Hill descents with a automatic.

Submitted: Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 17:23
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Earlier today in a post about auto's and hill descents it was said that the driver could with the right foot hold the revs at 1800rpm and with the left foot apply the brakes. This method would allow the vehicle to back down the hill safely.

I can not see how with one foot you are making the vehicle try to go faster and with the other foot at the same time making the vehicle go slow.

If this is a good method why don't we do it in a manual vehicle or am I missing something.

Wayne
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Reply By: Richard Kovac - Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 17:27

Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 17:27
I think thy may have it in forward

Richard
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Reply By: Exploder - Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 17:55

Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 17:55
Yeah I think it is for when you are going forward down a hill, by apply the brakes and using the right boot at the same time it help prevent the wheels from locking up on a slippery decent or something like that. It is done, as obviously the Auto doesn’t have as good engine braking as a Manuel

Never been game to try it myself, Low range with the Auto in First for me, I have ABS so touching the brakes if need be isn’t such a big problem.
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 19:27

Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 19:27
The Jackaroo ABS is turned off in Low Low below a certain speed.

I wouldn't want the ABS taking over going down a steep hill, I just ride the brake all the way. If it's super steep, I use the handbrake as well.

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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 10:29

Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 10:29
Agree with you there Gerhardp1.

This is the only time I tend to "ride the brakes" as the engine revs are a little too high otherwise. Mine doesn't have ABS, so I don't even have to consider it's effects. Sooner use my own ability anyway.
Bill


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Reply By: Rock Crawler - Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 18:08

Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 18:08
In reverse , all you need to do is make sure your in low range and the vehicle will come down at a good speed , as reverse is a lower gear ratio than first.

Most auto's will out do any manual in a hill climb due to the fact that you can change gears whilst climbing.

The method of aplying brake and accelerator , is to lock up the converter to stop convertor slip , only to be used when facing the dirrection of travel.

There is no real set way , some slipery days , all the above info goes out the window. I have had to turn wheels into a enbankment to come down , even had to have the vehicle in reverse spinnoing the wheels backwards on some real terrible days .

At the end of the day it's all expirience , this comes over years , just don't takle big stuff to begin with and more forward from there.
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Follow Up By: Willem - Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 19:14

Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 19:14
Yes, I remember a memorable bog.....LOL
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Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 16:18

Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 16:18
I went down a steep hill recently in the dry, the car slipped a bit but would be a slipery slide in the wet, is this the kind of situation to go down a hill in reverse, from what I can tell it would be uncontrollable and perhaps a little dangerous. I have not considered reversing before what is a situation where one would consider this technique?
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Follow Up By: Rock Crawler - Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 18:50

Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 18:50
You need to practic all aspects of desent , sometimes there is no option to turn around , so yo uhave to reverse down.

Most hills will have a cliff one one side and a mountain side on the other lol . Stick to the mountain side with you wheel turned into it. For one it will slow you down. Plus I think its better to maby scratch the car than to roll it down the other end.

Other option is to winch down if you have one . But always have in mind that the cable can snap. A contoled winch down with brakes and in gear is always best in horrible situations
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Monday, Mar 13, 2006 at 23:04

Monday, Mar 13, 2006 at 23:04
I could be wrong, but I think Wayne is talking about something I remember reading (on EO????not sure), where the suggestion was that if you are facing down hill.....ie: you are trying to drive down a very steep hill......you can get the vehicle onto the start of the slope, stop it, select reverse gear in the auto box, release the footbrake and continue down the hill (bonnet first, but with gearbox in reverse). I wouldn't be game to try it in any vehicle I own, that's for sure!!!!!!!!!! (but I don't have an automatic)
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Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 at 00:08

Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 at 00:08
To take it a step further Rock Crawler is talking about exactly that, bonnet first and in reverse but with the wheels spinning to slow the descent even further. I have never done this but would suppose it would be quite difficult & I would love to see it where it is so slipery that spinning in reverse is an option.
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Follow Up By: Rock Crawler - Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 at 01:56

Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 at 01:56
I don't think I want to see 0ne again F4phantom lol ,, was a scary day . The further we got up the worse it got , the pin was pulled after the next section had ruts that wouldn't fit my 35's and 5" lift lol . Worse part was we had to winch the vehicle around , due to it been so slippery a turn could not be completed. I was low first and it was impossible to slow the vehicle down due to the slush that was rushing over the run offs . I shoved my front wheels into the mountain side rut and was selecting reverse to spin the wheels back wards . I worked a treat and got us all down the track safely except for a manual vehicle which we winched down first as he could do this maneuver.

Its something I don't want to take the new hundred on but wont think twice about taking the patrol as I have a spare body lol
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Reply By: Member - Jay Gee (WA) - Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 20:14

Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 20:14
Question from Wayne "If this is a good method why don't we do it in a manual vehicle or am I missing something. "

Answer: Because manuals have 3 pedals and we on;y have 2 feet.

(Foot in mouth - couldn't resist a bit of comedy)

AnswerID: 159974

Follow Up By: Wayne (NSW) - Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 20:23

Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 20:23
Jay Gee,

If the good Lord had wanted us to drive a automatic, we would have evolved with only one foot.:-))

Wayne
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Follow Up By: Rock Crawler - Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 22:23

Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 22:23
and if he wanted you to be a car he would have given you wheels instead of balls
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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 10:35

Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 10:35
Wayne,

Good drivers will use left foot breaking in an automatic. Gives total control over braking and accelerating.

God gave us two feet so why not use them!
Bill


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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 10:59

Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 10:59
"Good drivers will use left foot breaking in an automatic. Gives total control over braking and accelerating. "

Agreed, it takes some getting used to, but once you've got it, it's a much safer way to drive. A lot of V8 Supercar drivers left foot brake too.
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Monday, Mar 13, 2006 at 22:54

Monday, Mar 13, 2006 at 22:54
Hi Jeff M

"A lot of V8 Supercar drivers left foot brake too." Thats because they drive manuals not auto's

It will Seattle the car at high speeds

How many time do you see auto drives having the brake lights on when driving at 100 km/hr ?

Richard
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Monday, Mar 13, 2006 at 23:24

Monday, Mar 13, 2006 at 23:24
Ummm, not sure what you're on about with the fact that they drive manuals and not autos... The principle I was talking about was control, and having more of it. They barley use the clutch in the V8's anyway. The principle is the same.

"It will Seattle the car at high speeds "
eh? Please explain?

"How many time do you see auto drives having the brake lights on when driving at 100 km/hr ? "

What's that got to do with the price of cheese in china? But not many to answer your question...
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Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 at 01:50

Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 at 01:50
The reason that they do have a clutch....

That mean the rear wheels a attached to the engine all the time not like a slush box (that's the difference).

The reason they don't use the clutch all the time is they run a constant mesh gearbox

Because applying brake why under drive will square up the car

because they learn to brake with the left foot

Good drivers will use left foot breaking in an automatic. LOL

Richard
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Follow Up By: Rock Crawler - Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 at 01:59

Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 at 01:59
I wouldn't call someone who uses both feet on the street a good driver , but in off road use , it is necessary . Also as pointed , activating a clutch in a manual off road , is a real bad move
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 at 10:19

Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 at 10:19
I'll give you guys the tip, when I'm driving through my son's school everyday to pick him up, and when I drive into my Prac school every thursday, I'm happy to know that in the complete and utter madness of a schools these days, with a cars, kids, bikes, dogs, parents all over the roads, I'm happy knowing that my left foot is riding over the brake ready to pounce. But hey, if that makes me a worse driver than someone who insists on removing their foot of the accellerator, moving their leg and foot accross to the brake pedal, then applying the brake, rather than just applying the brake, then I've obviously got all my priorities in life wrong, but hey each to their own right?
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Follow Up By: Sand Man (SA) - Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 at 13:34

Tuesday, Mar 14, 2006 at 13:34
The left foot braking technique for automatic vehicles is taught to participants in the Jim Murdoch safety driving course.

It was easy for me, as I raced karts for many years and left foot braking was a normal (the only) way to drive.

Once you learn it, you should have far greater reaction skills for slowing and stopping your vehicle.
Bill


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Reply By: Crackles - Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 21:00

Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 21:00
The way I understand it, is when most autos idle slowly down a steep slippery hill under brakes the torque converter is disconnected meaning it's possible for the wheels to lock up & the vehicle slide out of control. By "powering through the brakes" you are minimising the chance of the wheels locking up although additional braking is required. 1800 revs sounds a little high though.
The other braking technique in autos is to drive down a hill in reverse gear using more accelerator to slow down. Normally done with the left foot on the brake but only for very short sections as no doubt it wouldn't take much to overheat the transmission.
Cheers Craig.............
AnswerID: 159979

Follow Up By: Peter 2 - Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 22:01

Saturday, Mar 11, 2006 at 22:01
Never ever try the reverse gear going forward in a late model vehicle it does not work, the electronics detect the wrong gear for the direction of travel and stop the engine!!
No steering and no brakes means big accident or at the very least dirty strides!!
Peter
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 10:55

Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 10:55
Nearly all late model autos are electronically controlled, and nearly all have ABS as well these days.

The ECU programming is the key here. IMHO, when the hill angle sensor detects steepness and/or the vehicle is in low low or low reverse, all functions such as ABS, engine cutout when direction of travel is wrong, should be disabled to avoid undesirable results. In the case of my Jackaroo with ABS, the ABS is disabled in low low and low reverse as long as the speed is below a certain value (which I can't remember exactly, maybe 3500 rpm)

Undesirable results must be the fault of the driver not the electronics.!!

For Example, the latest Mercedes off roader has no lever to select drive, reverse, or park. It just has a button and there is no gear selector switch. Using your example, rolling backwards a bit in low low would immediately stop the engine. You would react by jamming on the brakes (possibly in mortal fear). The ECU now detects that you are stopped and the engine is stopped as well, and it puts it into park for you. Fantastic in the 'burbs, but NBG in the hills!

That's why the ECU programming is critical.
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Reply By: Kiwi Kia - Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 10:44

Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 10:44
This tecnique is sometimes known as "Drive Over Brakeing". or "Left Foot Brakeing"

As already mentioned the torque converter needs to be spinning to provide any mechanical resistance (engine brakeing). If the torque converter is not 'engaged' then you are efectively in 'neutral' and the vehicle will 'freewheel' with no engine brakeing.

To keep the torque converter 'engaged' you need some revs so a little right foot pressure on the accelerator is required. However, to stop the vehicle actually accelerating you use a little left foot pressure on the brake at the same time, hence the term 'Left Foot Brakeing'.

Start by putting your LEFT foot on the foot brake and applying just enough brake to hold the vehicle - do not press hard. Try easing off till the vehicle just starts to move forward and then apply a tiny bit more brake to hold the vehicle. Imagine having an orange between your foot and the brake pedal but not squashing it.

Now apply a little accelerator till the vehicle just overcomes your light brakeing. If you lift your right foot off the accelerator the vehicle should stop moving forward.

This is driving over the top of the brakes - "Drive Over Brakeing" and works very well in automatic transmission vehicles.
AnswerID: 160041

Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 11:04

Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 11:04
Great description. I have used this methos on gravel, mud and HEAPS on sand dunes. It is an absolutally brilliant way to decent steap hills and IMHO I can go slower and have more control than the same manual vehicle in the same situation.
Another way to look at it is that the brakes are stopping the wheels from locking up and the engine is powering the wheels around slowly.
When I do it, my right foot stays still (at about 1500rpm) and I control my speed with my left foot (on the brake). The RPM value will change from vehicle to vehicle as all the torque converters power differently, but a couple of trys on some not so steep hills would be the go first, then once you've mastered it, you'll laugh all the way down the most insaine dunes! ;-)
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Follow Up By: Gerhardp1 - Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 11:05

Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 11:05
Please don't practise this technique for the first time coming down the stony bit at the top of Blue Rag track. :)
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Follow Up By: Kiwi Kia - Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 11:23

Sunday, Mar 12, 2006 at 11:23
Yep, Gerhardp1 is right, practice on a gentle slope in the burbs. The brake pedal in an auto is very large and can easily be used by either right or left foot but it is not a 'normal' feeling for people outside of the USA where almost all vehicles are autos. After a while it will become second nature to use either left or right foot on the brakes.
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Reply By: robak (QLD) - Monday, Mar 13, 2006 at 12:12

Monday, Mar 13, 2006 at 12:12
Yep

I use this methid all the time (going forward).

You apply the brake lightly with your left foot and then press the accelarator with your right to "push" the car down hill. If i want to slow down or stop, I simply ease off the accelarator.

This method also gives you the benefit of "the poor mans locker" or traction control
so that you don't spinn wheels as much if it comes off the ground.

R.
AnswerID: 160212

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