firearms

Submitted: Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 17:13
ThreadID: 3057 Views:1820 Replies:12 FollowUps:23
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had a collision with 2roos a while back at fowlers bay a the only way we could put down these poor animals was with a shovel, so ihave brought a 22 to do the job as this far more humane.is it illegal to carry a gun in natinal parks or just use them?does any one else carry guns for the same reason ?if no how do you put down road kill humanely or would"nt you even stop?i know this is a contraversal question but not all gun owners are rambos.would appreciate some feedback cheers dc.
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Reply By: Member - Moggs - Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 17:26

Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 17:26
Seems a pretty lame excuse to carry a gun - if you need to put wildlife out of their misery you can a) run the front or rear tire over neck/head if car is still roadworthy, or b) use a shovel or axe. Carrying a gun for this purpose is ridiculous and dangerous - I suggest you consider moving to the states where you can pursue your gun fetish with like minded individuals. Hope you feel like a real man with your 22.
AnswerID: 11687

Follow Up By: Member - Moggs - Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 17:57

Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 17:57
dc - sorry, just re-read that and it sounded a bit aggressive - here's why:
In 1999 my wife and I were camping at Werrekimbe National Park(Mooraback camping area) when a normal suburban type camping guy pointed a loaded 22 at my wife when she walked past their campsite at around 10.30pm in the evening on the way to the river to get water for the billy for the morning. I can still remember my wifes scream and the fear that remained on her face until we left the campsite the following day (early I might add). The reason why this happened. They guy had a rifle to kill any wildlife that he hit. When camping he kept the rifle in the tent with him for security of the weapon. When he heard noise outside his tent he emerged with the loaded rifle and automatically raised it as he looked for the noise. I believe my wife was not far away from being shot. The gentlemen concerned apologised profusely and looked maginally more scared than my wife. In addition he begged that we did not report the incident to the ranger or police. As he could easily get our rego from the car we did not report him. He seemed a nice enough sort of bloke, who just had a gun and maybe a misplaced fear of anything outside his tent.

The point is, he was not a Rambo type, but when a rifle is present accidents can happen - no rifle - no accident.

My wife still lives with this memory when ever she looks around at fellow campers. Fortunately she still enjoys our trips, however she will not leave the tent without me in the night.

I believe there is a place for firearms in rural Australia - but not in the recreational 4wd / camping kit. I currently work for the largest privately owned agricultural company in Australia, with a fleet of over 200 Toyota Hiluxes/ 100ser./75's. Out of all these vehicles based rurally there would be less that 20 rifles carried in the company vehicles. These rifles are used for culling roos and at cattle strikes (you can't put a wheel over a beasts head).

Do yourself a favour and get rid of the rifle - you don't need it, and getting rid of it may just stop a situation like what happenned to us.
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Follow Up By: Robert - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:10

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:10
Moggs, because of this one instance where you allege your wife was threatened you automatically assume all gun owners are irresponsible and stupid! Your reasoning seems to be on a par with the anti 4wd people - someone is killed through irresponsible driving of a 4wd and therefore all 4wd's should be banned!

Your ridiculous comment "I suggest you consider moving to the states where you can pursue your gun fetish with like minded individuals. Hope you feel like a real man with your 22" only further highlights that you have a nasty and biased attitude.

As for your comment " run the front or rear tire over neck/head if car is still roadworthy" all I can say is thank goodness not everyone is that callous in the treatment of animals. But instead prefer to be more humane when putting an animal out of its misery.

A large wounded animal that is still quite active is far safer put down with a firearm rather than having to get close enough to kill it by hand (that's assuming you can get close enough). And as for chasing it with your vehicle, in an effort to run over the top of it - no thanks.

What probably most often happens when people don't have a firearm (which would enable them to quickly and safely put down a wounded animal) is that they just don't bother stopping when they hit animal.
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Follow Up By: Member - Moggs - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:33

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:33
Alleged?? It happened - not that I care if you believe it or not. In addition I suggest you re-read my post - I do not automatically assume every gun owner is irresponsible and stupid. Robert, try a bit harder to read and understand the posts before submitting a follow-up. I've never called anything stupid in this forum, however if I was to use that term it would be directed at you.
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Follow Up By: Robert - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 14:02

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 14:02
Moggs,

You make the comment "I suggest you consider moving to the states where you can pursue your gun fetish with like minded individuals. Hope you feel like a real man with your 22" and then you imply I'm stupid - unbelievable!

For anyone to behave with a firearm in the incident that you allege happened would be totally irresponsible and stupid. Surely you're not going to disagree with that?

And were you or were not implying that everyone with a firearm when camping could potentially end up doing something similar to the guy in your alleged incident? If not why mention it? Why then makes the comment: "but when a rifle is present accidents can happen - no rifle - no accident

That is implying every firearm owner is potentially stupid and irresponsible!

If it's not then why say that NO ONE should not have a firearm when camping????
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FollowupID: 6674

Follow Up By: Member - Moggs - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 14:19

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 14:19
Robert, I am just trying to make my point that if you don't have a rifle, you have removed the potential for a firearm accident. I am sure that many responsible, intelligent people have been involved in accidental shootings. I am not trying to label all firearm owners as irresponsible or stupid, and I apologise if I have not expressed myself clearly enough.

I do believe that no-one should have a firearm while recreational camping - this does not mean I believe all are irresponsible and stupid.

Lets just leave it - as dc said its a controversial issue. I probably should not have posted as my views are formed from our bad experience, however I stick by them now they are out there.
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Follow Up By: Truckster - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 20:47

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 20:47
Moggs,
I would have run him and his gun over at 3am as I left...

and then this dribble...

"That is implying every firearm owner is potentially stupid and irresponsible!"

No its not, its saying Accidents happen, even to Cops, Army people and normal shooters..

"And were you or were not implying that everyone with a firearm when camping could potentially end up doing something similar to the guy in your alleged incident?"

Why couldnt it??

And potetially why couldnt it happen again???
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Follow Up By: Robert - Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 13:03

Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 13:03
Why couldn't it?

Because not every firearm owner would be so stupid and irresponsible to:


A. Have a loaded firearm in the tent with them.
B. On hearing a noise emerge from their tent with their firearm.
C. At any time go pointing their firearm at anything unless they know clearly what it is (and that it is what they intend to shoot) and there is no danger to either people or property.

Accidents can happen - no one would disagree with that. But in the scenario that Moggs mentions, if his wife had been shot it would not have been through an accident, it would have been through stupidity and irresponsibility.

Truckster you wrote; "I would have run him and his gun over at 3am as I left..." and you accuse me of dribble!
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Follow Up By: Truckster - Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 22:54

Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 22:54
So Robert, you know every gun owner in the country??? I am not talking of everyone.. Im talking of a few. and they are out there.

You know the bloke that pointed the gun at Moggs Wife? More likely to happen in USA than here, but dont say it wont happen, or couldnt. I know some real meatheads back in Sydney that I wouldnt trust with a water pistol, but they have guns, go out bleep to the eyes shooting... They regularly ask me to go with them, and I bluntly refuse, then the Ozi style name calling starts as Im a wimp etc. Not really I have brains.

So dont say it cant happen. it can... Theres gun accidents all the time with some moron bleep to the eyes out there in the trees with his mates...

Truckster you wrote; "I would have run him and his gun over at 3am as I left..." and you accuse me of dribble!

If someone pointed a gun at your wife like that, what would you do? Hand him a beer and say oh its ok mate, she looks like a deer/rabbit/roo/etc...
Go to smack him in the mouth or take a bat with you hes gonna shoot you.... He doesnt have brains to know the difference by the sounds of it.
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Reply By: Cairns Offroad Training & Tours - Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 17:57

Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 17:57
Sounds like a reasonable and sensible question to me and certainly didn't warrant such a tactless reply. Anyone who takes the time and effort to humanely kill an animal he has been unfortunate enough to have hit is hardly going to be an irresponsible gun owner. By the same token a sharp knife will also do the job quickly and humanely. Moggs will probably point out the inherent dangers of said knife and exhile me also to the good ol US of A.

Cheers Rob
http://www.4wdtraining.com/

AnswerID: 11689

Follow Up By: Member - Moggs - Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 18:08

Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 18:08
Being considerate enough to put an animal out of its misery has nothing to do with responsible gun ownership. My point, which I admit was put forward in a tactless manner, is that situations can develop in which a firearm can be discharged by a 'responsible' gun owner that end in tradgedy. Gun accidents do not need 'intent' to happen and can result from any number of emotive confrontations. If the gun isn't there - no-one gets shot.

And yes - a sharp knife will do the job - however many people would not be able to stomach plunging it in.

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Follow Up By: Robert - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:27

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:27
"If the gun isn't there - no-one gets shot"

with that sort of reasoning then lets also ban alcohol.

If the alcohol isn't available - no-one gets killed by drunk drivers.
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Follow Up By: Member - Moggs - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:38

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:38
Point is Robert, if a gun is present an accident can happen. Drink driving is an entirely different kettle of fish - a conscious decision is made to drive a vehicle when drunk - if you hit someone it is referred to as an accident - I don't think this is an apt description - it is a crime. I stand by the comment that if the gun isn't there no-one gets shot.
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Follow Up By: Robert - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 14:17

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 14:17
The end result is the same : Someone hurt or dead!

Is the bottom line according to you that being killed or hurt accidently by a firearm is tragic and unacceptable. But being killed or hurt by a drunk driver is more acceptable?

The point is that in most situations there is potetial for accidents to happen - That's Life.
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Follow Up By: Member - Moggs - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 14:25

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 14:25
Robert, being killed in either manner is tragic. I agree, in most situations there is potential for accidents, and that yes, that is life.
Lets agree to disagree on the firearm question and leave it at that as we are not really adding anything here.

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Follow Up By: Robert - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 14:50

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 14:50
Hi Moggs,

Your comment: "Lets agree to disagree on the firearm question and leave it at that" - Good idea! I agree.

Cheers
Robert
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Follow Up By: Truckster - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 20:49

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 20:49
Robert posted this followup
"If the gun isn't there - no-one gets shot"
with that sort of reasoning then lets also ban alcohol.
If the alcohol isn't available - no-one gets killed by drunk drivers.


If you would have seen your mates 2 kids run down and killed by a repeat drink driver, you would agree with that idea, also if you were the parent.
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Follow Up By: Robert - Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 13:34

Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 13:34
Truckster,

I am a parent, and if I were unlucky enough to lose my daughter in an accident because of a drunk driver, I would want that drunk driver to pay for his or her actions. I would not call for alcohol to be banned and hence make EVERYONE suffer just because of one irresponsible individual.

My anger would be directed where it should be, at the drunk driver. I wouldn't be making excuses for him or her by blaming it on alcohol.
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FollowupID: 6739

Follow Up By: Truckster - Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 22:59

Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 22:59
Sorry Rob, until it happens to you, how could you honestly say... Either way, to ban or not to ban... Im as guilty as you on that.. There are more and more irresponsible individuals out there drink driving everyweek now. Figures prove that, fear of cops or losing license doesnt work anymore.

yes anger at the person, I would be like the guy on tele in america the other week sitting there listening to some guy describe raping and killing his 3-4yr old.. He tried to jump the counter and kill the prick... I would too. without doubt...

But I dont drink much anymore, so wouldnt bother me if they banned it anyway. But if you mentioned banning it 15+ yrs ago when I was a pi$$head, then I would answer differently.
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Reply By: Member - Melissa - Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 18:34

Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 18:34
DC,

My understanding is that 99% of NP prohibit carrying or using a firearm. There are some exceptions where you are a licenced hunter (eg.Lake Eildon NP allow limited hunting of deer...or they used to). Terms and conditions of permits to enter or cross Aboriginal Reserves specifically prohibit the carrying or use of firearms also. As well, most private property owners are very sensitive to firearms and in my experience will refuse to allow access if you are carrying a firearm.

Another issue is your responsibility as a licenced (presumably) gunholder to keep your firearm secured and in a safe location at all times. Carrying a rifle under the seat in your car for instance, may be interpreted by some police as not being a sufficiently "safe" place, so this is something you will also need to consider.

As to how to humanely put down an injured animal, my Dad always said to break it's neck with a quick, sharp twist (I hate the thought). We have hit 3 roo's over the years and fortunately (if you could call it that), in all cases the roo's were killed instantly so this is a task we've never had to perform. However, I know if we did have ever have to put an animal down we would sooner wring it's neck or use an axe or something than carry a firearm with us on the offchance.

:o) Melissa
AnswerID: 11692

Reply By: forge - Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 23:08

Wednesday, Jan 22, 2003 at 23:08
Then there was the man ( or woman ) who took a mighty swing with his axe ( or shovel ) ,animal moved , he ( or she ) missed , but hit his leg insted . Cut a major blood vessel in his leg , bled to death . I would like frount row seats to watch Milssa brake a roos neak , that has a broken leg , in the middel of knowhere , and is very angry , I think anyone would be quite scrached up . Keep your rifle ,but only get it out when absolutely nessery . Take the bolt out , and keep it seperat , take the rifel apart , and keep all ammunition totaly separate from all other parts .Then only load it ,when you need to , and make sure of what is behind where you,r shooting . Happy travels .
AnswerID: 11717

Follow Up By: Member - Melissa - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 13:55

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 13:55
Forge,

Save your money, there won't be any show with me breaking a roo's neck or swinging an axe. That's what husbands are for...rest assured I'll be cowering on the other side of the car while the deed is done.

:o) Melissa
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Follow Up By: Member - Melissa - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 13:58

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 13:58
BTW Forge, I'm not anti-gun...my father, brothers, uncles etc have all done a bit of shooting (rabbits, foxes etc). I don't have the stomach to shoot an animal but I'm enjoy shooting at targets.

:o) Melissa
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Reply By: sean - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 00:07

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 00:07
DC, its a good question.

I grew up with guns for hunting purposes and still have two shotguns. As kids it was normal for campers to go shooting. These days any sound of a gunshot makes ppl paranoid.

You cant carry them into national parks but also you will find that in WA it is illegal to carry them onto stations without landowners permission.
You will also find that it is illegal to carry them for self defence purposes and putting down wildlife is not a legally legitate reason for owning and transporting one. Under our current gun laws, firearms can only be used for their legitimate ownership purpose and any other use/carrying/transortation is illegal. Check out the gun laws or enquire at a police station.

I find that with current attitutes of the general the public and the current law, its easier to leave it at home and stay on the right side of the law.

As for poor skippy, the back of an axe can be humane adn quick, if you can get close enough.

We live in the NT adn do is not stay out in any trafficked place that we are alone. In the wet the roadside stops are deserted, you would have to be mad to stay in one as a single family. The outback is full of weirdos. And roos are the least of your probls if you drive at night. Camels, horses, cattle, donkeys, buffallo are all on the roads. Hit them and its you that will need dispatching. The point is, I know it easy to hit a roo but with a little care, its not too hard to avoid them.

Its those bloody lizards that I find are hard to miss.

Good luck

Sean
AnswerID: 11725

Follow Up By: Sean - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 18:33

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 18:33
Tragic accident in the NT yesterday where mother lost control of her car which went into the swollen cullen river and her 3 young children were lost. She survived. It is believed she hit something on the road before the accident.

Went to kathererine today and had to hit brakes to miss a large buffalo and 10 minutes later came across a large herd of brumbys.

The biggest risk to your safety is clearly the vehicle you are travelling in.

I know this is a bit off the point but I think it does have some relevance. i think that there are other issues than guns that are more relavant to personal safety and in relevance, the risk of gun owners to others is overstated. About 2000 australians per year die on teh roads. In the outback, most fatalities are single vehicle accidents. Many of those are people serving to miss wildlife. Forget about skippy, for your own safety drive so as to minimise your risk of collision with wildlife.


Sean

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Reply By: Member - Willem- Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 08:43

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 08:43
In years gone by we were allowed to carry firearms around with us. But the place and the laws have changed dramatically in the past 25 years.And 99.9% of gun owners are responsible users and not Rambos.

But, you will find that carrying even an un loaded rifle in a national park will bring severe penalties, if detected. I recently moved from the NT to South Oz and I although I had a NT Gun licence I still had to do a TAFE course and sit an exam plus practical to obtain my SA gun licence. The laws are pretty strict with gun owners these days. The crooks ofcourse, get away with murder.

If you need to dispatch an injured animal then a ball hammer blow to the back of the head would normally suffice. That is, if you can get close enough to the animal. If all else fails call in at the nearest police station and advise them.

Best thing is to try an avoid hitting animals in the first place. Slow down to 80kmh at night in an area where there are lots of roos etc. Watch out for cattle in the northern part of Australia. They can really re-arrange your life if struck. During daylight hours watch out for Wedgies on the side of the road. Drive around Stumpy tail, Blue tongue, Frilled and Bearded lizards. Its not that hard really! Cheers,W
AnswerID: 11733

Reply By: paul - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 10:28

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 10:28
i agree with dc. i rode round Australia including Gibb River Rd etc in '89 on a motorcycle - was very very mindful of collisions with animals, hit a wallaby as a pillion on my dad's bike some years before. So i went forth and did not ride at first light and did not ride at night or dusk and if i had to did so at 80Km or less depending on visibility. Never hit one animal.
AnswerID: 11741

Reply By: Brian - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:14

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 11:14
Dc I think in this day and age you should leave you gun at home!
I understand your sentiments but by carring a gun you are branded. In the past I have carried guns to despatch wildlife but now-a- days it is to much trouble and I have gotten rid of them. To despatch smaller animals use a hammer or lump of pipe, with the larger(horse cow pig buff) ??? you just have to be inventive, rope round the neck pull tight sharp knife?
Don't know have not had to do it in this new era.
I have found that by spending extra on good bull lights that i don't hit as much these days.. Remember you can never have enough light!!

Brian

PS I think you will find that is Ilegeal to discharge a firearm on a public road.
AnswerID: 11747

Reply By: royce - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 22:18

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 22:18
It is not unusual for us to hit kangaroos on our roads. Sad and we try to avoid the situation, but the bull bar get it's value demonstrated. I stop and check the animal and if needed, put it down. I don't have a gun. I wouldn't carry one if I did. I usually have a knife handy. I sometimes have and axe or hammer. This is probably going to stir some response: If there's a joey, I kill that too. There are signs along the road for wildlife refuges, but I feel that sending an injured or immature animal to one of them is worse than ending it quickly. I have had to put cattle down and would use a hammer for preference, now I know where to hit them. I have considered a gun. I'd shoot the foxes and rabbits. But.... knives and hammers don't go off by accident.... hmmm
AnswerID: 11777

Reply By: Meggs - Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 22:39

Thursday, Jan 23, 2003 at 22:39
I think we went through this some time ago on this froum and we had the gun owners on one side and the anti gun owners the other and there didn't seem to be any middle ground in this emotive issue.
About 6 mths ago I was looking at a USA camper trailer newsgroup and one of the subject titles was "Did anyone carry Heat when they went camping". I have never heard this term before when refering to guns. There were a lot of answers and noone that responded carried guns and they had the opinion that you shouldn't take guns camping, I thought it a rather strange response from the USA.
AnswerID: 11780

Reply By: dc - Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 11:37

Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 11:37
well that sparked some people up didnt it? ive come to the conclusion that ill only carry a gun outside of np trips.i actually lived on a farm 4 ten years and yes i have a gun licence and have been ashooter 4 about 17 years .i have never had an"accident" in all that time because if you take safety precautions and use proper hunting technicates "ACCIDENTS DONT HAPPEN".and as for killing a 7foot wounded roo or a pig; buffalo etc with a hammer or knife well lets just say i think yove never seen one never lone actually try and do it!at the min you would be severly scratched or gored .my advice 2 you is shoot it or leave it those technicates on large and very dangerous animals only work in fairyland!
AnswerID: 11803

Follow Up By: Dc - Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 11:46

Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 11:46
sorry about been so terse guys but i think only robert and forge have any real"expieriance about these matters there not silly enough to even attempt 2 kill a pig or roo with a knife as for running it over get real .
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FollowupID: 6732

Follow Up By: Member - Melissa - Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 13:24

Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 13:24
Talk about running over a pig...my brother hit a pig quite a few years back. It went under the bullbar, under the wheel which it shredded along with some panel work with its tusks as it came out the side.

Car was a bit of a mess, but the pig just got up and trotted away. My brother had his rifle with him and he loaded it and kept it with him as he fashioned some repairs...just in case that very angry pig came back.

:o) Melissa
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FollowupID: 6737

Follow Up By: Cairns Offroad Training & Tours - Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 17:42

Friday, Jan 24, 2003 at 17:42
There are plenty of people up here who hunt pigs with dogs and a knoife. Most of them will not allow guns as they consider them far more dangerous than a wild pig. Cheers Rob
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Reply By: Paul - Tuesday, Jan 28, 2003 at 22:18

Tuesday, Jan 28, 2003 at 22:18
Yes i carry a 22 for the same reason, though i have been fortunate enough to have never been in the situation of needing it. I am not a rambo! I have attended all the relevent safety courses and hold all of the necessary licences. Whilst driving, my rifle is securely locked up and separate from the bolt & ammo as required by QLD laws. When i am camping it stays locked away (if my car is not going i cannot hit any animals) - it does not come loaded into the tent with me. If you find it a more humane way to destroy an injured animal with a small calibre rifle(like myself) then do it - just be responsible.

Moggs
You should have reported the guy that pointed a loaded rifle at your wife!! I definately would have!! People like that ARE rambos and give people a bad impression of responsible gun owners (as it has done in your case). If the rifle is locked away separate to the bolt & ammo how can it be possible for an accident to happen??
AnswerID: 12030

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