Dangerous 4WD drivers

or his teenage son makes wild and passionate love to a power pole in his HSV Maloo V8 ute...............might make his mind focus on the real problem.

I was a little sickened by that comment. where does an attitude like that come from? Steve is a complete idiot

Andrew...

I doubt if he believes his own writing. It hard to imagaine that someone with enough intelligence to read and write would have an attitude like that.

Unfortunately Ray, there's a growing number of people around with attitudes not too dissimilar to that character.

It's all pretty typical of the mis-information rampant round Australia's society. Some one picks it up in a newspaper or off an internet site so it's true. Unfortunately they make their decisions based on their recently read "facts" They don't know fact from fiction. Seems the reasoning is so far up the creek.

15% farmers rebates indeed. I wish, it isn't in Australia I can tell you. You couldn't call it informed debate.

John,

Yeah, I did'nt get to the 15% thingy, I got bored. Just the same old drivel that gets dished up every time.

Re. Steve and his opinions.
Some of you may remember my original signiture,

'There are many ar$holes in this world, unfortunately we have no choice but to share it with them.'

I came up with that one day whilst trying not to let people like him get to me.

Avagoodn
Pezza

>You couldn't call it informed debate.

No but it is mass debate, commonly called a wank

I think you need a few lessons in basic physics.

I will never know as much as car makers. They spend billions on learning how to make crumplezones and a host of other stuff to make their cars safer. Traditionally 4x4's have not had any of this stuff (the focus was on towing and 4x4ing to make a sale). And the ones that do are more retro fitted rarther than designed from the ground up. As I mentioned some new 4x4's are the exception. EG, the new volvo 4x4, it has been built to crash better. Soft roaders are excluded from this argument as they are not considered a traditional 4x4, more of a jacked up car.

troopie vs late model car (ok it was small) with crumple zones - troopie end on side after head on and driver ended up with broken colar bone other driver still recovering 6 months later......I definitely would want to be in the troupie.

Leroy

safety costs money. the megane (small car) had a 5 star ncap and was all on it's own for a while, even against much bigger cars. Physics is king. Car makers use physics to make cars safe.

your DEAD right F4Phantom, physics is king.
Large heavy object will squash small light weight object - end of story.

A vehicle that crushes in a collision helps BOTH vehicles by absorbing impact forces. And, if the small vehicle squashes completely the big vehicle dosn't need any crush absorbing components !

Ok, lets go the biggest baddest 4x4 (ford f150) vs a normal common sedan (camry)

Ford f-150
http://autos.msn.com/media/asx/iihs/0110.asx ex

Camry
http://autos.msn.com/media/asx/iihs/0202.asx

now tell me what you want to be in during a crash.

I've had a few serious prangs in my time.

1. 1968 Dodge Phoenix vs Ford Laser.

2. VH Valiant vs Fiat

3. Landcruiser HJ75 vs Sigma

4. Landcruiser 100 series vs Falcon

Let me tell you, mine all came out far far better than the others. (me too!)

Phantom,

Could not get your link to work ... dunno why. Anyway, here are similar links that do work:

F-150

Camry

Rivetting stuff ... but I think most guys here are asking what would happen if the two had a head on?

The links work, cut them and paste into your browser. By default there will be one space bar at the end of the address line after you paste it, delete it, this will stop the videos from working

Hi Barnesy,

There is not as much room in a commodore or falcon wagon when you are over six foot tall. Inboth of those I have to lay the seat back to avoid hitting my head on the roof, even when I do that the side pillar intrudes into my head space. I have an old (30 years old now) Mazda RX2 that has much better room though I do realise it doen't have the safety features. We bought an X-Trail as the second car because I wanted a four cylinder wagon with enough room for the family and they just don't come in anything other than the softroaders or perhaps a van which I would hate to drive. My 6 year old Pajero stops better than the commodore wagon that I used to own (admitedly that was a while ago and I really do hope they made them better), it tows better than either the falcon wagon or commodore wagon that I used to tow a race car around with and generally I think the better visibility enables me to be better at avoiding situations in the first place. The new Pajero is even better as far as handling on the road goes, as is the new discovery and probably some of the others.

I suppose the point of all that is that if you need the space of the wagon I really do believe that the 4wd is a better option that commodore or falcon and certainly a better option than the people mover type vans. If it's one of the new turbo diesels then it's economy will be far better than either of the other types as well.

Tim.

My girlfriends '92 EB Falcon wagon has exactly the same volume in the boot/wagon area as my GQ. I measured all of the dimensions. With a cargo barrier it's large. It can take 5 adults comfortably with a lot more leg room than my GQ.

I stand by my statement, unless you go bush or tow there is really no reason to own one in the city or suburbs.

Hi Barnesy,

In fact I probably didn't make my point very well. I am saying that people choose the vehicle they drive for all sorts of reasons. For me the headroom and driving position is important. If I have to lay the seat back to get the headroom then I have problems with my back so I want a vehicle in which I can sit straight and not hit my head. Unfortunately the GQ is not a good comparison as I can't actually fit behind the wheel to drive it and the back seat is not much better. I also tried but could not drive the landrover defender even though that has lots of room in the boot. The only two 4wds I have owned are a discovery and the pajero though I have driven patrols, cruisers, suzukis and a few others.

The fact that the falcon wagon has more room points to how ridiculous this whole argument is. The falcon and commodore wagons take up more space in the shopping centre car park than most 4wds, they weigh somewhere around the 1600k mark and while they may not be quite as dangerous as a 4wd I still would not want to get hit by one if I was in a small car. I also would not want to get hit by a delivery van, bus, truck or anything else bigger than me. For me to buy a very small car and then want everything bigger than me banned would be ridiculous. Oh, sorry, that's what they are trying to do isn't it?

Most of the modern 4wds handle very well. The technology that has gone into the latest discovery and range rover variants to control the body roll, braking and general handling goes far beyond the off road requirements and makes them very safe on the road. Other makes are following and while we may hate the electronics when we are out bush they are there to make it safer for everyone.

For reasons other than just towing or going bush (both of which I do) I drive a 4wd. I have never had an accident in mine or anyone elses and try not to monster the little cars any more than they do me. It gets hard to do when they insist on taking the buffer space I have left for emergencies but I know that they would blame me if I hit them anyway so I just try to chill out and listen to the music.

My 17yo daughter is learning to drive with a 4wd in the city and hopefully she is getting an appreciation of the difference between that and a small car and knows the handling differences. I hope she will be a safer driver for doing that.

Tim.

I don't disagree with what you're saying Tim. But i can also see the other side. More and more people in cities will be using small runabouts, motor bikes and bicycles due to the rising cost of fuel, expense in running a car and expanding suburbs.

Nobody can tell me that a 2.8 tonne Range Rover only driven to and from work and to pick up the kids from school would be safer for these small cars than a family wagon. whether that be a commodore or a BMW wagon.

A collision with a small car with a commodore, the nose of the commodore would hit the door of the small car where it's strongest.

A crash with a fourby would go straight through the pillars and windows, the weakest part of the car.

I can see how drivers of small cars, mostly women and often with children in the backseat, are very intimidated by them. Any mistake a 4wder makes is amplified because of this.

Barnesy

Hi Barnesy,
Your bias is showing
"Any mistake a 4wder makes is amplified because of this."

Bill

Hi Bill,

I don't actually think he is biased with that. It is definitely the way many people think and Barnesy is just stating facts there. Can't really talk for you barnesy but I don't think that you agree 100% with it.

I saw a test the other night on 5th Gear where they were trying to see if the Smart car really was as well built as they claim. They put it into a concrete wall at 70mph and there is no doubt that the thing was good, the doors still opened. The true comment they made at the end though is that it's kind of irrelevant since there is no way any of us could survive that kind of deceleration no matter how good the car.

I find that we seem to be living in a world where more and more people are hating me just for what I am rather than what I do or how I act. I can't understand the Muslim who hates me for not being a Muslim any more than I can understand the guy who wants me to run into a tree or back over my kids just because I drive a 4wd. The emphasis should be on training and teaching someone to drive properly wether they are in a 4wd or a small sedan. Real training in avoidance situations, skid pans, high speed dirt, wet roads and so on. People should be taught how to avoid dangerous situations and taught what the consequences of their actions really are. As far as I know there is no state in Australia that requires that kind of training yet an 18yo can go and drive a high powered weapon. And I would probably even support some extra training for anyone who drives a larger vehicle, and that could be measured on weight or wheelbase, I don't care. Not just a seperate licence, not just more fees but some actual skills transfer. Perhaps also teach the other drivers what really happens when they cut in front of a 4wd or a truck and whose fault the accident really is.

Oh well, down from the soapbox for a while :).

Tim.

Hi Tim,

Barnesy is adding to the 4wder outrage by stating that its the 4wder making the mistakes

Lets face it this type of accident where a 4wd or something else hits another vehicle up the rear (witch is why you worry when you see a big vehicle in your rear vision mirror) the reason is!!! Are you asleep or is the other driver asleep(talking on the mobile, texting, thinking of last night or tonight activities, talking to the person beside them or trying to control the screaming kids in the back)
It is Rare very rare that two vehicles TRAVELING in the same direction collide unless someone does something stupid. Training should be compulsory any time you buy a new type of vehicle

Bill

If that's what you make of my comments Bill then it is you who is mistaken. Tim said it "It is definitely the way many people think and Barnesy is just stating facts there".

I drive a fourby Bill but i also realise that there are actually other people on the roads who want to go about their lives too.

Irrational comments aside, a hypothetical situation, if two drivers made the same mistake the commodore would leave a dent in the bumper of the other car. A fourby would leave a dent in the pillar and rip off the mirror. which scenario would scare the pants off of the woman with kids on the back seat?

Doesnt matter who makes the mistake, the smaller car could be at fault but would come off a lot worse if they hit a fourby rather than a commodore.

If i'm doing anything other than stating facts Bill i must be smarter than i thought.

Barnesy

Barnsey, with respect (and we have known one-another for a long time - since aus.cars.offroad in it's early days) you are "statin' the bleedin' obvious".

As energy is the product of mass and velocity _ANY_ vehicle which is bigger than any other vehicle is going to inflict more damage on the smaller vehicle _if_ it's velocity is similar, which is something you ignore - how do you fancy your Patrol (whatever) being hit by a Barina doing 160kph!?.

Your argument applies to _all_ vehicles over (say) Magna size so that takes, at a guess, 50% of vehicles off the road? After all we don't have to use a 40 ton truck to deliver 40 tons we could use 20 two ton trucks and that would make everybody safer according to your theory. We don't do that because WE DON'T WANT TO - no other reason, it's just inconvenient and expensive and we (as a society) prefer to take the risk - bit of a double standard don't you think?

Finally: it's the choice of individuals what they drive and once we start to direct and control that we're just going further down the path of state control than we already are - and that's far too bloody far already! Barnsey: be careful in your implication that 4WDs in cities are a "bad thing" (my words) because before you know it you'll have to produce a "Primary Producer Certificate" or similar in order to purchase one.

Australia is already much too far down the control road - we don't need encouragement, especially from our own. to continue that journey. Ten years ago I was forced to take some of my firearms to be destroyed – for the public good we were told – maybe, in another ten years you’ll be forced to take your 4WD to the same demise?

Mike Harding

mike_harding@fastmail.fm

No where did i suggest Mike that we should take 4wds off of the roads. I drive one for camping and outback touring. I don't think any government would be able to ban 4wds, car munufacturers make too much money out of them.

Some of the comments on that newspaper forum were ridiculous. So are some of the comments i read on this forum, perhaps not as stupid as suggesting others should drive off a cliff but.........

Why can't anybody have a balanced discussion like i was having with Tim without people getting defensive? If 4wders ignore the points of view of other drivers it will only make us look ignorant.

We are all going to have to cut back on using oil, my opinion is that public transport should be free and expanded encouraging people to use cars less.

Mike you hypothesise about 4wds being banned for all but primary producers, how about in 10 years petrol is rationed per person because it's so expensive and difficult to obtain?

Barnesy

>Why can't anybody have a balanced discussion like i was having with
>Tim without people getting defensive?

I thought my response was balanced - it just challenged some of your assertions?

Mike Harding

You must have me confused with someone else named Barnesy, Mike. Bill was getting very defensive.

I didn't put forward any theory about trucks carrying loads. I don't understand what you are getting at there. The only point i have been trying to make is that 4wders are not the only ones on the roads and we have to respect other people's views on us. We may not agree with them but we all share the roads and have to get along.

There will be more smaller and vulnerable vehicles on the roads in the future for reasons i have mentioned, this means more people having a gripe against big, bulky 4wds. In a lot of cases their gripes are valid, a lot of times they're full of crap.

It takes more reserves of oil to build, run and maintain a 4wd than a little buzz box, as time goes on frugality with these reserves will be standard. We should start getting used to that idea and hoping public transport improves.

Hopefully i will be able to keep my fourby as there is nothing better than loading it up and travelling this beautiful land.

>I'm female, I can reverse into the carparks at shopping centre's using
>only my mirrors I know how wide a and long my patrol is

Would a marriage proposal be out of the question?

Mike Harding :)

sadly I am a one man woman, however I have put you on the call back list for future auditions. LOL

cheers cackles

Hi cackles

The troopy in the rig pick is Robyn's my wife
she drives it Evey day into Perth to work, shopping, all over the place (but she is a farmers daughter LOL) and she has no problems at all

all you have to know is how to drive

Richard and Robyn

you're right richard, I know a lot of ladies that like to get behind the wheel and have a go. Biggest problem we have is getting the boys out of the "fun" seat!

Cackles

Don't worry once I've got it IT'S MINE he he

Rihacrd

i agree that comment was sickening to read and made my blood boil being a 4wd owner i also think theres no different with a 4wd in the city than a truck or a bus in the city theres nothing wrong with either and the same goes with bullbars.

Also 4wds do handle different to the standard 2wd car but i drive my 4by accordingly to road and weather conditions, same should also go to every viechle IMHO.

Just my two cents worth

Luke

Some interesting points Andrew. I have heard many people state they would rather have a little runabout for the suburbs and leave their fourby for camping but can't afford 2 cars. Something to think about.

I think rego is only about $50 a year but it's the compulsory 3rd party insurance that costs so much. Something i don't think people should have to pay if they organise their own insurance. I have comprehensive but still have to pay a huge amount of cash for third party along with my rego.

Barnesy

Thank you allanmac856.