Sydney BioDiesel - off and running!

Agree.... but I think that we need to show the govt that alternative fuels are taken seriously by the public.

I don't think that biodiesel needs to cost what it does - that price is in place because the govt has to keep things on an even keel in regards to the fuel companies' expectations of them.

When fossil fuels finally become so ridiculously expensive that they are not a viable purchase any more, at least biodiesel will still be available in some form or ather - for eons to come. Petroleum will, I gather, be one day replaced in total by ethanol.

Ok, biodiesel maybe our only source in the years ahead. Let Johnne at it and the price will go well above what it is now.

Be nice to see what your thoughts are in the weeks to come after you start using it.

just to clear up a couple of points
John Howard or the government doesnt control the cost of Biodiesel or mineral diesel. Both are taxed at 38.2 cents per litre

Switching to biodiesel isn't about the savings - it's about the use of a non-fossil fuel.

Unless you get significant savings then I and most others would not change to bio diesel. Then when you away from a bio bowser you have to put in regular diesel then you will have fuel filter clogging problems again. Just not worth the hassel. Also I'd prefer to use a quality fuel than risk my engine. It's a bit like ethanol in your petrol. Why risk damage to your engine to save 2c/l and be 'environmentally friendly' ? Not worth the chance.

Leroy

you will not have fuel filter problems from a few tanks of fossil fuel.
There is no hassle - I do it all th etime.
B100 is a much better lubricant and solvent - much better for your engine, so long it is not is too bad a shape already.

Not at all like Ethanol in your petrol.

It was the ananolgy....

Leroy

Also why is it your filter(s) get clogged only when you change from normal diesel to bio initially and you mention you run a few tanks of normal diesel then go back to bio with no probs! This doesn't make sense. You would expect to have filters clogging up all the time when changing between fuels.

Leroy

it makes a lot of sense ... the sedimentation happens over time in the fuel system when using fossil diesel.

when you first fill the tank with biodiesel the cleaning effect of the biodiesel begins and pretty quickly cleans out the fuel lines.

if your fuel lines are natural rubber and perished, they may well suffer too (would only be on older vehicles).

hope that helps
Andrew.

there should be no issues related to warranties.

Fuel problems have and will always be the domain of the fuel supplier.

A bad batch of fossil fuel is a reality, and (say) Caltex are the ones you need to convince to pay for [cleaning out the fuel tank/fixing the engine/ etc] not the vehicle manufacturer who will point the finger at the fuel.

Toyota dealership knew so little about the fuel problems I had (fossil fuel ones), that they didn't know that the water sat on the bottom of the tank/diesel!

Ciao for now
Andrew.

I'm with ya Ange! :)

I can't wait to smell fish'n'chups rather than stinky old diesel particulates.

LOL..u lunatic !!!

Only problem there is the trail of seagulls that follow u around....might save your engine but whats the bird droppings gonna do to your paint work ay.

hehe!!

No seagulls in them thar mountains....... just those bloody cockies!! Maybe if I idle the engine in the orchard they'll go for the car rather than the fruit :)

Andrew

I see Erldunda NT is a SAFF outlet and should have bio diesel

I haven't checked if they sell B20 (SAFF Premium Diesel) but when I was there a few times in the last few weeks, they certainly did not have B100.

I spoke with them about selling it a couple of months ago, but they just puffed smoke:

"We have 50,000 people through here a day (I found that hard to take seriously), and provide fuel to many of the major tour companies - APT, AdventureTours etc., and you're the first one to ask for it, so I can't see us changing over a set of bowsers and a tank for such a low demand"

Hey - they couldn't even fix a puncture there this time - would only replace the tyre, citing "insurance" blah blah.

Ciao for now
Andrew who wishes there was a much more concerted push to educate the market by someone

Yup - I've been thinking about that too. At this stage - at least until more stations come on-line, I'll take a few jerry cans home with me. The TD42T GQ is only my recreational vehicle, so I don't do all that many miles in it.

Hi cruiser,

I've done 20,000 km in the last 3 months on a mix of B100 and dinodung.

When doing errands around Adelaide (home) I'm fully B100.

When I leave on a trip or tour, I'm full of B100.

When I run out - 1000 km or so later, I'm onto dinodung until I get back to Adelaide because B100 is not readily available.

The problem with fuel filters (as told to me by the SAFF Fuels Biodiesel expert) is that years of residues from dinodung sit around in the fuel system until you load B100 when they get flushed out, suspended and even dissolved by the much better lubricating, much better solvent B100. These then get picked up by the fuel filter which collects this stuff as a one-off event.

It's not like you're going to be clogging filters with the standard stuff any more than you ever would if you never used B100.

The residues from the tanks of fuel in between won't be much of a problem.

The only real fuel filter problem I've had has been from the bad batch of dinodung fossil fuel - extreme water content, requiring the fuel filter to be flushed.

Ciao for now
Andrew smelling like daisies.

Vivid - i know you can make it -- anyone can -- NOT going to give the company name -- but there not a bakyard company - they employ about 50 people over 3 shifts - May not be a major suplier by world standards but still no back yard operation either ......

Boc

Hi Boc,

That's nice to know - why not give the company name?

Aren't they selling their product to someone?

It would be nice to know anyone selling Biodiesel from any source.

50 people, 3 shifts - you'd hope their doing a good volume.

The only producers I have heard of doing that were doing pretty miniscule quantities and had captive markets - transport companies etc.

The Biodiesel in the general market though, comes from vegetable oil or palm oil stocks.

Ciao for now
Andrew.

No smoke when you give it some? That'd be a nice side-effect :)

Same when using a Vege oil blend of above 25%. It's only when the blend gets a bit weak do I see that puff of black smoke out the back - otherwise there's no puff of any colour and lotsa nice smells.

Correction: made from **new** canola or palm oil. None of the major producers in Australia are using WASTE veggie oil.

Tax is the same.

Cost of fossil fuel to transport it is the same.

Volumes are much much less.

Lets get everyone comfortable using it, asking for it, if not demanding it then start demanding sensible long term government support strategies (NO TAX)

and enjoy smellin' the flowers.

Ciao for now
Andrew who thinks there are lotsa biomyths

vivid - do you know that for sure ??? -- i have a customer that produces biodiesel and they make it from used and virgin stock .....

Boc

I can make biodiesel from waste stock too ... there are quite a few folks doing that ...

I meant "major producers":

See this link:

FuelsForum,/a>

Ciao for now
Andrew.

http://www.biofuelsforum.com/showthread.php?t=129 was the link - this forum software is rather flakey!

For vivid,

Quote

"(even excluding Johnny Rotten's fuel excise and GST)" end quote

seems that I excluded tax from the equation.

IF it is true "major producers" don't use waste stock - why not ?

Cost to transport($/km) may be the same, BUT transport costs from a few centralised (fossil oil) refineries, to distribution points are IMHO more expensive than decentralised points of production, situated in proximity to distribution points. Additionally, factored into fossil fuel costs, is the fiction of "global price parity" which incorporates international transport as a component . This factor does not (should not) apply to the costing of biodiesel.

Vivid - your apologia for the profiteers (a.k.a "major producers") also fails to take account of the immense differences in :

(a) obtaining the raw materials - compare veggie oil production and/or collection of waste veggie oil with that for obtaining fossil oil. (Not gross figures, just litre vs. litre). I fail to see how the two could even be regarded as comparable.

(b) actual production (refining) costs (once again, litre vs. litre) of the two alternatives. Similarly to the point raised above, it seems to me that there is at least an order of magnitude in the differences.

Which logic leads me to the conclusion of my initial post
"IMHO there is no justification for the prices being charged (...), except if GREED is accepted as such"

Your posts contain, IMHO, only one valid point,

i.e. "Volumes are much much less."

this factor, taken in isolation, is not sufficient to justify the profiteering taking place.

cya
Terry

Apologia - ROTFL.

You said: "I mean, it's made from WASTE veggie oil".

News to me! Perhaps a Tassie special?

I've been observing the market, but am not an economist and have not assessed every detail. Perhaps you have and can help us out:

What is the actual raw cost of canola or palm oil in 20m or 30m litres contracts?
What is the cost of collection for waste stocks and of disposing of the residues?
What are the business risks in selling a new product to a unsavvy market?
What are the comparitive economics of fossil fuel vs. B100 production/distribution?

I'm a savvy buyer, that's all - I've spoken with the management of some of the businesses making it. I've heard their position. I've checked out what facts I can. I've heard their passions AND their frustrations.

It appears large palm oil volumes are still rather expensive and quantities less than easy to guarantee.

Whole plant investments have been put off because the contracts couldn't be guaranteed!

Commercial Biodiesel product is not coming from waste stocks as far as I have been able to ascertain.

Volumes are so miniscule compared to fossil fuel that every aspect of production and distribution - particularly on our "little" island, can quickly impact the cost. Getting it across to your island is another problem altogether!

Peoples/companies' investments in infrastructure need to be repaid - from low sales volumes.

European markets are prepared to pay even more - so you've got a constrained supply in a market that is prepared to pay more!

I'm not saying it should be that way. But profiteering is a big call that I've not seen the evidence of and your post makes big claims that are not backed up with any facts either.

If the opportunity was that big, you don't think others would be competing in the market?

Andrew rattling on, but sure that volumes millions of times smaller are big economic factors to consider.

Well, where to start ?

Firstly, making biodiesel from waste veggie oil is an old (and proven) technology, and is not restricted to Tas.! (surprise !) Would you be happier if I said "can be" ?

I am not an economist (a greatly overrated pseudo science) - but I can reason (for myself)

re Costs

are measured in environmental, economic and social terms.

Cost of growing an oilseed, harvesting, pressing and collection of the oil vs. immense exploration, drilling and pumping costs for fossil oil - logic dictates the answer.

Collection costs for waste (veggie) oil - must be balanced vs. current costs of collection for disposal in landfill, or incineration (ie. reduced by those amounts) - total costs then measured vs costs of collection and disposal of fossil oil waste and residues (which I will admit are generally uncosted in our current scheme, for handling fossil fuels and residues) - however, not an insignificant cost (further increased by the immense costs in handling accidental mineral oilspills.) Total handling costs (litre/litre) are pretty obviously far less for the than for petrochemicals.

There is no valid reason (as far as I can ascertain) why such waste (veggie) oil, rather than representing a significant COST (in social, environmental and economic ) terms, should not be treated as an ASSET, and used as a raw material, in biodiesel production. Please note, my previous point :

"IF it is true "major producers" don't use waste stock - why not ?"

"What are the business risks in selling a new product to a unsavvy market? "
I've no idea - how does one quantify a "business risk" ? However, given that the alternatives are running out, and that the "unsavvy market" will have to wake up whether they feel like it or not, logically speaking - pretty low.

"What are the comparitive economics of fossil fuel vs. B100 production/distribution? "
Well, the whole point of my posts is that I believe that the comparison favours biodiesel (generically). To suppose otherwise is counterintuitive, given the points I have raised.


I like to think I'm a savvy buyer too, but more, I like to intelligently question what I am told, even though I have not "spoken with the management", whom, I suspect, could not really be regarded as providing a viewpoint which may adversely affect their (I suspect) "windfall" profiteering. Or is it a coincidence that costs for biodiesel are so close to those of fossil diesel ? (Similar to the "coincidental" simultaneous price adjustments of their products made by the major oil companies ?)

With regard to your argument about market volume I have already stated that :
"this factor, taken in isolation, is not sufficient to justify the profiteering taking place. "
No additional information has been offered which would lead me to change my opinion.

The Europeans are prepared to pay more - so ? Americans pay less - neither argument is relevant IMHO.

I am saying that it shouldn't be the way it is.

That profiteering is occurring is obvious to me, and is not such a big call, given the current corporate culture - I just find it weird that a consumer should so quickly leap to the defence of such actions - hence my use of the term "apologia" to refer to your arguments.

I happen to think that if something does not appear to make sense, then it probably doesn't.

Terry, enjoying the exchange of opinions without rancour.

cya

New business for you there Terry - get ya truck out and start picking up that stinking old chip oil and refining it! You could apparently make a killing.

Like many waste technologies, despite the latent value of the asset, finding folks to recycle it - clean it and in this case refine it - is hard. You've got to be prepared to get very dirty and to have large extended liabilities in terms of retrieval, residual disposal etc. You've got to reach a network of fish and chip shops and restaurants and convince them to use your disposal method. Convince them that you should pick it up once a month rather than the once a week their current disposal guy does it (say). Take their phone calls, answer their questions, pick it up when they are there to provide access ... great simple business (yuk!). These are just some of the issues that a new producer of biodiesel considers when considering the stock he will use.

Biodiesel consumption in Australia today is perhaps a few million litres per annum at best - compare this to diesel consumption which is more than 10,000m litres per annum. Sure, folks are building plants that by 2007 might produce 600 or 700m litres per annum, but most of that is targeted at European markets - read the prospectuses of the companies!

Biodiesel production requires building new plants (which is happening), but those plants have not been paid off many years ago - someone has forked out real capital to build them, and want their payback as quickly as possible. Fossil fuel refining, storage and distribution networks are so old that they have been paid off many years ago, and although expensive to run as well, those costs are being amortised across 10,000x the volumes.

There are other uses for oilseeds, palm oil and the land it's grown on. Biodiesel production requires large amounts. The costs are actually pretty high comparitively. If I want to buy 200l quantity of canola oil I'll have to pay $1 per litre as a consumer - and it still needs processing for Biodiesel.

Sure - if I want to buy 200,000 litres I can get a lower price, but it's still in the same territory as fossil fuels are sold for.

There are business risks of course. Just the fuel filter clogging up is one (small) example. There is a lot of misleading information, including on forums like this, about bad biodiesel, biodiesel does this, does that etc. Think how much misinformation is out in the rest of the community - I get mechanics (including on last week in Yulara) asking stoopid questions about Biodiesel and with all sorts of mis-information - if they are misinformed, how about the rest of the market. What potential is there that this can bite a supplier?

The price you pay here at the end of the supply chain, is what is it because of market conditions - how much can they get, how much can they sell it for, how much can they sell, how much is some competitor further down (or is it up) the supply chain (like the Europeans who are buying Australian Biodiesel) is willing to pay.

Everything seems obvious to you and you make lots of statements about what should be, but because you say it should be doesn't mean it is so.

After some exploration and analysis I can see it is reasonable why the prices are where they are, and that until the volumes get much higher, they are not likely to change in a hurry.

I don't see any massive profiteering - most of the producers are public companies and you would see their "massive profits". Name ONE that is making such massive profits - or even projecting it.

If something doesn't make sense to you, spend a bit more time looking at the facts rather than collecting yet more supposition and building more strawmen arguments.

I'm not defending anyone - reread my original post.

1. Tax is the same. (yes - we agree)
2. Post production cost of transport is the same (actually probably Biodiesel is higher because of lower volumes but let's not argue this too much)
3. Volumes are much much less (of the order of 10,000x less in Australia and 1,000,000x less globally)

No apologia - just facts that make the difference.

Ciao for now
Andrew.

Well , Andrew after reading your reply, I have a few comments

1. Your rhetorical skills seem fine, your logical ones less so.

If this were not the case, why not address my arguments directly, as opposed to attempting to denigrate me ?

You claim facts are on your side - please demonstrate it .

I have attempted to do so with respect to all the arguments I have raised, if you have problems with my arguments (other than asserting they are "yet more supposition and building more strawmen arguments.") why not deal with them ?

HINTS : (i) address the argument, not the person
(ii) read what I have said - that way you don't have to mount arguments about points I have not made.

2. Despite the excess of verbiage, your sole (sustainable) argument STILL remains that the price is so high because of the small volumes involved - a point I have met - we just happen to differ in the perceived magnitude of the effect.

3. You seem to have admitted that the producers

"want their payback as quickly as possible" and end price is in part determined by "how much can they sell it for".

Sounds pretty open to the potential for profiteering to me (even obvious).

Your posts seem to me to be unreasonably defensive of the "status quo", (more than I would expect from a disinterested/interested observer), especially considering the lengths you have gone to to attempt to convince me (and the forum) that biodiesel pricing is appropriate. I don't agree, and your rhetoric does not convince me that I am wrong.

Perhaps it boils down to a difference in philosophies, but I just don't think "that what is good for the corporation is good for me", which seems to be the view you are espousing. If I'm wrong about this, I'm sure you'll correct me :-).

cya
Terry

reading through these followups, it seems only vivids making sense?
Why would a company sell it for less than they could if they are already selling all they can produce?

If your boss pays you more money than someone doing the same job at another company are you "profiteering"?

If 2 people are bidding for your house and one offers more than you are asking, what idiot would turn it down?

There seems to be a lot of thought these days that people think the world owes them something ie "cheap biodiesel" etc

If its so easy buy a couple of thousand acres, put in a crop, and process your biodiesel. But dont forget that you need to buy about 20% of the volume as methanol or ethanol for processing, plus caustic soda.

Having said that, look up the "Dr Pepper Method" of Biodiesel processing on the web, and make yourself a batch of 1 litre to see how it works, its quite fascinating

Hope you are not assuming that I am trying to build a case against biodiesel, or to discourage others from using it..

My first post on this subject should make it clear that I am not.

I wish I could get access to biodiesel, and would have no hesitation in paying whatever price was demanded - that doesn't mean, however, that I consider that the pricing is appropriate, or fair, or reflects the true cost of production and distribution.

I do question the motivation behind the current pricing structures, and the current pricing levels - and that is all.

regards
Terry

Biodiesel and dinodiesel mix quite happily.

So much so that most of the major fuel companies are putting biodiesel as an additive to increase lubrication in their dinodiesel product.

Further, B20 and B50 and 20 and 50% respectively Biodiesel.

Your fuel pump and engine will be better lubricated and probably last longer if they've not been wrecked already.

Only issues might be perished natural rubber in the system which could not survive the better solvent ability of Biodiesel, and the gunk from years of deposits from dinodiesel residues/impurities which Biodiesel cleans out of the system and which get deposited in your fuel filter (discussed above).

Ciao for now
Andrew who unfortunately has some dinodiesel hanging around in the tank most of the time.