Nissan & biodiesel

Submitted: Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 13:11
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I spoke to Nissan yesterday about the warrenty if using Bio fuel. Their response was that Nissan has no policy but the fuel injector companies do - use biodiesal and no warrenty. The discussion got interesting when it was said that in Brazil they run almost 100% bio and in Europe about 50% - even Mercs use it.
The question is what is different in Aus? Are the fuel injectors out here made differently (too much plastic perhaps) or maybe - there is not enough $$ for the Government or that the Petroleum companies are up somebody to protect their turf. Either way - I feel we are been dudded here and preventing a whole new farming economy the opportunity to grow something that is really needed (and Aussie owned). Interesting in the USA Willie Nelson has given his name biodiesel fuel that is opening up all over the USA. I look forward to the day we have a bio fuel depot down the road at say 60c/litre - dream on.
Happy holidays to all who are heading north.
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Reply By: Sand Man (SA) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 13:35

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 13:35
I would suspect it is more like total ignorance and indifference by the local Fuel Injector Company representatives.

Ignorance is bliss when it comes to lack of product knowledge, so they just protect themselves with the "no warranty" crap.

BUT, should a competitor come out and say, "No worries - we will support biodiesel" then everyone else would, to remain in business.

Like you have pointed out, biodiesel in a multitude of recipes, is common throughout Europe and other countries.
Bill


I'm diagonally parked in a parallel Universe!

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Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 13:35

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 13:35
I look forward to the day we have a bio fuel depot down the road at say 60c/litre - dream on

there already are servos/depots selling biodiesel, for $1.20+ a ltr.. your smoking crack if you think any form of diesel/bio or otherwise will ever be anything remotely near $.90 or less
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Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 14:24

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 14:24
............and you wouldn't wanna go sticking it in that 3L or yours Truckster, eh????!!!!!!!!!!!! hahahahahahaha
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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 15:50

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 15:50
Talking to a trucky mate in Broken Hill he didn't have a good word to say about the bio-fuels. Had recieved some unfiltered fuel even to the extent of being black and having chop bones in the bottom of the tankful. Had the supplier take it back again. Being BH it would probably come through your supplier Bill. I won't mention the SA** brand but that was what he told me. When it was in the tank it blocked the filters and they took extras for every trip. It also had to go through faster to keep the power up to the motor. He would take a lot of convincing to try it again.
Cheers,
Who?
John

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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 17:47

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 17:47
but i would in the other 1.2ltr :P
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 23:19

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 23:19
There are a lot of rumours about crap Biodiesel be it from SAFF, or elsewhere ...

Most of them are not true. Some have a resemblence to the truth, but are still far from it.

I am very confident about SAFF fuel quality - I have used it for 6 mo and 60Ks about 70% of the time.

They have had one contamination incident in their history (not their fault directly, except it took them too long to notice) a long time ago. I'm sure they regret it. I'm sure it won't happen again.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Reply By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 14:51

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 14:51
As most people on here know, I'm running B100 in a 1kz-te (mines a surf, but the same as the prado and older 3.0L TD Hilux's). Runs better than ever. Oil does break down a little, it was a little watery after my last change, mind you I was using mineral oil not a synthetic on the last run. I've changed back to Penrite Jap Diesel Semi Synthetic and we'll see how that goes. But in saying that, the oil is only slightly black even after 5000k's, it takes about 1000k's for it to get dirty! I' guess it can't be anyworse than the vegimite that used to come out after 5k on petro diesel. Also I do a lot of short runs which would not help.

But with more power, better economy, a cheap purchase price, more engine lubrication via fuel and no waiting around at the servo - I'm rapped with not paying the oil mongrals anymore...
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Follow Up By: big fella - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 16:30

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 16:30
hi jeff i was wondering if you make your own and if so what recipe do you use (looked already at the bio diesel web site) and if so do you have any photos of your set up

Regards BigFella
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 16:37

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 16:37
No I'm buying it from a guy who manufactuers and sells his own in Perth. You can stop in at his business and fill up or he delivers 200L drums to your door.
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Follow Up By: big fella - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 16:48

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 16:48
how much is he charging for the 200l
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Follow Up By: mick - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 17:15

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 17:15
Hey Jeff,

Where in Perth do we get it and how much.

Mick
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 20:26

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 20:26
I've done myself a disservice by promoting this guy too much so I won't give his name out again, it's in the archices if you want to have a look through. Due to demand and supply my price has now gone from $1.10 per litre to $1.20 - free delivery.
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Reply By: Paul from Denco Diesel and Turbo - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 16:23

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 16:23
I have asked our Bosch Diesel Technical Scott Wood to give his response to the concerns being raised here:

The problem with the word “biodiesel” is that it is a very loose term and there are varying qualities. As far as I am aware, there are few problems that occur with relation to engine components failure with using biodiesel. The same problems with using biodiesel can not be said with regards to the fuel injection component failures.

While some biodiesel fuels seem to be okay, we have seen massive failures as a result of some of the so called biodiesels

You must take into consideration, vehicles fitted with rotary or common rail style pumps that the diesel fuel is being used to lubricate these high pressure components (now reaching pressures of 28000 psi).

While I believe there is a place for biodiesel I would not use it in my own diesel vehicle, regardless of the cost.

Leading fuel injection manufactures Bosch, Denso, Delphi, Stanadyne and Siemens have all signed a joint Worldwide agreement stating that they “cannot guarantee their products against performance or emission failures if inappropriate fuels have been used”.

Most fuel systems are now being developed inline with EN590 (European Fuel Standard) for fuel which has the lubricity properties required for the high pressure injection now required to meet emission standards.

To my knowledge, no fuel injection systems have been designed to run on biodiesel although some will.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 16:36

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 16:36
Because of the nature of Biodiesel, it has up to 10 times the lubricating properties of petro diesel. With this in mind, why would it effect the rotary or common rail style pumps from lubricating their high pressured components?
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 17:48

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 17:48
Good work Paul, nice reply.
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Follow Up By: Member - Bruce and Anne - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 19:58

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 19:58
From what I have read, some people might be out of a job if we all get to use it.
But then again we've test in our old Isuzus and the boys are saying no problems after 12 months/ 40ks. Imagine all the old Toyotas, etc if they would have been able to use biodiesel the amount of injector pumps not having to be repaired.
MY 2 cents worth tonight, High fuel prices are giving me the s""ts.
No cheers tonight Bruce
Cheers Bruce
D.Max and Jayco Outback

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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 23:59

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 23:59
Paul,

This is plain FUD: fear uncertainty and dread - what are the alleged massive failures you speak of? You are not arguing a position at all, nor making a recommendation - you see a place for Biodiesel, but can't say where.

For sure - Biodiesel can be made in my backyard or yours - in fact, in your kitchen for that matter. It will have varying properties - just as diesel from fossil fuels has varying properties. In the case of Biodiesel, this is affected by the feedstock out of which it is produced.

So, I don't expect anyone to warrant an engine or injector when I am using my home brew (although they couldn't be expected to be able to work it out).

However, I don't use my home brew.

All retail Biodiesel in Australia complies with the Fuel Standard (Biodiesel) Determination 2003 - there is a big financial incentive for this to happen - a rebate!

The standard, especially the testing regime is a higher standard in the applicable details than any petro-diesel sold in Australia.

Thankfully the commercial Biodiesel suppliers warrant their product, in the same way that engine failure caused by crap petro-diesel from the major suppliers (it has happened to me - the crap fuel, not the engine failure) is a problem for the supplier and not the vehicle manufacturer.

All diesel sold in France, for instance though, contains 5% Biodiesel!!! even though it still complies with the Diesel std you mentioned.

Which fuel standard equipment has been developed for is a little irrelevant - for one thing, many of the vehicles and especially the injectors, are older than the standard. For another, just because they were developed for one fuel standard doesn't mean that there will be problems using some other fuel.

The common position you mention is rather irrelevant too, because it dates back to 2000 - 6 years ago, when it said:

The world's biggest diesel fuel injector equipment (FIE) makers -- Bosch, Delphi (formerly Lucas), Denso, and Stanadyne -- just unveiled new "common position statements" warning of denials of warranty claims if fuels fail to meet certain quality standards.

NOTE THE LAST PHRASE. For sure, if they knew of the massive failures you allege, they would have made a very big point of it - and they haven't.

Sure - if there are quality standards issues, denial of warranty claims is understandable, but they will not deny warranty claims just because you used Biodiesel.

There is plenty of research indicating that Biodiesel has no detrimental effect on fuel system components. Major companies like Scania and Mercedes Benz are prepared to fully support the use of Biodiesel in their vehicles in Scandinavia and other European markets ... and guess where they get their injectors from - the same bin that supplied them to all sorts of other manufacturers.

There's always some risk in the world ... but worrying about Biodiesel's effects on my engine is not a high order problem.

Ciao for now
Andrew.
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Jun 08, 2006 at 00:04

Thursday, Jun 08, 2006 at 00:04
Well said Andrew.
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Reply By: revhead307 - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 17:20

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 17:20
On a similar note,

I rang 2 local nissan service centres, asking what potential seals on my 1988 GQ patrol may need replacing if I run Bio-diesel (or if they would be ok).

They didnt have any answers for me at all, but suggested i ring the local fuel injection specialist, who just wanted to charge $900 to fit new seals and recalibrate my fuel pump (not what i was after).

It will be a long time before the industry sees bio-diesel as a mainstream fuel, and accomodates it accordingly IMHO.

Rev

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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 20:24

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 20:24
They are going to have to hurry up and get educated because Gull Petrollium over here in the west (quite a resonable sized player in the local market) has been selling B20 at the bowser for a couple of months now...
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Follow Up By: revhead307 - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 20:40

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 20:40
Yeah, I have been filling up with B20 in Bunbury. (its definitely cut down on my smoke)

I agree Gulls offering is a commercial start, but until we gett a few B100's across WA from Gull or others large chains, it will take a while for the publics perception (this forum not included) to change from the back yard fish and ship shop alternate fuel.

It WILL happen eventually...I Just think it will take a while.

I'd love to make it if i could, or even source it from ur guy in Perth. At the mo neither is practical.

Rev
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 21:17

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 21:17
I think it will be very difficult to legally prove that someone has been using B20 in order to void their vehicle warranty. In fact I doubt that they can even void a vehicle warranty as I'm pretty sure that comes under the consumables act which is why manufactuers can't void warranties for using Ryco filters or using a non genuine ink in your computer's printer. Gull's B20 meets Australian fuel standards, so they are really up bleep creek IMHO. They can say till the cows come home that it'll void your warranty, however I doubt it would hold up in a court of law.

As I said, I think these manufactuer's and more importantly the un-educated representatives of these organisations had better get educated fast, otherwise they are going to start looking pretty dumb in front of a lot of people by making claims about bio fuels that are simply not true.

People are already looking for someone to blame for high fuel prices and conspiracy theories are ripe. People jumping onto the "oh don't use bio fuels cos they are bad cos we don't really know why but we'll make some crap up to spread doubt in people's minds" are going to be the first ones knocked off their perches by the blame hungry public.

And for those people with the opinion of "I won't use biodiesel no matter what the cost". There is of course the personal monetary cost, but what about the cost to the environment for our children? What about the cost to local farmers?

My children's future is enough reason for me without the other advantages of using a cheaper costing, recycled, renewable and cleaner burning fuel that's better for my engine.
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Follow Up By: Muzzgit (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 23:08

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 23:08
Jeff, this is quoted from the above response by Paul from Denco Diesel &Turbo.

" While some biodiesel fuels seem to be okay, we have seen massive failures as a result of some of the so called biodiesels "

While I am in no way suggesting you don't know what you are talking about, seeing that Paul works in the industry, I think the above statement should be a warning to drivers of all EFI and common-rail TD engines.

The question still remains, and it seems that you cannot answer it.........

What is the long term effect of using biodiesel, if any, good or bad, on my 3.0 TDi patrol?

Secondly, I dissagree with your response that it would be impossible to prove that a car has been run on biodiesel. And I also have no doubt that any manufacturer or warranty provider could void a warranty, mainly because the use of anything other that the word "diesel" does not appear in the owners manual / service handbook / any other written information in relation to my car! And their ability to get out of it is better than your or my abilty to prove they can't.

I'm glad there are people like yourself who are prepared to go out on a limb and try this new fuel, and I look forward to hearing about your results, good or bad, but, selling the product as if there is absolutely nothing wrong with it when you cannot categorically present scientific evedence one way or the other is wrong.

I hope you are right, believe me.

Cheers,

MUZZ
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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 23:55

Wednesday, Jun 07, 2006 at 23:55
Muzz, I mean no disrespect to Paul's knowledge of the topic, but I do not know how long he has been researching Biodiesel fuels and it's effects on engines.

Personally, I have been researching it for nearly 2 years now. There is an absolute wealth of information on the long term effects of running B100 in unmodified diesel engines, just do a google search. There are many, many, many fleets running B100 in europe, Australia and America without issues, in fact many claiming better results than running Petro diesel in economy, power and maintenance issues (wear and tear on motors that have been pulled apart have shown less wear on those running biodiesel than those running petro desiel.

I do not have first hand experience with a ZD30 engine running on Biodiesel as I myself have not read or experienced it personally. So no I cannot tell you the long term effects on one of these motors, to be honest is the ZD30 going to last long enough to worry about long term effects?! (tounge in cheek).

I do not know a great deal about ZD30's injection system, but cannot see why a extremely complicated electronically controlled high performance CAT engine could run on it and a ZD30 couldn't, but that's just an assumption of mine.

I do know that my engine is EFI and has sensors left right and centre, including air temp, fuel temp, turbo pressure, throttle position, crank angle, fuel pressure, oil pressure etc etc etc and has no problems after 800L of B100 going through it non-stop.

I said nearly impossible. How would a manufactuer proove it? It would require some pretty decent lab equipment I should think. I doubt you're local Nissan dealership has access to this gear, nor would bother to go to those extremes.

Gull's B20 meets Australian standards for diesel fuel, ergo it IS diesel fuel. It is sold as diesel fuel from the bowser by a reputable fuel supplier and therefore would make a pretty strong case against any potential claim to void a warranty by using it in my mind.

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Follow Up By: Member - Jeff M (WA) - Thursday, Jun 08, 2006 at 00:07

Thursday, Jun 08, 2006 at 00:07
I would be interested to add this information of Paul's into my collection of research on Biofuels too. Could he supply some information on these "massive failures"? Maybe some photo's with an explination of exactly what component failed massivly and why the Biofuel was to blame?

So far the only failure's I've heard of caused by biofuels were rubber seals being ruined. Of course all ULSD (ultra low sulphur diesel) will cause these problems and seeings as that's the only petro diesel being sold now days it really is a non-issue...
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Reply By: FZJ 80 - Friday, Jun 09, 2006 at 22:26

Friday, Jun 09, 2006 at 22:26
Jeff.

BMW diesels have a sticker on the fuel cap with biodiesel crossed out in red. The new engines in BMW diesels run up to 1600 bar pressure, which is almost 24000 psi! The injectors have holes that the fuel sprays through that are almost invisible, in fact they are so small that water droplets are too large to pass through. I understand that BMW believe that the likelyhood of contamination of biodiesel is higher than regular diesel. The tolerances now days in these extreme pressure diesels is quite extraordinary. Also the sophistication of these systems with particle filters,cat convertors etc and other emmision devices raises another theory being burn rate,temperature of burn etc. As previously mentioned biodiesel could be an unknown quality in varoius areas,suppliers. I can understand the injection guys views.

Regards

Greg
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