4X$ AUST MAG June - "TYRE MYTH BUSTERS" what a joke .
Submitted: Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:34
ThreadID:
35397
Views:
3950
Replies:
16
FollowUps:
23
This Thread has been Archived
Member - Willie , Epping .Syd.
Do these guys ever go off road , or do they just drive along dirt roads all the time ?
Their heading and subsequent expert commentary is below .
"MYTH 2 : TYRE SIDEWALLS ARE THE WEAK LINK
Any tyre repair facility can tell you that most punctures are through the tread .......
.....It is possible to pinch a sidewall between the rim and a rock or slash the sidewall on a tree root , but these punctures are statistically much rarer than through-tread punctures "
Here are the details of tyre failure on my 8 week trip which involved a lot of off road ( read no road ) activity .
Four cars on the Clelands trip had a total of 8 punctures - all sidewall stakes .
Three cars on the
Gibson Desert trip had 14 punctures - all bar one in the sidewall .
So , adding that up , we get a total of 22 punctures - 21 in the sidewall and one through the tread .
I honestly think that journalist Allan Whiting should get off road and get some experience before he writes such drivel in a national 4WD magazine .
Maybe he was diirecting his comments at people who never go off road , but if that was the case , he should have made that point .
I met Ron Moon out at Durba Springs a couple of weeks ago . Ron is the Editor at Large of 4x4 Mag . I put this same comment to him and he went very quiet .
I guess the answer to this sort of drivel is to take everything you read in the mags with a grain of salt . Sift through the articles and try to confirm their ideas with other people . There was some good stuff in Allan Whitings article as
well as this shocker , so I guess you just have to be careful and don't believe everything you read .
Cheers ,
Willie .
Reply By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:36
Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:36
That should be "4X4 Mag" not "4X$ Mag"
AnswerID:
181070
Follow Up By: ro-dah-o (WA) - Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:42
Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:42
For the cost of some magazines and the actual lack of quality content, yeah, 4x$ sounds about right
FollowupID:
437404
Follow Up By: Gramps (NSW) - Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:42
Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:42
naah, Freudian slip Bro. 4X$ is about right :)))))))
FollowupID:
437406
Follow Up By: Gramps (NSW) - Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:44
Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:44
Hmmm, seems we were thinking out loud ro-dah-o. Who needs a radio :)))))))
FollowupID:
437407
Follow Up By: ro-dah-o (WA) - Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:48
Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:48
and ill be bold enough to say that when others read this post they may think the same!!
FollowupID:
437409
Follow Up By: Geoff (Newcastle, NSW) - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 11:28
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 11:28
I'm with you three on this one, $x$ might be the only correction I'd make.
Geoff.
| Geoff,
Grey hair is hereditary, you get it from children. Baldness is caused by watching the Wallabies.
Lifetime Member
My Profile My Blog Send Message |
FollowupID:
437535
Reply By: Member No 1- Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:38
Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:38
my four (4) offroad flats invloved stakes thru the sidewall in 3
AnswerID:
181071
Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:51
Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 17:51
Myth off Nudie , that is just not possible . I know , I read it .
FollowupID:
437410
Reply By: Member - Stephen L- Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 21:54
Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 21:54
Hi Willie,
Spot on mate. When we did my Simpson Geo Expedition in May, we did over 500kms of pure off road driving through the central
Simpson Desert in the Northern Territory. The biggest problem that my group encountered were punctures, we lost count, and all but 1 were side wall punctures from that lovely mulga wood that was everywhere we went. The only vehicle in our group that was exempt from punctures was the tail vehicle, as us front vehicles cleared the pass and by the time the last vehicle went through, us front vehicles made sure that the wood was in our tyres and not his.
Stephen
AnswerID:
181114
Reply By: The Rambler( W.A.) - Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 21:56
Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 21:56
Willie,
I am not saying I don't agree with your comments but I would have a guess that of the 22 sidewall "punctures" that you guys had in the four cars were all with wider soft wall tyres.Its seems amazing how many trips I have done all over the rough stuff using split rims with "skinny" tyres and no damage.I have seen endless tyre damage to sidewalls on other cars over the years and in my opinion nearly all using the wrong tyres for the terrain.
AnswerID:
181115
Follow Up By: disco1942 - Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 23:32
Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 23:32
Spot on Rambler – people seem set on these wide tyres but only the truck section use tyres over 7” on the Dakar Rally. Must say something about fat tyres.
PeterD
FollowupID:
437475
Follow Up By: Member - MrBitchi (QLD) - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 07:43
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 07:43
From memory the Dakar guys run on a control tyre......
FollowupID:
437492
Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 10:50
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 10:50
Hi Rambler ,
You guesssed wrong . Two out of the three cars had 6.5 inch rims . But the fact that they had 6.5" or 8" wide rims has no relevance , as these tyres can all have vulnerable sidewalls .
The only way to get away from these staked sidewall problems is to run rag tyres on split rims . However there is no split rim made for my Landcruiser 100 TD IFS and even if there was , there are problems with insurance because these rag tyres are not speed rated to match the performance of these cars .
Cheers ,
Willie
FollowupID:
437528
Reply By: Twintrail(W.A.) - Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 23:05
Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 23:05
Hi Rambler, Remember the last trip eg GRR and the only tryes that had problems were the boots that they drive in sand.235 R85 16 seem to be the go.Too the woods.Regards Twintrail.
AnswerID:
181124
Reply By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 23:56
Thursday, Jun 29, 2006 at 23:56
Would be interesting to know what pressures and loads they were running when they did the tests. Another couple of Q's would be whether the tyres were "P" rated or "LT" rated, and what profile they were running.
AnswerID:
181131
Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L- Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 08:24
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 08:24
GaryInOz
We are no beginners in outback travel, and where we went, low tyre pressures were the order of the day. (14psi front and 16psi rear) and they were LT tyres and not P. Each vehicle was carring in excess of 100 litres of
water, a total fuel capcity of 300 litres of diesel plus all the gear for a very remote outback trip. Only people who have been where we went will only know how tough it is out there. We were the 16th group EVER to visit
Geosurveys Hill since 1993 and only the 8th group through since 1998, an average of only 1 group through per year. There were NO TRACKS to follow at all, so anyone that suggest it is easy to avoid punctures out there, let them do the same trip, and only then let them comment on side wall tyre troubles. It is easy for the arm chair traveller to make comments on this and that, but until them are out there it is wise not to comment at all.
Stephen
FollowupID:
437498
Follow Up By: GaryInOz (Vic) - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 15:08
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 15:08
Stephen L,
The questions were addressed at the original posing of author involved in the writup in the 4X4 magazine, and had nothing to do with your expedition.
I have driven all over Victoria (
Mallacoota to
Mildura), across into SA (Beechport/
Robe), and into outback NSW/QLD for 13 of the last 25 years in everything from sand, bush, mud, and snow, through to the occasional gibber tracks. I'm not exactly an "armchair" traveller..................................
FollowupID:
437573
Follow Up By: Member - Stephen L- Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 19:53
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 19:53
Hi GaryInOz,
Sorry if I took your reply the wrong way. I thought that you were siding with Rambler. There have been many times on this
forum that some people have made comments, and from their replies, do not know what it is like out there in the real 4X4 world. Any person that has travelled remote outback off road situations know that side wall punctures are a real problem and can cost the driver lots of money in replacement tyres. On our trip, we had brand new tyres and at the end of the trip, 2 tyres were side wall damaged. We plugged them to get us out of
the desert, but now are in the shed as back up, back up tyres.
Stephen
FollowupID:
437625
Reply By: Muzzgit (WA) - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 00:30
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 00:30
A lot of the rubbish written by these mags is written for doompkhoffs who don't/can't/shouldn't go 4WDriving. Yeah sure, there's lots of wicked modified
rock crawlers, and awesome customised tourers. Heck, even some ExploreOz members have featured in this mag, but most of the real people are out there doing it, not sitting at
home drooling over a 4WD mag and playing with themselves.
I used to be a subscriber to 4WDMonthly, but I have given up on reading comparisons that don't make sense. I came to the conclusion more than a few times that the printed result of some of these "tests" are tweaked to glorify particular big name brands, but a "noteable mention" goes to the no name budget product that came equal second or was a knats pube behind the leading pack.
Kind of like the Socceroos. Not allowed to play with the big boys.
AnswerID:
181135
Reply By: GoneTroppo Member (FNQ) - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 08:01
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 08:01
I'm new to this
forum, I've found over the years that tyres is always a good recipe for a loooooong debate.
Came across this article a little while ago it has soem interesting points to make.
Might even settle a few arguments and misconceptions
www.beadell.com.au/tyre_information.htm
I have always been in the "tall and skinny"
camp (the tyres, not me personally)
However I'm finding in trying to replace OE tyres on F250 the choice is limited to wide wider and even wider because of the required load rating ie 123.
Seems that looks is overriding function.
AnswerID:
181144
Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 10:56
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 10:56
They suggest rag tyres on this site , and this fellow really knows a lot about "no road" travel - but as I mentioned above , you need splits if you want to repair them on your trip , and you have insurance problems witrh rags on modern cars .
Cheers ,
Willie .
FollowupID:
437529
Reply By: Paul Cotter - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 11:00
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 11:00
MYTH 2 : TYRE SIDEWALLS ARE THE WEAK LINK
Quote"Any tyre repair facility can tell you that most punctures are through the tread .......
.....It is possible to pinch a sidewall between the rim and a
rock or slash the sidewall on a tree root , but these punctures are statistically much rarer than through-tread punctures"
First post and I have to disagree with the general trend of this post. Whiting states, and I quote: "Any tyre repair facility can tell you that most punctures are through the tread" Statistics would have to prove this statement correct. Most tyre fitting Stores would,as a rule, repair more tread punctures than see sidewall punctures on fourbies.
Also, as a percentage, we would have to be a minority when compared to the average use of a fourby today.
My recommendation to those that disagree would be to take of the rose coloured glasses and realise that we are the ones that use our vehicles as they are designed for and therefore risk the damage as described BUT we are a minority.
Cheers
Paul
AnswerID:
181182
Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 11:40
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 11:40
Hi Paul ,
If the article was in Modern Motor , I would agree with you , but it is not , it is in a specialist 4WD magazine . Off course we are are a minority , that is why we read a 4WD magazine aimed at a minority .
If you print statements like this, you should qualify them . Their statements are misleading and stupid .
Just imagine you were new to four wheel driving , and about to head off up the CSR and do some "off track" work while up there . You read this article and think to yourself "so that stuff about staking sidewalls is all crap eh - I think I will just take one spare and just a basic plug repair kit ".
Ooops .
Willie
FollowupID:
437537
Follow Up By: Kiwi Kia - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 11:42
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 11:42
I appreciate your reasoning but I don't think you quite right saying..
"and realise that we are the ones that use our vehicles as they are designed for"
I think that most manufacturers do not design & build thier 4x4's for the treatment we give them. They build them for snow, ice and rough & sometimes slippery roads but we deal to them a worse then that !
Ask any vehicle manufacturer about fitting recovery hooks and they will run a mile rather then commit themselves. It's the after market companies that really do the design work that transforms our utility vehicles into off-road machines. I agree with you that we are in the minority.
FollowupID:
437538
Reply By: equinox - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 15:29
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 15:29
Couldn't agree more Willie,
If you take a good look at the editors and most contributors of 4WD mags and then compare them with the owners of the companies that advertise in them you'll notice that they are all (mostely) tied up together someway. So be very careful before taking what is written as fact.
Western 4WD mag is a classic example.
AnswerID:
181241
Reply By: Longreach - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 17:17
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 17:17
A timely post.
I received the latest edition to a popular 4WD mag last week and afer reading though decided this
forum leaves the magzines for dead in terms of useful, relevant and interesting info. The magazines clearly have to cater to the providers of
test vehicles and equipment and they seem to be forever diving off into armchair articles about nothing. I might be treading on thin ice here, but this magazine has a comparison of a Hummer, A Rangie and a Lexus - I mean, who cares.
OK, I will now take cover.
AnswerID:
181255
Reply By: Member - Prickle (SA) - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 17:36
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 17:36
Willie,
Tend to agree with you, out of 3 punctures, 2 were side wall. Hi lux and 100s.
Had quite a few others in the Hi Lux, all were on split rims, and a due to rust in the rims which chafes the tyres and hence - flatties.
Cant be avoided if you drive in water. Give the split rims a miss.
Regards
AnswerID:
181258
Follow Up By: Brew69(SA) - Saturday, Jul 01, 2006 at 21:17
Saturday, Jul 01, 2006 at 21:17
give the powder puffs a miss too mate.
FollowupID:
437735
Reply By: The Rambler( W.A.) - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 20:18
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 20:18
GaryIn Oz,
Iagree with your comments as some weriters of posts believe that they are the only ones ever to travel
the desert country or outback country.I will continue to travel the outback with my "skinny" tyres that I have done for years and I am sure the 235/85 AT Hankooks will continue to keep rooling on.
AnswerID:
181288
Reply By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 21:07
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 21:07
Good debate.
I thought the same as Willie when I saw the statement - especially since two weeks ago in the north Simpson, we had 5 tyres staked on 6 vehicles. But thats all a case of where you go, and what you do. And we all know that 4wd mags do not go where Willie, Stephen L and I have been in the past month.
I think Paul is correct too - most tyre fitters in the bush have to repair tread punctures. Its the combination of heavy loads, too much speed, high pressures, and weak tyres.
And Willie's throw away line that "all you need is one spare and a plug kit" actually has a bit to commend it. We repair almost all punctures with plugs - far and away the simplest, best system in our experience, and no vehicle that I've been away with over the past 6 years has damaged a tyre beyond repair - that seemed to stop about 6 years ago when we learned about lowering the pressures.
Cheers
phil
AnswerID:
181298
Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 21:51
Friday, Jun 30, 2006 at 21:51
Phil ,
Out of the five tyres I personaly staked in the
Cleland Hills and the
Gibson Desert , only three could be repaired with plugs ( single or multiple spagetti ! ) . Two of them required patches and a tube .
Cheers ,
Willie .
FollowupID:
437642
Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Jul 01, 2006 at 18:21
Saturday, Jul 01, 2006 at 18:21
Hi Willie,
Real bummer when you have to get the irons out. Must have had some big holes. The few I've been unable to plug have been slashed - either by low-life around town or one with a piece of slate.
The "Tech" brand plugs and glue (from the wholesaler) have been good for me. Worst plugs are the extra long skinny black ones you get in some of the shops - never seen one of them work.
I know someone who runs Tagalongs in the deserts - he replaced his 6
tyres when they had a total of 37 plugs in them :-))
Cheers
phil
FollowupID:
437717
Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Saturday, Jul 01, 2006 at 18:43
Saturday, Jul 01, 2006 at 18:43
Phil ,
I agree about those long skinny plugs that come with those ceap sets that have the plastic handles that break off and cut your hand .
I have a big box of plugs from that importer who brings in all the patches and tyre repair
accessories from Europe . They are thicker and a light brown colour and are called "SAFETY SEAL".
A couple of times I had two plugs in a sidewall hole and they still slow leaked . I tried moving them round a bit and also pulled them out and put new ones in but the tyre was always flat in the morning . I notice you said you use the glue with yours , but this is something I have never done . What is your experience with this ?
Thanks ,
Willie .
FollowupID:
437720
Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Jul 01, 2006 at 21:08
Saturday, Jul 01, 2006 at 21:08
Hi Willie,
There's different techniques with different kits.
As you know, the Safety Seal kit has the glue impregnated into the plug. It comes with some lubricant to make it easy to slip the plug into the hole. For this to work OK, the plug needs to fit tight in the hole and the plugs need to be FRESH - otherwise they dry out and don't work as well.
Most other kits, including the Tech brand stuff I use, supply the vulanising fluid (glue) separately. So the first tool is designed to put glue to the inside of the hole, and the second tool gets loaded with the plug. You need to smear plenty of glue on the plug before you slip it in.
The Tech plugs come individually wrapped in blue plastic to prevent them from drying out. The tech glue is the same vulcanising fluid you would use to apply their patches.
Can I suggest that in future, you use vulcanising fluid instead of lubricant when slipping in the plugs. I reckon your seal rate will come close to 100%. I reckon over the past 7 years, I've plugged and seen plugged probably 50
tyres, all using plenty of glue, and on
tyres that are inflated with a pump running and leaks are uncommon. Like you say, you may occasionally need a 2nd or 3rd plug.
Those brown plugs are pretty common, and I've seen them used with all sorts of glue - Rema stuff (both special cement and the clear cement), the cheap white tubes and the Tech brand stuff, and all seem OK.
Repco sell those plugs in packs of 30 for about $15, and sell a nice large can of glue with it.
The following is the stuff I like:
FollowupID:
437731
Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Saturday, Jul 01, 2006 at 22:23
Saturday, Jul 01, 2006 at 22:23
Phil ,
Thanks a lot for the info and for sending the photo . I will make enquiries at my Repco store and take some Tech plugs and glue on my next trip .
Hopefully I will be in a position to get many more punctures in the future .
Cheers ,
Willie .
FollowupID:
437747
Follow Up By: Member - Phil G (SA) - Saturday, Jul 01, 2006 at 22:50
Saturday, Jul 01, 2006 at 22:50
No worries, Willie.
I may have misled you - Repco don't have the Tech stuff. The Tech stuff has to be obtained through a tyre dealer or directly from the Tech wholesaler - I have a mate who did a "bulk" order. I think the plugs come in a box of 50.
Repco have the brown plugs and glue under the "Slime" brand. The glue comes in a nice size can with applicator brush. I reckon the plugs you have will be fine as long as you use glue with them.
Cheers
Phil
FollowupID:
437748
Reply By: Off-track - Sunday, Jul 02, 2006 at 22:25
Sunday, Jul 02, 2006 at 22:25
If I am not mistaken (from memory here) this article was done by Cooper
Tyres??? A brand that has taken some hits for having 2ply sidewalls as opposed to 3 on the BFG. Coincidence?
AnswerID:
181505
Reply By: Member - Davoe (Nullagine) - Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 21:38
Tuesday, Jul 04, 2006 at 21:38
Certainly agree and had the same thought as you. i reckon my MTR possibly have simular tread strencth to rag
tyres but after copping some sidewall puncturres they are definitly the weak link to the operation. i tried low pressures but this just exposes the vulnerable sidewalls and had hissing sounds within minutes of leaving the bitumen. I never copped a sidewall stake while crosscountry driving with rags at 40psi
AnswerID:
181851
Follow Up By: Member - Willie , Epping .Syd. - Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 18:14
Wednesday, Jul 05, 2006 at 18:14
Hi Davoe ,
I was thinking of you as I shot though Widgi last month on my way home . I bought an icecream and diesel at the servo at
Nullagine - how are you liking your new job ?
Willie .
FollowupID:
438330