the Pilbara . The track was a series of interconnected mud holes as we battled to reach higher ground. My 100TD's rear pads and discs were 5000 klm old at that point . In 10 klm they were buggered - metal on metal .

There was nothing left of the pads and the discs were chewed up . We had to clamp off the rear brake line and then bleed off the fluid at the rear brakes , because they kept binding up , even when I was not braking . I got the pads replaced in Pt Hedland and the discs replaced when I returned to Sydney .

They must be a really crap design because there was five other cars with us and none had the same problem ( no other 100's but two Prados and a Troopy so it's not a Toyota problem , it's a 100 Series problem )

I carry a spare set of rear pads now .

Cheers ,

Willie .
AnswerID: 149496

Follow Up By: Billowaggi - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 23:16

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 23:16
Hang on a minute, rear axle and brake set up on a Troopy is identical to 100 series , also Prado very similar. Think you are just unlucky.
Regards Ken.
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Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 12:37

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 12:37
Hi Ken ,

Yes we thought along the same lines , but since then , I have heard other reports of 100's having this problem , but no other types .

I think they might have some kind of design "feature " which actually feeds the mud into the pad area .

It's a mystery .

Cheers ,

Willie .
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Follow Up By: Billowaggi - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 18:52

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 18:52
Hi Willie I think that the guy below that works on a mine site may be on the money, something to do with rim offset, mind you my 79 series has 100 ser GXL steel rims I have done plenty of mud and wet gravel and never had a problem.
Regards Ken.
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Reply By: STEVE069 - Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 23:35

Wednesday, Jan 18, 2006 at 23:35
Hi all, I work up in the mines and yes if it rains 100s rear brakes are the first to wear out. its because of the rim ofset it leaves the calliper fulley exposed to the mud from the front wheel. We replace rear pads at just over half worn, the vehicles get a safty check every month but if it rains they will go from half worn to steel in two days or so. On the tray backs and pc the calliper is more coverd by the rim (talking split rims).

Steve
AnswerID: 149519

Reply By: sjp - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 08:12

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 08:12
gawd first its snapping front diffs now its chewing disc pad s out with a bit of mud ,was /is looking at buying a base model(only one i can find without carpet)but the more i scan the net the more probs i find with the 100 series stevo the mine have any problems with the diffs
AnswerID: 149548

Follow Up By: atoyot - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 12:47

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 12:47
SJP, I still wouldn't rule out a poverty pack 100. The problems that you read about are spread across thousands of these things, so I don't think that they are any worse than any other vehicle out there. Having said that, I'd be a lot more worried with any of the ZD30 Nissans, as they seem, at least anecdotally, to be more representative of engine failures than just about anything else. All of these reported issues should be noted, but should also be put into perspective in relation to how many affected in relation to how many out there (as well as other variables, such as driver, conditions, usage etc....) In computing terms, Mean Time Before Failure (MTBF) ratings are useful in determining potential hardware failures. Wouldn't MTBF figures for vehicles be interesting!

I've had no problems with diffs, gearboxes etc, and that doesn't mean I won't, but simply that it hasn't happened to mine. Add that to the thousands of others with no problems and compare it to the numbers of people who have had problems. Statistics is a very interesting subject, and it certainly comes into play when the discussions turn to inherant problems amongst vehicle models.

Andrew
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Reply By: fatz - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 09:04

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 09:04
Andrew, have a 100 series standard diesel and have been through lots of mud and water. in 80,000k's I have had no issues with the rear discs or pads. I replaced the pads about 40,000k's ago. I have the ROH Trak 2 (white 8 spoke) rims on and wonder if this makes any difference? It may let them clean out easier. The only thing I do have dramas with is the handbrake (the one on the car, not the one in the passanger seat) it needs to be adjusted regularly as the shoes wear quickley with the dust and mud that builds up in there.

Have had no issues with diff either, and it gets heaps!

Mick
AnswerID: 149563

Follow Up By: atoyot - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 12:19

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 12:19
Mick, that's in interesting thought about your rims being different. I've a mate who just put those rims on his Troopy, so I'll have to check out the difference between the 100s steel wheels (not IFS wheels). I'll also admit that my handbrake needs adjustment every service (I'm not talking about the biological handbrake either - I'll leave that alone, especially the servicing part!). It's interesting how at service time, the Toyota people ALWAYS report the condition of the brake pads, particularly the rears.

My 100 is a 1HZ GXL with 105,000k on it and the brakes are the only problem I've had with it. If we didn't strike the wet wheather at Louth, I'm sure they'd still be OK. No problems with any diffs, gearboxes, Waeco's, Hiclones or anything else. Oh, the clutch judders a bit when cold, even after a warranty replacement, but that's about it.

Andrew
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Follow Up By: Leroy - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 14:51

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 14:51
Mick you mentioned that the hand brake needs to be adjusted regulary as the 'shoe' wear quickly. Does this mean you have drums on the rear? If so this would explain why you have no probs compared to the disc rearends.

Leroy
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Follow Up By: fatz - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 15:13

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 15:13
Nope Leroy, It's a disc brake rear end. The hand brake shoes work in the inside of the disc, bit like a drum with a disc on the outside.

Mick
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Follow Up By: Leroy - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 15:14

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 15:14
yep, know where you're coming from.

Leroy
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Reply By: atoyot - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 11:09

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 11:09
According to the newsletter, a number of vehicles suffered the same problem, but that there were a few more 100s than anything else. That may well be because 100s were more numerous in this particular group; don't know. Anyway, I have to stress that the muddy conditions were extreme, and the road surface was gritty red mud (Cober to Louth). Steering had no effect whatsoever, and it was just a case of trying to keep the front wheels on one side of the road crown and the rears on the other, so it wasn't just a muddy road. We also had some damage to the tailgate when I opened it as I didn't realise that the mud blast from the road forced the alloy tread on the Kaymar carrier up an inch or two, cutting the clearance to the opened tailgate. The article also mentioned that 80's brakes were susceptible as well.

To my mind, and correct me if I'm wrong, if the disc caliper is on the front side of the disc, grit will collect more readilly than if the disc is on the rear side of the disc. Gravity would take care of that to some extent. The article also mentions that Toyota have a fix that most dealers don't even know about, so it seems to be a fairly isolated problem in spedific conditions. I'll try to post the link again. Actually, there is another link that is a bit of a follow up on this; interesting reading along the lines of what I was thinking. I might chase up Toyota to see if anyone knows about the fix.

Andrew
AnswerID: 149591

Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 12:48

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 12:48
Thanks Andrew ,

Those links are very interesting . I will ask Traction 4 ARB if they know of any modification that can be made to overcome the problem .

Willie .
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Reply By: Member - Stephen L- Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 14:23

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 14:23
Hi Andrew,
Last July my group had similar problems. We had 9 vehicles in my group and 6 of us all suffered with rear brake damage from mud and water on the Birdsville Track. It was not restricted to Toyota's. There were 2 80 series, 2 Pajero's 1 Disco and 1 Rodeo. When we had them all repaired in Alices Springs. Paul from Country Diesel said that rear brake damage was a problem with all rear disc vehicles. When we were waiting at Mungerannie 3 vehicles turned up. all with metal to metal on their rear disco (they were 2 new Patrols and 1 Range Rover)

One of the 80 series in my group had just fitted new pads to his Toyota the day before we left and he could not beleive it when he heard that great sound of metal to metal

Regards

Stephen
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AnswerID: 149609

Follow Up By: atoyot - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 23:01

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 23:01
Stephen, at least I know I'm not alone then. The Rodeo is interesting; I might be assuming something here, but I thought they were drum rears. I spose that if the mud is bad enough, they could stuff drums anyway. DJ Automotive in Alice did mine and they used DBA rotors. I saw somewhere the other day that DBA will throw in free pads with disc purchases, so that seems to be the cheaper alternatve than original rotors and the genuine original Toyota price.

Andrew
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Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L- Friday, Jan 20, 2006 at 19:58

Friday, Jan 20, 2006 at 19:58
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for your reply. Because of all the water and mud mixed together, the water was very abrasive. Apart from the brake damage, we also had other vehicle related problems because of the water and mud. Even through the Simpson when we met other people, every other group had some type of vehicles brake problems from the wet conditions.

Stephen
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Reply By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 15:36

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 15:36
Andrew ,

I have just spoke to the head of servicing at Traction 4 ARB Northside (Sydney ) .

He says that since 4WDs got ABS braking , rear brakes have only lasted about half the distance they used to . He says the problem is made worse on the 100 Series because they have electric pump brakes instead of booster , so that more pressure can be applied .

Apparently the two earlier model Prados with me on the trip had normal booster brakes and less biass towards the rear brakes . He reckons this rear bias , the pump system , together with the mud on the discs and pads is what causes the very quick demise of the rear brakes on the 100 .

I am a mechanical clutz , so I hope I have relayed accurately what he told me .

Cheers ,

Willie .
AnswerID: 149617

Follow Up By: atoyot - Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 23:12

Thursday, Jan 19, 2006 at 23:12
Thanks for that, Willie; it all sounds right to me. Better to be a mechanical clutz than a clutzy mechanic :^)

Like those mentioned in the Westprint article, I would have hardly used the brakes in the 100 odd k of gritty porridge that we drove in, so most of the damage would have been from the build up of crud, I suspect being blasted up from the front wheels. I've seen some vehicles around with mudflaps just in front of the rear wheels, so I guess that if they go in a fair way, they may stop some of the blast from the fronts. Come to think of it, they could even help with chipping of rear tyres as well. I know weight over the rear end exacerbates rear tyre wear, but I'm almost certain that some of the chipping that you more often see on rear tyres could be from the fronts throwing up rocks. Maybe not.....

Andrew
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