wont pay for ya fuel, eh?

Submitted: Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 17:04
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further to the posting the other week about not paying for food and fuel etc,

A fella in country WA today left a fuel station without paying and was consequently shot for his troubles.

Aint you guys lucky!! LOLOL
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Reply By: ro-dah-o (WA) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 17:10

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 17:10
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1559117.htm
AnswerID: 152088

Follow Up By: Lone Wolf - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 19:54

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 19:54
"Estne tibi forte magna feles fulva et planissima? "

Something about a cat? Run over?

Wolfie
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Follow Up By: ro-dah-o (WA) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:49

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:49
very close........
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Follow Up By: Willem - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:59

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:59
Estne tibi forte magna feles fulva et planissima

Driving east at 40kmh in a Magna the fat cat fell out on the plain??

LOL
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Follow Up By: ro-dah-o (WA) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:01

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:01
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Very imaginative, needed a good laugh after the arvo i've had

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Follow Up By: Lone Wolf - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:04

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:04
Willie, that is pure GOLD!!!!

Wolfie
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Follow Up By: RustyHelen - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:11

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:11
Hey ro-dah-o
Estne tibi forte magna feles fulva et planissima?
Do you by chance happen to own a large, yellowish, very flat cat?

And isn't it great when cats get to be like that-- yellow or any colour.....
Rusty
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Follow Up By: ro-dah-o (WA) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:38

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:38
You got it in one

I say if their on the road -GAME ON!!!!
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Reply By: Member - Steve (ACT) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 17:11

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 17:11
I rather have a fine!!

Officer shoots man dead on Pilbara roadside
A police officer has shot dead a 38-year-old man in the Pilbara region of Western Australia.

It is understood authorities were contacted by staff at the Fortescue Roadhouse, about 140 kilometres south of Karratha, who said a man had driven off without paying for fuel.

The man was stopped by an officer on the North West Coastal Highway, about 20 kilometres south of the town.

It is believed a fight broke out when the officer attempted to make an arrest, and the man was shot dead.

Ian Haselby from police media says the officer, who was alone, was punched during the fight.

"The Senior Constable has been attacked by the alleged offender, punched in the face," he said.

"And during the altercation, two rounds have been fired from the police pistol.

"We understand that the deceased had received one or two of those rounds, he's a 38-year-old man."

The officer has been taken to hospital.

The police major crime unit and internal affairs are on their way to the scene.

AnswerID: 152089

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 17:43

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 17:43
That'll teach him!!!! He won't drive off without paying for his fuel EVER again!!!!
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 17:48

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 17:48
he might...

38 yr old done by a 38
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Follow Up By: Member - Brian (Gold Coast) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:30

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:30
Who died and made you Number 1 Nudie????
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:55

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:55
david made me no 1 cos he can

tthe bloke died cos of 38

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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:09

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:09
who was it that didnt pay for bacon and eggs?? Bet he is bleep ting hot coals about now...
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Follow Up By: Ando80 - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 14:18

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 14:18
sorry to burst your bubble nudie, but they don't carry 38's anymore.
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Follow Up By: Member No 1- Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 17:57

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 17:57
9mm is close enough to a 38

sapol still use 38
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Reply By: Member No 1- Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 17:49

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 17:49
those wa coppers dont have a sense of humour eh?
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Reply By: Member - David 0- Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 18:03

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 18:03
Difficult to know just what took place, but shooting a guy for punching you in the face seems a tad "forceful."

Why was the cop alone?

Seems like some operational issues at play.

Petrol is bloody expensive but to pay with your life seems a bit extravagant.
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Follow Up By: ro-dah-o (WA) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 18:07

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 18:07
quite a few regional areas have highway patrols that are one man (or woman PC)

Quite common to see

and the price of fuel in the Pilbarra has just become that little more expensive.............
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 18:12

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 18:12
I'm sure the self defence law in WA is similar to almost everywhere else which provides that one may only use "reasonable force" to overcome an attacker. Perhaps they'll find a convenient screwdriver or similar at the scene with which the attacker was going to stab the officer?

To me it looks like it may be another example of why Australian police officers should not, routinely, carry firearms. No one will ever know for sure of course.

Would it have been that hard to have stopped him at the next town? It was only a few dollars worth of fuel.

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: ro-dah-o (WA) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 18:22

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 18:22
that it is, the self defence laws are fairly similair across the board these days.

As you said, no one will ever know for sure the cause, it is one mans word only.

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Follow Up By: Exploder - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 19:29

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 19:29
He must of felt very threatened to use his gun, my old man is a cop in WA and in 30+ years he has only had to use his gun 2 times, one was to save his partners life and the second I don’t now much about some Hostage situation I think, both of which there was a retune investigation where he was shown 0 leniency and was put under the torch.

As far as I know one of them it is still on his record, as not following procedure, I.E not shooting to kill, he got in the chit for this!! As at the time he believed the situation didn’t have to end with a man being dead.

So the use of a police weapon is not something to be taken lightly by the officer or perpetrator, and we may look at it as a man is dead, but the officer was only following procedure and why did he feel the need to attack the officer what would of happened if the officer did not respond like this, I am guessing there is more to this story.

The cop’s seem to be getting the blame for a lot lately just for the stupidity of the public.

"To me it looks like it may be another example of why Australian police officers should not, routinely, carry firearms." So what if a situation arises where they need a firearm they need to put a call out for one.
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Follow Up By: Andrew (Whyalla SA) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 19:36

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 19:36
He stole the fuel, got pulled over by the cops and then punched the cop - at least once - in the face. If the cop wasnt armed then maybe he would be the dead one. Im sure the cop wouldnt have shot him if he didnt genuinely believe his life was in danger.
Why do people immediately bag the cop - doing his job - and have instant sympathy for some probable feral lowlife????

I dont know the right and wrong in this story, I wasnt there, but neither do you guys.
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Follow Up By: Member - Brian (Gold Coast) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:32

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:32
"I dont know the right and wrong in this story, I wasnt there, but neither do you guys."

Well said Andrew
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Follow Up By: govo - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:01

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:01
quote..To me it looks like it may be another example of why Australian police officers should not, routinely, carry firearms. No one will ever know for sure of course.

Mike Harding...this would have to be the winner for the most stupid comment of the year...and l'm sure all aussie cops would agree..it's only the last few years that aussie cops have been issued with automatic pistols so they would'nt be outgunned by the crims.
ln future Mike learn all the facts before making stupid comments.
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Follow Up By: Des Lexic - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:03

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:03
I'm with you Andrew, there are to many chit bags out there who think the world owes them a living. I have worked with them and I know how the coniving aholes think, and the bleeding hearts get sucked in. I think the coppers generally do a great job.
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:43

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:43
>ln future Mike learn all the facts before making stupid
>comments.

Educate me then govo - tell me "The Facts" about police forces in Australia and firearms (but make damn sure you can support them!) or don't you really know them?

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:06

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:06
Educate me then Mike - tell me "The Facts" about police forces in Australia and firearms (but make damn sure you can support them!) or don't you really know them?

So come on Mike you made the opening statement, lets hear your expert opinion on the matter.
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Follow Up By: Andrew (Whyalla SA) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:08

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:08
Mike

Police carry guns to protect themselves and the public. Its a visible deterrent.
I wouldnt be a cop for quids, but Im doubly sure I wouldnt do the job unarmed. The days of a tough cop winning a fistfight are long gone - the ferals and gangs are all armed with weapons all of the time and do use them.
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Follow Up By: techie - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:13

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:13
Mike
I think what Govo meant to say was "in my opinion"
Each person has their own perspective on things, as do I.
there is no need to flame each other as I am sure we are all gentlemen.

To each their opinion and, with it, respect for the other.
Techie.
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Follow Up By: govo - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:35

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:35
Ok mike, you want the facts..here they are..as Andrew has previously said....Quote :- Police carry guns to protect themselves and the public. Its a visible deterrent.

And please don't get hot under the collar when you are critizised for making a stupid comment. l think even YOU realize that police need to arm themselves to save thier own life and that of the public....would you say that if police get a call to a armed hold up they should go unarmed...l think not...or if a member of your family were being held hostage and a police sniper turned up you would tell him to leave..l think not.....facts, facts , facts......you got them.

( this is only my opinion :) :) :) ) lol
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Follow Up By: Anne from Drysdale River Station - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 04:17

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 04:17
Bottom line, if the guy hadn't attacked the cop none of this would have happened !
Almost evey one of us has been pulled up for something at some time, did you jump out and try to kill the copper, I know I didn't. For all we know if he hadn't shot the guy it would now be the policeman who was dead.
They have a rotten hard job and we are all buggared without them.
It's like blaming the poor guard dog when it bites the burglar who tried to kick it in the head.
Now days it seems to be the crook that gets the sympathy not the victim. It's wrong.
My opinion only, Anne
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Follow Up By: Member - Brian (Gold Coast) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 07:25

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 07:25
"Now days it seems to be the crook that gets the sympathy not the victim. It's wrong.
My opinion only, Anne"

My opinion as well Anne!
Well said!!
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 14:14

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 14:14
>Ok mike, you want the facts..here they are..as Andrew has
>previously said....Quote :- Police carry guns to protect
>themselves and the public. Its a visible deterrent.

What “facts”? You haven’t produced any. All you’ve done is quote another poster to this forum. Therefore I must conclude you are unable to support your argument that police should routinely carry a handgun.

>And please don't get hot under the collar when you are
>critizised for making a stupid comment.

Excuse me! :) You, implicitly, call me “stupid” (and you just did it again) and then you have the effrontery to criticise me for being a little reactive to that. The word irony springs to mind.

>l think even YOU realize that police need to arm
>themselves to save thier own life and that of the public

Please read what I wrote before you respond. I said “routinely” carry guns.

Of course the police sometimes need firearms but they don’t need them when they’re walking around my local shopping centre. They don’t need them when they’re visiting a school to follow up reports of vandalism. They don’t need them when (on those rare occasions they bother) they visit someone’s house to obtain the value of what was stolen in a burglary – in other words they don’t _routinely_ need them. Indeed there is an argument that if police routinely carry firearms that policy effectively “forces” professional criminals to carry them too – a difficult one to prove either way.

>facts, facts , facts......you got them.

You haven’t given any – not a single one.

But here’s a few: Project Beacon – a specific re-training programme for police in Vic because they were shooting too many people.

The Police Assoc. formally stating that all police shootings are justified (really!)
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2005/s1349982.htm

The irrational and inconsistent refusal of police to accept random drug and alcohol testing before they wonder off in public with a handgun on their hips.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/National/Drug-tests-are-meant-to-help-force/2005/03/07/1110160754810.html
Quote from above link.
-----------
NSW police involved in critical incidents have been tested for drugs and alcohol since 1998. The policy was introduced after two police who shot dead a mentally disturbed man armed with a knife were found to be cocaine users.
-----------

The UK has a far higher rate of violent crime than Australia yet the police there are not routinely armed – and don’t wish to be.

A short article on the issue of police shootings in Vic
http://www.libertyvictoria.org.au/docs/20050408%20Accounting%20for%20the%20lethal%20force.pdf

Finally Govo – I expressed an opinion, a quite reasonable one and one shared by many people in this country - it isn’t stupid. You may disagree with it but I don’t think you’re stupid because of that. I would like to try and encourage you to change that opinion or, at least, rebut your points, through force of argument not by insulting you.

Mike Harding

mike_harding@fastmail.fm
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 15:31

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 15:31
facts, facts , facts......you got them.

You haven’t given any – not a single one.

Mike I would submit that neither have you.

The links you provided are nothing more than newspaper articles.
I guess you would naively have us believe that what is written in a newspaper is "Fact". Somehow I think not!

The Liberty Victoria article makes good reading but is still an article written by an organisation with their own slant on matters, in my view also lacking facts to support your argument.

Lets ask another question here "What has the Coroner said about these cases and what has been his recommendation?" this would be more factual than any article that could be slanted in anyway by the respective journalist.
And yep over the years the Coroner has been critical of Police methods, hence the introduction of programs like Project Beacon.
No system is perfect and the ongoing review and changes to methods should always be at the top of the list.

I disagree with your argument that Police don't routinely need to carry firearms. What constitutes "Routine" in the normal course of a Police Officers day?
Hmmm!! yep he's patrolling the local shopping Centre when two heavily armed robbers come out of the nearby bank see the Police uniform, panic and start shooting!!!! "Wait" he yells "I need to go get my gun from the car or wherever it's located before we can continue with this scene" so what in your view was routine has suddenly escalated into something that is not routine.

What about the Victorian officer who recently stopped a driver for a routine traffic matter and was killed with his own gun, A case in argument against solo policing and this WA incident may have had a different outcome if there had been two officers involved.

I personally know several Police officers who have attended domestic disputes and been shot at, just everyday routine police attendances you know.

You want Police to act in our interest and maintain law and order, well then you have to give them every opportunity to protect themselves by supplying both proper training and equipment or don't expect people to do the job.
And I would submit that there is no such thing as a "Routine" day for most police officers out on the streets.
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 17:12

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 17:12
>>facts, facts , facts......you got them.

>Mike I would submit that neither have you.

That’s half true :) Mainly because it’s a subject it’s probably impossible to site objective “facts” which prove a point one way or another. Although I would certainly suggest that the acknowledgement by the government that Project Beacon needed to be implemented is as close to a fact as we’re likely to get.

>The links you provided are nothing more than newspaper articles.

Errrr… the Police Association Assistant General Secretary stating on the 7.30 Report that all police shooting are justified – words from his own mouth and it’s indicative of an attitude. If he’s brazen enough to say that on national TV perhaps the officer on the beat is thinking the same thing?

And I note there is no response from you to the point I made in regard to the British police not routinely carrying firearms despite a higher rate of violent crime in the UK or the reluctance of the police to agree to random drug and alcohol testing.

>I disagree with your argument that Police don't routinely need
>to carry firearms. What constitutes "Routine" in the normal
>course of a Police Officers day?

This is a very valid point and the only argument which carries any weight at all for police to routinely carry firearms.

>Hmmm!! yep he's patrolling the local shopping Centre when two
>heavily armed robbers come out of the nearby bank see the Police
>uniform, panic and start shooting!!!!

But it’s also a “thin end of the wedge” argument – what happens if those robbers have fully automatic weapons – should we not therefore ensure out police are routinely equipped with machine guns – what if the robbers have bazookas etc etc

In addition if police were not routinely armed maybe criminals would be less likely to carry, and use, a firearm and I would prefer not to have a “shoot out” in a shopping centre anyway it’s most likely to be some poor bystander who cops a stray round.

>What about the Victorian officer who recently stopped a driver for
>a routine traffic matter and was killed with his own gun,

I don’t have a source for this but, anecdotally, I hear more USA police are killed with their own weapons than in any other way? Surely an argument against the carriage of guns?

>A case in argument against solo policing and this WA incident may
>have had a different outcome if there had been two officers involved.

We’ll never know, of course, but I wonder if the officer had not had the reassurance of a firearm would he have chosen not to stop the man in those circumstances but to have arranged a road block etc?

>I personally know several Police officers who have attended
>domestic disputes and been shot at, just everyday routine
>police attendances you know.

Yes… well… the whole issue of the appropriateness of police involvement in domestic matters is one which could fill an entire conference.

>You want Police to act in our interest and maintain law and order,
>well then you have to give them every opportunity to protect
>themselves by supplying both proper training and equipment or
>don't expect people to do the job.

That’s a very fair point and I agree totally – but they do have a range of options at their disposal and I must repeat: British police do OK and the police themselves, in the UK, don’t want to routinely carry firearms.

Thank you John for a rational and balanced post. I don’t agree with you but I respect your different point of view.

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Member - Glenn D (NSW) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 17:32

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 17:32
Saw on the news an officer being helped into a patrol car , I dont normally believe anything shown on tv or writen in the Daily Telegraph ( Sydney ) ,but imagine for a minute that was you fighting with someone you thought was going to kill you.

Does anyone try to kill you while you are doing your job , bet you are better paid as well .

Im not a copper either .

Glenn.
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 17:40

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 17:40
I made no comment regarding the UK as you offered no source of information and I know little of the circumstances in that country.

The Police Association will always stand by there members regardless of the situation, and just because he is the Asst General Sec does not mean he is immune from "foot in mouth".

I agree that it is strange that Police seem reluctant to agree to Drug and alcohol testing, particularly after police involved shooting.
Truthfully I thought they were, so you have enlightened me in this respect.

"But they do have a range of options at their disposal"
This range of options was the purpose of Project Beacon, train officers in a broader manner in the hope that they can apply other less lethal methods to a situation.
Not perfect but it has apparently decreased the number of police shootings which can only be good for all parties.

I don't advocate disarming the Police any more than I would advocate disarming properly licensed and responsible Australian gun owners.
The arming of police is an argument that is thin one way or the other, in my view I think that the number of questionable incidents involving police shootings are far outweighed by the 99,9% of genuine police who use there weapon in response to a genuine threat.
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Follow Up By: Member - Kimberly Kruiser (WA) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 18:59

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 18:59
G'day Mike

May I first take the bold step of congratualting you on your perfect 20/20 vision in hindsight.

Have followed this post with some interest and in particular your strong anti gun stance on this matter. Not knowing you I would have no idea if this gun phobia arises from some bad personal experience or if you just like to beat the opposing drum and coppers in general.

You are as you state entiteld to your point of view, as are others, but I do pose the following questions and would be interested in your response:

1) How many violent and desperate offenders have you apprehended in your life?
2) How many Armed Hold-ups have you attended?
3) How many drugged/drunken/derranged/violent and generally unco-operative people have you apprehended?
4) How many people have attempted to cause you grevious bodily injury or death by beating you with a wide arrange of purpose made and handy lethal weapons?
5) What degree, formal training and experience do you hold in law enforcement?

Now lets for the sake of my point, take this to the next level. You have been duly appointed as Constable Mike Harding for the purpose of this exercise.

The scene is as follows. You are on patrol in uniform in a marked patrol vehicle in a country area and as it happens you are on patrol alone. You don't really like the fact that you are alone but it's the nature of the beast. Your union has lobbied against the practice as you have to, but you have a job to do and that's the way it is. You receive a message that there is a vehicle heading your way and the driver has committed an offence of stealing fuel from a servo up the road. You turn around and begin to follow the vehicle, it's broad daylight and he has well and truly seen you. At this point we don't know if you have initiated the stop of his vehicle or he has stopped of his own accord as he has seen you are alone and a more equal footing to deal with you if he has some further nasty intention. You don't know any of this because your crystal ball is in for repair.
Unknown to you, this guy is wanted for questioning regarding a double murder elsewhere. You are cautious, as you are trained to be but still not a mind reader.
Anyway the vehicle is now stopped and you are about to have a bit of a chat about the stealing offence (cause it's actually your job to do so).
Anyway this guy produces a nice heafty wheel brace and commences to beat the absolute #rap out you. You are extremely lucky that you haven't been rendered unconcious with the first few assaults, but your going down. Once you go down your a goner. This guy has nothing to lose and taking you out is no problem to him.

Outcome 1. Your armed, you draw your sidearm and double tap Mr aggro. You live.
Outcome2. Your not armed. You go down and are beaten to death.
Outcome 3. Your issued sidearm is secured in your partol vehicle. You beg the beating to stop so you can get to your weapon but sadly Mr aggro doesn't like that idea and beats you to death.

Given the above circumstances, which outcome would you be leaning towards. Lets also acknowledge that at this point rational debate isn't the slightest option.

I conceed that had this stop had been performed in mass of Police numbers, and in fact if all arrests and stops were made in mass numbers there would be a very different outcome. Unfortunatly there is not the resources or neccessity to do so for each of the thousands of contacts made by police with offenders of all sorts, on a daily basis.

As I have posted earlier, it would be nice if we lived in LaLa land where the neccessity for armed police was no longer required. I don't think that will happening any time soon.

Cheers
Wal.

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Follow Up By: Des Lexic - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 19:12

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 19:12
Excellent response Wal. I vote for Outcome No 1. Stuff the chit bags
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Follow Up By: Member - Glenn D (NSW) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 19:20

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 19:20
Whats going on Mike ?

You choose to respond futher down the post .

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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 20:06

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 20:06
Hi Wal

>May I first take the bold step of congratualting you on your
>perfect 20/20 vision in hindsight.

I proffered possibilities not certainties, please don’t twist my words.

>Have followed this post with some interest and in particular
>your strong anti gun stance on this matter. Not knowing you
>I would have no idea if this gun phobia arises from some bad
>personal experience or if you just like to beat the opposing
>drum and coppers in general.

That made me laugh Wal.

I have been licenced to, and owned, all manner of firearms in a number of jurisdictions (Australia and overseas) for 36 years, as I write this post eight different weapons sit in the gunsafe about 4m away from me.

>You are as you state entiteld to your point of view, as are
>others, but I do pose the following questions and would be
>interested in your response:

I don’t think you would Wal – you go on to set up a scenario which can only have one possible outcome and I think you do that because you already have a very fixed opinion on whether police offices should routinely carry a handgun and I’m not going to play your game Wal :)

Perhaps you would answer the points I’ve raised in previous posts which, notably, you have failed to do here.

Mike Harding

PS. Glenn D – I’m sorry but I don’t understand your post?
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Follow Up By: Member - Kimberly Kruiser (WA) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 21:41

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 21:41
G’day Mike

Now we have established that you don’t actually have a gun phobia, as you state you have eight of them in close proximity to you, I expect that you have pure adversity to coppers being armed.

To set a point early, I have no intention of twisting your words nor even reading any of the media driven dribble you refer to. I am more interested in the coroner’s findings, justified or dubious. At the end of the day that is all that really matters, not some journo’s axe grinding dribble.

Yes I do have a very fixed opinion as to whether Police Officers should routinely carry firearms. But I am in no way playing any game. I was and still genuinely interested in where your slant was coming from but as I expected you have steered away from committing to that. What is your actual agenda if you have one.

I asked of your qualifications in law enforcement. No reply. Can only conclude you have none.

The scenario I put forward does not have one possible outcome. There are clearly two.
You the armed Constable Harding = one dead offender.
You the unarmed Constable Harding = one dead Constable Harding.
But to follow your line of thought, you would be dead,dead,dead.

We could play on scenarios and justifications for hours upon end but to little avail I presume.

I would conclude that you would be the classic armchair Sherlock Holmes with little or no understanding of life or death on the street for average plod and that’s fine. That’s your right and obviously your opinion, strange as I may find it.

I do feel that you just really like the sound of your own keyboard most of the time, but that’s just my opinion.

Cheers & Good Health
Wal.
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FollowupID: 406073

Reply By: russ36 - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 18:12

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 18:12
while in WA yrs ago i heard about a traveller who, on biteing into a meat pie recently purchased from a servo, found himself with a mouthfull of maggots. so enraged was he that he returned to the servo and threw the hot pie into the attendants face! the attendant ,knowing well that he wasnt responsible for the pie's quality then jumped the counter and gave the customer a fine beating ....some people really do stuff up in the heat of the moment... there are mostly appropriate solutions available for the resolvment of disputes.
AnswerID: 152100

Follow Up By: ro-dah-o (WA) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 18:28

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 18:28
what...and shootings not appropriate???????
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FollowupID: 405674

Follow Up By: russ36 - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:30

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:30
no comment from me about shooting being appropriate or not, i wasnt there, just a general statement about how bad things can turn out over an offence that originally could have been settled privatley or delt with in court, but in this case, somehow, its all gone horribly wrong.
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FollowupID: 405783

Follow Up By: Des Lexic - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 11:04

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 11:04
Yes but if the attendant had heated the pie up properly, the maggots would have been dead. LOL
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FollowupID: 405897

Follow Up By: gramps - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 12:54

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 12:54
What's wrong with the traveller? He gets fresh protein as a free extra and then complains. What is this world coming to :)))))
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FollowupID: 405910

Reply By: GOB & denny vic member - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 19:27

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 19:27
right or wrong about shooting the bloke i am quite happy to see mr plod carrying a weapon in these areas as you dont know who or what is about

steve
just my 2bobs worth
AnswerID: 152108

Reply By: The Rambler( W.A.) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:14

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:14
As far as I am conscerned any police officer that is attacked doing his job has every right to defend himself with the firearm that has been issued for that exact purpose.
AnswerID: 152118

Reply By: Patroleum - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:20

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:20
I think it's great, this feral stole fuel. Anyone with half a brain knows stealing is wrong!. Keep cops armed, they have to put up with a lot of cr@p that they should not have to. Can you imagine living in a society where the Police have even less power - forget it!

Greg
AnswerID: 152119

Reply By: Member - laura B (NSW) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:29

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 20:29
i work for caltex and if i was allowed to use a gun i would have shot about 200 people or more in the past 6 yrs!!! you would be suprised what people say/do to get away with it...the best one was a ...guess ...not that says anything but in our town it does...anyway...he came in filled up and had insufficient funds..told me that he was on his way to adelaide...had no money at all..not even the guys in the car...wouldnt have gotten far in a commadore....anyway...copy of his card later and the next day i saw him in town...i went up to him and asked him how adelaide was and that it was a quick trip and that the cops were very intersted in him...anyway he was in work the next day paying for it apoligising like it was going out of fashion!!
plenty of stories!!!
Laura B
AnswerID: 152126

Reply By: Willem - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:02

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:02
The cops are there to protect us from ourselves and from idiots.

They should be issued with Uzzi's and not cumbersome old 38's
AnswerID: 152138

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:06

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:06
In South Africa they used to be and lots more powers too - 90 days wasn't it..? and look what happened there?

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 405731

Follow Up By: Willem - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:37

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:37
LOL Mike

I saw that you had responedd to the post and thought I would go fishing.

It never fails

Cheers
0
FollowupID: 405745

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:41

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:41
Everyone needs a hobby, Willem - even you.

Mike Harding
0
FollowupID: 405750

Follow Up By: Willem - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:27

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:27
Hobbies? Geez mate with a missus like mine I don't need a hobby. Never a dull moment.

Yes I have lots of hobbies and stirring you is one of them... LOL

Your consistent comments about South Africa though, is purile. You really have to grow up and move on.

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FollowupID: 405782

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:50

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:50
>Yes I have lots of hobbies and stirring you is one
>of them... LOL

But Willem... just a few weeks ago you started a (now deleted) post where you were whining about how Wombat and I had said things which upset you...

Make your mind up possum....

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 405802

Follow Up By: Willem - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:16

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:16
Yes Mike stirring and banter is one thing but you and the other fella always have to bring up something nasty.

After that post I decided that maybe I would try and be friendly with you seeing it is a new years and all that.

But you have to revert to insinuations and smart arse comments as to my background etc.

It shows a lack of something...maybe it is education or just plain manners.

Seeing as you have now reverted to your continuous harping on my background etc you can well and truly go and see a taxidermist.

You are not worth the effort and this is my last post to you.
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FollowupID: 405815

Follow Up By: Jeepster-WA - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 01:30

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 01:30
They're .40cal semi auto glocks that we use now and the suspect in this situation stole the car and the petrol, and yes the poor old plod rightly believed that the scum bag was going to punch his lights out and steal and use his gun on him as did happen in victoria recently.
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FollowupID: 405857

Follow Up By: ImEasy - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 12:47

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 12:47
Ahhh forget about Mike, Willem, I dont think he's lacking education, or manner's, it's just that he is the result of a "Drunken F#ck"! So there is a bit of background about him.....

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FollowupID: 405909

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 14:17

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 14:17
>You are not worth the effort and this is my last post to you.

If only!

Mike Harding
0
FollowupID: 405923

Follow Up By: govo - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 15:30

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 15:30
Quote...In South Africa they used to be and lots more powers too - 90 days wasn't it..? and look what happened there?

Ummm Mike...what the hell has South Africa got to do with us...opps..looks like another stupid comment

Quote..Of course the police sometimes need firearms but they don’t need them when they’re walking around my local shopping centre...and if they get a callout where they do need them what do they do...l know..they just drive back to the station to get them and if some idiot is going crazy with a gun or knife they just leave the public to defend themselves...stop being a damm know all and do gooder.

effrontery >>> another word for guts hey....such a big word from a small narrow brain.

And mike l did'nt call you stupid l just said that you made a stupid comment because after all you were not at the scene in WA and did not know all the facts...did you happen to see the size of the copper..a big boy with lots of experince...do you think think this bloke would have pulled his gun after one punch in the face.

( now l'll sit back and wait for the reply with all the big words..maybe even pull out a violin to listen to while l read )
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FollowupID: 405940

Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 15:51

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 15:51
Govo unfortunately Mike Hardings reference is to Willem's country of birth.

A country that has suffered many a tragic set of circumstances in its history, but if you follow Mike's line of thinking the negative aspects of SA are the fault of the person he is applying his condescending attitude towards.

This is typical of the way that Mike likes to belittle others.
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Reply By: Member - Davoe (Widgiemooltha) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:06

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:06
I dunno it seems like a good way to stop Victorians from trying to overcrowd our state as well
He was not just punched in the face but was punched to the ground and had the boot layed in. TV footage showed the acting Sargeant who was a firearms trainer being helped to tha Ambulance with a smashed in face. The flying Doctors are currently on standby to fly him to Perth as He has suspected bleeding to the brain
I would bet money that alot more info comes to light about the Victorian who claimed to have driven off without paying because he had no money.
AnswerID: 152140

Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Australia) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:26

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:26
Yeah but his mother was from NSW and dad from QLD, he was visiting his half sister who lives in WA with some bloke who came from Tassie after leaving his wife who came from NT.
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FollowupID: 405847

Follow Up By: Des Lexic - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 11:10

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 11:10
Bluudy typical Ray, you left us croweaters out again. Appolgise now or you might be suspended from the site for the next ten minutes.
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FollowupID: 405898

Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Australia) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 12:12

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 12:12
Just what am I supposed to do here Al, make up some false story so the crows can be included. Sorry but my investigation didn't reveal any SA connection. I served my suspension while in Ballarat trying to unearth further connections.
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FollowupID: 405904

Follow Up By: Des Lexic - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 19:04

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 19:04
Why let the truth get in the way of a good story. Apology acknowledged (you did say Sorry) Suspension served o:)
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FollowupID: 406020

Reply By: Erwin - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:57

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 21:57
The victim in all of this is the poor copper and his family. Not only did he probally have to fight for his life, fight to retain his weapon so it wouldn't be used againgst him but now he has to fight the do-gooders who believe that police routinely shoot dead shop lifters and traffic offenders, judge and condem all accordingly. Get real.
AnswerID: 152160

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:09

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:09
Here Here Erwin.....well spoken.....more power to the Police I say. Get rid of the real pigs....those mongrels who make us all cringe when we see/hear them in public places. I may be a bit too far the other way in my thoughts, but I reckon places like Singapore etc have got the right idea....ZERO TOLERANCE.

Cheers

Roachie
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FollowupID: 405769

Follow Up By: Erwin - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:24

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:24
I don't know if its about more power for the Police. The point I was trying to make was ...Do some people really believe that a police officer would just shoot dead someone who hasn't paid for fuel. Zero tolerance - providing it is coupled with common sense and accepted by the majority of the community (not the minority) is a good thing.

Off topic just slightly....but somehow related...."Who do civil liberties represent." Do they represent the majority of a community? Have you ever been asked your view by them? Are you a normal law abiding citizen or are you one of the minority ratbags of society. Now who do they represent?
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FollowupID: 405780

Follow Up By: techie - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:25

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:25
I like to believe the police have been fully trained in trying to avoid a confrontation, but some people , possibly due to arrogance, or embarrasment, try and push a bad point.
If the police officer was the victim, the baddie thinks "got away with this one".

I too believe in zero tolerance.
it is harsh, but everyone knows where the line is and, if you cross it, you pay the penalty.

I do think the lack of police powers is the reason so much crime is committed today.
Just my opinion
Techie.

0
FollowupID: 405820

Follow Up By: Member - David 0- Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:58

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:58
Well there are at least two victims here and we have no idea who was innocent.

I am really amazed that the police force in WA feels that they meet their duty of care to their officers and the publc by allowing a single officer patrol. That in my opinion is just stupid and may well have cost the alleged thief his life and the cop his future.

I wouldn't be a cop or quids but, if I was I sure wouldn't patrol alone under any circumstances.

Dave O
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FollowupID: 405835

Follow Up By: gramps - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:05

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:05
David,

Single officer patrols are far more common than we know. Definitely a lot in NSW whether by design or operational necessity, who knows?
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FollowupID: 405837

Follow Up By: Member - David 0- Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:11

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:11
Fair enough, but I am not arguing they don't occur, I just don't see how a police force can argue they meet their duty of care to officers and public with single officer patrols. Just my opinion.
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FollowupID: 405842

Follow Up By: gramps - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:19

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:19
David,

I agree with your point re duty of care. Unfortunately it's not a perfect world so to achieve their duty of care either it's more Police ( $$$s ) or less patrols. Rock and a hard place.
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FollowupID: 405845

Reply By: gramps - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:46

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 22:46
Hmm interesting range of opinions, not much in the way of facts.

How about we all have a Bex and a little nap. Who knows, we might even wake up in the morning with a few facts before us.

Regards

p.s. what a feisty bunch we are tonight :))))))
AnswerID: 152178

Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Australia) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:07

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:07
you are the voice gramps, onya mate.
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FollowupID: 405809

Follow Up By: gramps - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:14

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:14
Ray,

Had to check outside to see if it was a full moon. Too much bloody cloud to tell. May be they all got a knockback tonight ??? LOLOL
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FollowupID: 405813

Follow Up By: techie - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:27

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:27
I didn't even get an offer!! (gotta find a partner, life is oo lonely without one)
Techie
0
FollowupID: 405821

Follow Up By: gramps - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:34

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:34
Ah techie, too much work and not enough play/socializing. Get the right balance and enjoy yourself.
0
FollowupID: 405826

Follow Up By: Mad Dog (Australia) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:34

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:34
That's no good Techie, adult friendfinder or something were advertising on tele the other night. You gotta look cute like me though.
0
FollowupID: 405827

Follow Up By: Member - Glenn D (NSW) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 19:47

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 19:47
Its obvious that you lay down at the drop of a hat "gramps" , so please forward all unused BEX satchel's to me c/o EO, wouldnt mind a cup of tea and a nice lay down myself.

Glenn.
0
FollowupID: 406036

Follow Up By: gramps - Thursday, Feb 02, 2006 at 00:42

Thursday, Feb 02, 2006 at 00:42
Glenn D,

Huh? What are you on about?
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FollowupID: 406129

Reply By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:14

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:14
Agreed Gramps,

Having seen the TV footage, this wasn't just popping a guy who didn't pay for fuel. The cop, a pretty solid looking character, was really struggling to stay on his feet, collapsing without the support of others - he'd been seriously beaten up.

A man has died in this, the cop is seriously injured and as Davoe says, may be airlifted to Perth for specialist treatment.

Let's show some respect and wait for more info to come to light.

Tim
AnswerID: 152188

Follow Up By: gramps - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:17

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:17
Tim,

We'd have no backlogs in the courts if we put some of this lot in as Judges etc :)))))
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FollowupID: 405816

Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:40

Tuesday, Jan 31, 2006 at 23:40
Tim I think the original post was made with a little light hearted attitude.

I'm sure no one would seriously believe that a police officer would use such force as has been applied in this instance unless he was in fear for his life.
No winners here for anyone involved.
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Follow Up By: Member - David 0- Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:04

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:04
If that's true, and I have no reason to doubt it, isn't it a real shame the poor bugger was patrolling alone. Just plain ridiculous that a cop is patrolling alone- he then has fewer choices and if really threatened will have to use deadly force. Bloody stupid policing policy in my opinion.

John wrote- No winners here for anyone involved.

I have to agree.
0
FollowupID: 405836

Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:11

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 00:11
David I agree with your comments about solo policing and I can only hope that the Coroner reams the WA Police for this practice.
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Reply By: Member - Kimberly Kruiser (WA) - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 03:31

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 03:31
Lots of media hype created by very short and sensational headlines as usual. The fact that a man has been shot over the stealing of a tank of fuel is only the prelude to the full story, a story that will be a long time in the full telling. There are only two people who really know what transpired roadside today and one of them will never tell his side of the events. Forensic evidence will fortunately confirm or discredit the evidence of the survivor. As yet his version is not known and therefore arguments of lawful or unlawful actions on his part are but pure speculation.
The fact that this officer ( a trained poffessional, a senior constable with at least 9 years experience ) has chosen to use his sidearm in this situation would lead a reasonable person to believe that there was a fair bit more transpiring roadside than a discussion over a tank of stolen fuel.
To arm our constabulary is and has been a bone of contention for many years. The fact that any officer on any given day can go from assisting a lost child to attending an armed hold up in the matter of minutes, not to mention numerous other dangerous and volitile situations should again give a reasonable person some insight into the fact that having armed police is a neccessary evil. In that perfect lala land it would be nice if it were not the case. Having firearms secured in patrol vehicles is a practice that has had dramatic and fatal failures over the years for the officers concerned. A sidearm is exactly that and should remain on and in control of the wearer.
The issue of one man patrols ( sorry one person patrols ) is an issue that has been in contention for many years, particularly in country regions. I don't think WA is any orphan when it comes to one up patrols and all the jumping up and down by Police Unions and the like will probably continue to go unheared and unheaded for many years to come. We get the service our politicians are prepared to pay for and sufficient police numbers are not high on the agenda, along with many other services, hospitals, schools etc etc.
The fact that the media, as usual, have chosen to throw a couple of vague facts out to the general public has the knockers falling up themselves to come out of the woodwork and fire off a couple of broadside shots. These are usually the same gang that scream blue bloody murder when they are in the #hit and expect half the states Police to come to their aid. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story aye!
At this point my sympathies go out to the officer concerned and his family. Not only does he have to overcome any physical damage done to him, he also has to live with the fact that he has taken another persons life, lawfully justified or not! He will recount those few minutes officially and privately for a long time to come. I doubt he conciously thought about shooting someone today when he left home this morning.
Just my two bobs worth.
AnswerID: 152215

Reply By: V8Diesel - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 10:14

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 10:14
The copper copped enough of a beating by a 120kg bloke to cop a fractured skull. That's no casual clip behind the ear in anyones book.

I say giving a 'double tap' of .40S&W to the offender was entirely approriate. What else could he do? Telekinetically call for transporter beam back up, send the offender for a counselling session to assertain the underlying root cause of his anger and resentment for authority figures, simultaneously grow an extra 40kg's and a black belt.....???

Usual precedure with the Police Glock's in WA is shooting the floor, own foot or passing railway maintenance person whilst making it 'safe'. He got one into a vital zone in extraordinarily trying circumstances, good work.

Hope the copper's OK in the coming weeks, that type of injury can have very serious consequences. He's being airlifted to Perth as I write this. Not a good sign.
AnswerID: 152234

Reply By: OLDMAGPIE - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 10:58

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 10:58
100% behind the poor copper whose life will now be changed forever,i'll bet the guy was drugged out or drunk or bashed his wife or was a thief or whatever it still doesnt give him the right to lay into a bloke doing his job. ive got no sympathy for him. wrong, im not a redneck just sick & tired of people not giving the coppers the respect they deserve while in a uniform. im definetely no angel either but theres got to be a line drawn somewhere & he crossed it. cheers
AnswerID: 152250

Reply By: Ron173 - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 14:48

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 14:48
Too easy really,

Cop has gun and is allowed to use it, dont F*&k with him.

Ron
AnswerID: 152279

Reply By: marcus - Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 19:16

Wednesday, Feb 01, 2006 at 19:16
So the truth is coming out .
This guy was the number 1 suspect in the double stabbing murders or the two sisters here in Melb the other night.He certainly was making a getaway by about 8000klms.He was obviously a very desperate man who may have even killed again to avoid apprehension.The copper did well.
Mark
AnswerID: 152338

Reply By: The Explorer - Thursday, Feb 02, 2006 at 01:01

Thursday, Feb 02, 2006 at 01:01
Sorry - just got back from down south - who got killed where, by whom and for what reason?

Cheers
Greg
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AnswerID: 152418

Follow Up By: gramps - Thursday, Feb 02, 2006 at 01:17

Thursday, Feb 02, 2006 at 01:17
Greg,

Looks like you've got a lot of reading to do to catch up. This thread and 30317 should keep you out of mischief for quite some time :)))))
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FollowupID: 406133

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