Steep Descents using reverse gear

As a traineri hear a lot of different methods for steep hill descents in autos. Dave you have the right idea, first gear low range and gentle braking to control speed. I hear about the drive thru the brakes method with left foot braking, why complicate the issue an auto wont stall so why drive thru brakes? Reverse going forward down a hill WHY? Cant be good for the tranny Brakes are there to contol momentum and speed use them gently and wisely on steep slope so as not to lock wheels and loose steering control. I have an auto and wouldn't even consider putting ih reverse to go forward down a steep slope. Cheers Rob

That is method of decent that I have taught in the past, when there were only a handful of auto's on the market. These days, there is a plethora of different autos available and the were all a bit different as to how sensitive they were to the reverse/forward technique. I desisted in this teaching method, because it became to complicated to advice each driver on their particular vehicle and transmission. But the theory is sound. You can't do any damage to the gearbox, the greatest danger is stalling the engine which leaves you on a steep slope with no gears,no brakes and no engine control. And that, is the whole point of safe off-road driving in the first place. The only situation where the auto is at a disadvantage is in steep decents and to be frank, in this situation, the potential for a run-away is high. Auto's have to default to brakes and brakes on steep slopes and low-friction surfaces leads to wheel lock-up, which leads to skidding which can lead to loss of control.

IMHO this article is another example of the dangerous practice of tossing info around without regard to the skills and experience level of the possible audience.
The technique of driving in an opposite gear to the direction of travel is sound but has some constraints. Extensive use in this way will rapidly heat up the trans fluid as the work being done by the torque converter is greatly increased. You would not want to let anyone know you ever did this in the event of transmission problems!
Most people have little experience with left foot braking in autos or manuals and it is not something to learn on a steep track when things are getting tough.
The technique can take a bit to master, as like a number of things we do 4WDing, such as stall stops, it is quite the opposite action to what we would do on an on road situation. Pushing the accelerator to go slower is not the normal reaction.
Again like left foot braking it is something you need to develop an expertise in.
The technique needs to be fulled explained and practiced regularly to develop confidence and competence. I doubt this would come from reading a magazine article.
There is a risk in prolonged use of this technique and not having seen the article I wonder if this was fully explained. Dave mentions "but not for long periods" not sure if they were his words summariing or the magazine writers. If the later this is hardly good enough.

Driving through the bakes is an new topic introduced into this thread and was not even mentioned in DaveB's opening post. Perhaps from the land of not many hills this is not a well known technique but it is certainly taught in Vic. and as Leroy says it will greatly reduce the risk of wheel lockup on our steep greasy clay surfaces. Skidding wheels neither steer or brake, a couple of things that can be important on stepp tracks.
Ken

Have used the 'reverse gear' technique in my auto pajero & does work very well, but it takes some time to master. I have only used it on very slippery descents where use of brakes, no matter how sensitive you are, is almost useless. One point, & a very important one, is that you are in HIGH RANGE. I'm sure some will find this strange, but it puts far less strain on the vehicle & allows the auto to slip more than if in low range. In regard to distance, 100metres is about the max as the auto can get very hot. The fact of the matter is there are not many really slippery hills,(talking clay here) of this length where I have been in Vic. Even if so, there are sections where you do not need to use this technique.

Great technique to have in the 'bag of tricks', but the reality is you wont use it very often, especially if you can 'drive through the brakes' &/or apply brakes in a progressive manner almost to the threshold point.

I have used reverse down hills after i have got halfway up and found out because of traction problems i couldnt go any further,,,,and its not much fun in the wet...

When auto's first started appearing in 4wd's they were all manually controlled, basic transmissions, mostly pretty bulletproof. The oppposite gear for the direction of travel generally worked well especially when it was a diesel.
BUT modern electronically controlled trans and vehicles with efi will NOT allow this to occur at any speed over a creep or with any revs on board, the efi will shut the motor down. Then you are left with absolutely no power assistance for brakes and steering and no physical connection to the drivetrain, an accident in progress!!
Driving through the brakes works well but as has been said is hard to learn and doesn't occur naturally without lots of practice.

this method it taught by the vic 4 wheel association but only on the advanced course, it is stressed for short periods only due to over heating and stress on the torque convertor, i watched it beening done was impressed with the desent.
but agree it should not be just put out there for general use as some who have little to no idea may do the wrong thing.

gra

Forget all the tricky stuff, keep it simple, slick mud on clay is treacherous. Our CREB track in the wet is scary and I would never go there in the wet without chains. Just last weekend I was riding with 6 other guys up black mountain road west of Kuranda. Experienced riders on proper enduro bikes. After a brief shower of rain we hit this slick patch of clay and all slid off. It was so sliperry we could hardly stand and we had to help each other pick the bikes up. We hopped back on and were falling off slipping and sliding at 5kph. Thats what the CREB track can be like in the wet but with really steep hills. No driving tecnique will get you up or down safely with out winching or chains. Sometimes you just don't want to be there and what may start as a bit of fun can rapidly end in tears. I hate mud (grinding paste)with a passion. If I dont HAVE to be there I wont. Cheers Rob

I can't believe that there are so many ignorant (technically) people out there who advocate this practice !! Some (most?) modern autos stall the engine when this done !! You are then left with no power assist steering or brakes !!!!!!!

Heaven help anyone who tries this stupid practice. My understanding as to why the ecu stalls the engine is that this practice can cause damage to the transmission and it it is hard to show exactly what led to the failure (cooked). To avoid the problem becoming a warrentee fix (big $) due it being mis-handled by the driver/owner, the ecu stalls the engine. Don't beleive me ? Talk the transmission makers. You may have gotten away with it for a short period in the past but the newer egine management systems don't like it.

This has been a fascinating post. Good to hear from experienced auto 4wdrivers for a change.

I am a little tired of trainers who have no auto 4wd experience telling auto drivers no brake etc which doesn’t work with auto's on even fairly modest hills. You just have to learn about the techniques being discussed here - for safety sake.

PS I am also a little tired of people saying auto's are not real 4wd's. In my case SWMBO will not have a manual and in town she drives it most. Also, a good 4wd mate cant drive a manual due to a dummy knee which was shot up when he was in Vietnam as a helicopter pilot.

JD

Allanmac865

Read the text ! Some ecu programmes are designed to STALL the engine if you try this AND you can (will) cook your transmission. Teaching people to use reverse gear for down hill braking could be FATAL. When the engine is stalled by the ecu you will no power assist brakes and no power steering ! Now, how would you like to have a student on a steep slope with the vehicle in that condition - like I said, this could be fatal !

If you are a trainer you should be sticking to the basic, well researched tried and true drive over braking. Also, why do you think auto's have such large brake pedals?

If you don't know the reason that this technique is used then it is back to school for yourself. Hint, it's to do with keeping fluid flywheel engaged and also for traction control including LSD when required.

To awill4x4

Tell me just one vehicle manufacturer that says that using reverse gear as a brake in an auto transmission is both safe and will not damage the transmission !

If you think it's ok then that should not be hard to do !

If I let my Pajero DiD Auto roll backwards while in D High ratio, it will shudder when it gets to about 5km/hr, then stall.

Mike

I have a 3.0 litre Auto fitted with Marks rock crawling gears in the transfer case.
It transforms the vehicle,high range unaffected but low range is lower in first than a manual vehicle.
Down hill braking is better than a manual with all the advantages of a auto for hill climbing.
The best of both worlds for $1500 if you fit yourself.
As to the drive through the brakes method, this was invented I believe by landrover for their Autos.
Regards

Thanks for all your comments everybody. Gives me some things to try