Any real details on the $2000 LPG grant?
Submitted: Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 19:14
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Jimbo
Has it been announced whether you get the 2 large straight up upon conversion or is it one of those "we'll give you $200 a year over the next ten years" type of arrangement.
I just can't believe "His Oiliness", the Member for Benelong, John Winston Howard, would be giving us a big up front incentive.
Still, it may just be the cynic in me.
Reply By: Gramps (NSW) - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 19:17
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 19:17
Hahaha just sit back and watch the cost of the conversion and the price of LPG itself rise
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 21:46
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 21:46
LMAO I cant wait, nobody seems to realise Supply and Demand - the oldest system on earth.
PS. What makes people think that excise/tax/scam/ripoff wont happen on LPG? the Gov says "we cant afford to lower petrol excise/tax/scam/ripoff"... So, when 1,000,000 cars go to LPG - how can they afford to lose it then + pay $2000 to each car?
the saying COME IN SUCKER comes to mind.
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 21:46
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 21:46
PS. - watch the waiting list and cost of LPG Upgrades go up by 500% soon in preperation!
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Follow Up By: Jimbo - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:06
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:06
Supply and Demand.
Two theories,
1. The traditionalist economists who professed that Supply called
forth demand.
2. The Keynsian theory (named after John Maynard Keynes) who dictated that Demand called
forth Supply.
Read up on them and make your own call. Economics is a complex and varying science. And very interesting. Not many really have a clue about it.
My education wasn't completely wasted.
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Follow Up By: Gramps (NSW) - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:16
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:16
A window of opportunity for those with the skills and experience to go into their own business. Tell the Boss to shove it hahahahahahaha
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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:20
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:20
Jimbo, if that is your knowledge of economics, I think the exam passes are a little way off.
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Follow Up By: Jimbo - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:41
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:41
I'm sorry John, if you can explain the folly in my recant of the two basic theories of Supply and Demand, I'd be delighted to hear. Whilst it is some years since I studied it, I doubt it has changed. If of course you have delved deeper into the subject, I'll defer to your greater knowledge.
The page is open for you.
I invite your theorum.
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Follow Up By: Jimbo - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:57
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:57
And John,
I forgot to mention, during my tertiary studies I achieved some commendable results in Economics.
So yes, I did manage a mere pass, or perhaps a little more.
It's a misunderstood science, by many I might add.
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 23:23
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 23:23
Ahhh, Jimbo. Had you delved a little further you might remember that in the real world the two theories aren't mutually exclusive. As models they need a bit more input called peoples' behaviour.
If I invent a money tree, it's the supply and demand. People instantly want one because I have have made them availiable. There's a supply so people want one.
But since I don't have an endless supply of em then its demand and supply. Some people will pay more for one than others.
Now its a long time ago since I did Economics at Uni, but I seem to remember that the essence of it was the study of how others made a dollar out of me :)
As for not many having a clue about economics, I rekkon anyone who raises a few kids successfully, has one hell of a good grasp of the subject :))
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Follow Up By: Gramps (NSW) - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 23:31
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 23:31
Aaaah Economics, I remember it ..... not so
well. Put six economists in a room and you end up with seven different opinions.
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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 07:41
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 07:41
Don't forget the demand elesticities and inelesticities either Jimbo with the pricing effects.
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Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:21
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:21
Can I toss a theory out there for comment? I obviously don't know as much about this "supply & demand" thing that you guys do but how does this go....
If the demand for LPG jumps up, then it can only be that the demand for ULP will go down (rough, I know, but bear with me...) If this is true, then could it be enough to at least slow the rise in cost at the bowser for ULP? I would never think for a moment that ULP prices will go down, but if the were to rise a lot more slowly then that would at least provide some comfort to us.
What do you reckon?
Cheers
Scoey, who will be keeping his 80 on straight ULP.
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Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:48
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:48
Scoey, I think we are too latched into the rest of the world demand for petrol for the slight demand reduction in Australia to make much difference. If I had a heavy ULP useage vehicle I would certainly look much more closely at changing to LPG or the vehicle than think that dampened demand will reduce the ULP price. We do have considerable gas
reserves for many years - greenhouse issues aside. I have seen some people suggest on EO that solar is the way to go for transport fuel in the next 20 years, but that is fanciful for the current fleet
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Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:54
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:54
G'Day John,
Ahhhh, yep probably a fair point! I didn't think of the whole "rest of the world" thing! ;-) haha! Yeah I have thought about a conversion for the 80 a number of times before but (and probably due to a lack of education) I simply don't like the idea of running it on gas. I know plenty do but I just can't get comfy with the idea - and for no good reason either! Thanks for the feedback!
Cheers
Scoey!
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 10:12
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 10:12
Payments won't start until October 1.
Site Link
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Follow Up By: Jimbo - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 17:54
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 17:54
This is one where the classical economists are right. A supply of cheap LPG conversions is now available, hence demand will increase.
That is to say, people who were not considering an LPG conversion (weren't demanding it), will do so now because a product (cheap LPG conversion) is now being supplied.
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Follow Up By: Mad Dog - Vic - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 17:58
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 17:58
Traditional supply and demand theory's don't work for fuel, you guys have too much education.
Let me put you straight...when the demand is high the price goes up, when the demand is low there is another excuse invented to raise the price.
Here ends the lesson, good evening and good gardening.
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Follow Up By: Gramps (NSW) - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 18:15
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 18:15
Thanks Ray, it's always good to get the 'real world' view on economics, bugger the theorists hahahahahahahaha
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Follow Up By: Jimbo - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 18:21
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 18:21
Interesting perspective Ray.
However, in the USA where they all drive big, fuel slurping machines, they have the highest demand, per vehicle, for fuel, in the world.
Funnily enough, they have close to the cheapest petrol in the world.
High demand equals low prices in this case, pass me the Pruning Shears LOL.
Cheers,
Jim.
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Reply By: Brew69(SA) - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 19:29
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 19:29
I wish it was made retrospective. :))
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Reply By: Craigww2 - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 19:34
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 19:34
I would like it if you could just pay the "Gap". $3000 was the last quote I got.
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Reply By: Member - Stephen M (NSW) - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 20:29
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 20:29
Hi there Jimbo, from what I have heard (dont shoot me) they were talking about it at work and some one was saying yeah there giving 2k back but are lifting the excise on it next year and the price for gas will be aorund the 90c per litre mark thats what there not telling people. Last I heard that wasnt untill 2011 so who knows unless some one else has heard the same thing. Regards Steve M
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Follow Up By: pathfinder - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 15:08
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 15:08
ah yes, the only greater source of misinformation than pollies is the average punter...LPG will be going up 2.5c/l/yr starting 2008 maxxing out at 12.5c/l in 2012 - not quite 90c/l somehow...
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Reply By: The Bigfella - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 21:23
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 21:23
Jimbo
I NEVER trust politicions(spelling) the vast majority are liars and that starts at the top. Anyone who is gullible enough to think that LPG will not increase in price over the next few years then go and get the conversion done. Would have to be one of the greatest cons ever. Whoopee, you get $2000 back and when the stuff goes up in price it will take you umpteen yeasr to come out in front.
Sorry but we live in a great country but have kindergarten kids running the show. As you can see I can't stand Howard and his lies but unfortunately most voters have a short memory. Remember the "children overboard" - it won him an election.
Just wait and see - a few weeks before the next election Howard and Costello will lower fuel excise by probably about 5 cents a litre and the average joe blow will vote for the bleep s.
Mind you the other side is no better.
Had my rant Jimbo so will top up the homebrew glass and go and watch "Enough Rope",
Cheers
The Bigfella
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Follow Up By: Shaker - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:38
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:38
Remember ... "The recession that we had to have"
Talk about short memories!!
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Reply By: Truckster (Vic) - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 21:47
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 21:47
2 large what? lollypops?
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Follow Up By: Jimbo - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 21:59
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 21:59
Only for an all day sucker.
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 23:28
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 23:28
hahahahahahahah
Toosh hey !!!!
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Reply By: Sarg - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:10
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:10
What about all of us that had the foresight and have already converted. Any mention of rebate for us ?
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Reply By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:15
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:15
Details imply having a plan.
This govt hasn't got a plan, it's a knee jerk response.
Other countries have plans.
Things that set renewable energy targets that mean something.
Things that have engaged the community in a discussion about how much land to set aside for food production and how much for fuel production.
Things that establish benchmarks for designing new buildings to be energy efficient, to design our cities to be energy efficient and promote public transport.
And those things have been in place for decades.
Two grand for LPG conversions is the best he can come up with pfft, that's no plan...
I bet they don't even know which department is going to administer it, and the boffins were scratching up some forms whilst he made the announcement. It'll be an administrative nightmare for ages until they get stuff sorted out.
Tim
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Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:32
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:32
I agree with all that in terms of needing a long term green approach. The thing is when I speak to many people about solutions my idea is things like modern diesel running bio or diesel electric hybrids which we will soon see. Then we can reduce our comsumption and focus on a renewable supply. Many people think that gas is the answer, its like they have can a big V8 and put it on gas and everything works out ok. I think its an old fashioned view as gas uses more fossil fuel not less, and only solves the problem in a false way by cheaper prices. So the problem of the wallet is solved but you use more fuel! Modern diesels do both, use less therefore cost less and this is a better long term idea. This is why I think lpg grants will be another hit as its a "now"
solution.
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Follow Up By: Truckster (Vic) - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 10:12
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 10:12
Payments won't start until October 1.
Site Link
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Follow Up By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 14:29
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 14:29
Agreed F4Phantom
...This is why I think lpg grants will be another hit as its a "now"
solution.
Sadly this is correct. It's all about knee jerk quick fixes - what's in it for me; nothing about planning for long term sustainability.
Tim
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Follow Up By: F4Phantom - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 17:47
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 17:47
Yeah I know its a knee jerk response from the government but what I was saying is that the people generally want a 'whats in it for me' response anyway. I dont know many people who will put up with pain and suffering now, for a better future, most people want the government they elected to do something for them now, to solve problem A (which happens to be the problem they are personaly experiancing at the time) now. In 4 years during election periods I cant see many long term plans being sorted out. LPG to me only has 1 positive advantage and thats low sale price, other than that you use more of the stuff and get less power, range and in the mean time real solutions like bio fuels are not being brought out to do their bit. Its very much a 'now'
solution which is also why I mentioned diesel, because the sale price is less important when you use a vehicle which is not thirsty.
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Follow Up By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 20:05
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 20:05
I agree with you F4Phantom. It just pains me this is what it is like.
Others may flame me, tho I suspect not you, for wishing our country had been led down a path of the community participating in a discussion about the long term future of how we want things to be, instead of this 'what's in it for me' mentality - the hands off, let the market decide of the Liberals.
We had a nice process in WA called a drug
forum a few years back, with community reps and academics and technical experts, all shoved into Parliament house to work out the best strategy. Much the same as the constitutional convention in old Parliament House in
Canberra. These are good processes for engaging the community in debates about how things need to be done. Could be exactly the same for all the energy issues we face now - or have been for decades really.....
Tim
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Reply By: PatrolBen - Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:49
Monday, Aug 14, 2006 at 22:49
In regards to the post previous about the lift in LPG excise, I remember reading somewhere recently (was the C.M. in
Brisbane I believe) that excise on LPG was going to kick in a 2.5 c/L in 2007 and rise at 2.5c/L a year until 2012 where it would be capped at 12.5 c/L. This however was before the latest oil panic and LPG incentive so I not sure on its validity but it does seem typical to hand out a grant for something and then tax it so whatever was spent encouraging people into it is recouped in the long
run. If there is anyone out there who knows different please correct me ASAP.
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Follow Up By: Matt Davis - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 04:21
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 04:21
From the ATO Fuel tax credit guide for businesses, NAT 14584.
Pg. 6: "Alternative fuels. Alternative fuels such as biodiesel, ethanol, LPG, and CNG will not be eligible for fuel tax credits until 1 July 2011 because they will not be taxed until that time."
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Follow Up By: Redeye - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 06:35
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 06:35
Correct no tax but there is an excise on LPG which is increasing every year.
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Reply By: Moser - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 08:02
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 08:02
Tell me in this world where you get somethink for nothing, The Govt would not be doing this if they were not going to get it all back double what they paid out.
Ozzie
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Follow Up By: Scoey (QLD) - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:13
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:13
My first impression was this:
People are screaming for the Govt to lower petrol prices by reducing tax (?? is that right??) They make that much money from said tax that it's actually CHEAPER for them to hand out $2000 to each person who converts to LPG. The Govt look tops cause they're throwing $$$ at a problem and saving the day!!! What a load of bleep !!! As you said Moser - you don't get anything for free especially from the Govt with the exception of sore @rses!! They hand those out freely everytime we get screwed over!
Cheers
Scoey!
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Reply By: sedg - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:04
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 09:04
All done for city votes. What are the poor mugs in the bush going to get, no LPG available and an even higher cost of fuel. An excise reduction would at least have benefited everyone. Gotta love pollies.
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Follow Up By: Tim HJ61 (WA) - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 14:34
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 14:34
....An excise reduction would at least have benefited everyone. Gotta love pollies.
For about 6 months sedg, then the inevitable increase in the price of oil will have eaten away the 38 c/l excise.
Tim
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Follow Up By: sedg - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 15:25
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 15:25
Tim
Yes, Sad but true. We just have to live with it I guess as we always have.
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Follow Up By: Jimbo - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 18:01
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 18:01
It was the people of the bush who voted the Country Party, sorry National Party, into near oblivion in preference for more Liberals.
The Country Party has less pull,
the bushies get less from government.
There are many from the bush who reckon they get a better go from Labour Governments than the Coalition since the spiral of the Country Party.
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Reply By: Member - Stan (VIC) - Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 20:27
Tuesday, Aug 15, 2006 at 20:27
Meanwhile most LPG
places got 6+ months waiting list and install prices in some
places gone up by $500.....
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