Speed cameras are accurate eh?

Submitted: Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 at 20:26
ThreadID: 37699 Views:3256 Replies:11 FollowUps:10
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Speed cameras are accurate eh?

Just returned from a prospecting trip to northern Victoria. On my way up there a few days ago I passed one of the radar “speed check” sites we have in Vic. These are gantries across the road with a large overhead display for each lane which informs you of your speed when you are about 100m before the gantry. It uses Doppler shift technology, probably combined with underground lane sensing, which is what roadside speed cameras use (no lane sensing though – although I believe the fixed cameras lane sense).

Having checked my speedo with a few different GPS’ over the years and double checked it against other overhead speed gantries and treble checked it across measured kilometers with a stopwatch I _know_ that when my speedo indicates 100kph my true speed is 4kph less.

Apart from the elderly hatchback I had been following for some time there was no other traffic in sight on my side of the dual carriageway when I went through the speed check. I was using cruise control and the speedo had been showing about 97kph for some time which meant my true speed was about 93kph. The limit at this location on the road is 110kph but I was in no hurry and was happy sitting behind the hatchback. The distance between us had been constant for some time at about 100m.

Through the speed check goes the hatchback – the display shows 108kph! Through the speed check go I and the display shows 93kph! The distance between us had not changed and we continued on our merry way with the same spacing of 100m or so. The speed check was wrong. I have, from an expert, heard of Doppler radar speed testing being wrong before but this was the first time I have seen it.

The speed check is shortly before Wallan on the Hume Highway, if you’re heading north.

Mike Harding

mike_harding@fastmail.fm
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Reply By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 at 20:59

Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 at 20:59
I wonder at those ones too Mike, I have seen different speeds indicated in the same lane for cars travelling at the same speed quite a few times. The one I see is on the Geelong road.

The Geelong Road speed cameras seem to have sensors across the road for lane sensing. There was some test gear today at the Little River road bridge camera set. Of course the speed was set lower even though stuff all was happening. Everyone was in beahiour mode.
AnswerID: 194420

Reply By: Jimbo - Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 at 21:06

Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 at 21:06
Mike,

You're mad, losing your mind.

It is an indisputeable fact that all speed detection devices in Victoria are accurate. The legislation says so, who could doubt that?

You are a vile sinner. Go and self flaggelate with a stiff Birch for 10 minutes or until blood flows.

I'll not hear such heresy ever again.

You wicked, wicked man.
AnswerID: 194423

Reply By: Flash - Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 at 22:05

Wednesday, Sep 13, 2006 at 22:05
Had almost exactly the same thing happen to me in the same spot last year, Mike.
I was following another car, we were about five car lengths apart, constant gap, no other vehicles around, VERY different "speeds" registered for the first vehicle (Falcon) and me (Patrol).
Don't remember the exact speeds but my wife and I both noticed a difference of about twelve klms per hour from memory....
What a great system.....
AnswerID: 194437

Reply By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 00:11

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 00:11
I like how when you go through in a semi. your trailer almost always is travelling faster than the prime mover... I believe those speed checks have no legal standing and are intended to be a "guide" only... I went through the one heading to Geelong 3 times in one day and the speeds were all over the place.

AnswerID: 194453

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 07:33

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 07:33
>I believe those speed checks have no legal standing and are
>intended to be a "guide" only

I'm sure you're correct but the point I'm making is that they use the same technology as other radar based speed assessment systems and if these units can be so inconsistent then...?

Had it given a common incorrect speed for both of us then one could assume it's calibration had "gone off" but an error of the type I describe is much more likely to be due to a bad measurement.

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 11:53

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 11:53
Do you happen to know where we can get info on these camera's Mike...??? just for my own curiosity, I tried google but got bored with the lack of results...
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 17:01

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 17:01
Hi Blue

Try here: (skip the maths and scroll down)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

And this is a pretty good article too:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_cameras

Basically radar speed detection works by sending a radio signal at a target and then listening for the little bit of the signal which bounces back from the target. If the target is moving then the signal which bounces back is slightly shifted, in frequency (Doppler effect), from the original and by measuring the difference between the two it's possible to calculate the speed of the target.

Sounds like a simple theory, but after spending over 30 years designing complex electronic measurement and control systems I can assure you that the practical implementation is a completely different thing :) And we designers don't, always, get it 100% right :)

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Member - Blue (VIC) - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 17:05

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 17:05
thanks Mike, should keep me going tonight... i tried searching but wasn't sure exactly what I was searching for...
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Reply By: Rigor - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 08:02

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 08:02
Just to wind everybody up a bit further a mate is in the "force" and over a few beers we were discussing this very subject . In response to my statement that if I am speeding and get done for it I will wear it and accept the consequences .
However being a bit paranoid and having what I think is a good sense of justice I then canvassed the subject of being "done " when you havn't been speeding , his response was (and he was fair dinkum) "that would simply make up for the times when you were speeding and didn't get caught" I was gobsmacked at this logic and for a minute thought he was kidding but he wasn't . This attitude p****ed me further as on previous occasions he had told that the few times he has been pulled over once he identifies himself as a copper it's a stern warning and in your way.

Cheers Dave L.
AnswerID: 194470

Reply By: Pajman Pete (SA) - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 08:17

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 08:17
We have noticed similar variations in the one on the way to Ballarat. We know how accurate our speedo is and usually travel with a GPS showing the speed (especially in VIC!).

The problem I see is if someone relies on the speed from one of these checking systems and drives according to what it said. That may well lead to more $$$ to the government.

Pete
AnswerID: 194474

Reply By: Member - Pezza (QLD) - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 08:29

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 08:29
As Blue mentioned, I've also been through the one on the way north from Melbourne a few times in a semi, couldn't believe my eyes the first time, then burst out laughing at the ludicrousness of it, I had no other vehicles around me at the time and was sitting on the speed limiter, it showed my prime mover doing 98km/hr and a half-a-second later showed my trailer doing 104km/hr!

Rigor,
That's normal procedure in QLD mate, was talking to a copper at a party a few years back that said the same thing, if he gets pulled over at any time for speeding he just shows his badge and they have laugh and say "see you next time" ( meaning when the role/positions are reversed ).
He wasn't too happy about the speed camera's though, no way out of them he reckons.

Avagoodn
Pezza
AnswerID: 194476

Reply By: Robin - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 09:33

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 09:33
Caused by the normal muli-path phasing effects,as both vehicles are in the field
of view at same time.

Doesn't happen anywhere near the same for roadside camera's as apart from better processing of more expensive units, they use a very tightly focussed beam angled at 22.5 degree down road.

Here is required a gap between vehicles (as seen by radar) to in effect reset reference value to zero before a valid reading can be logged on next car.

Robin Miller
AnswerID: 194482

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 10:09

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 10:09
>Caused by the normal muli-path phasing effects,as both
>vehicles are in the field of view at same time.

With a 100m gap?! And if that were the case it would make these speed check points all but useless except at 3am in the morning with only one car on the road and we would be hearing dozens of reports of how inaccurate they are? I’ve gone through them many times with other traffic (closer than 100m too) and they have provided an accurate reading for all.

>Doesn't happen anywhere near the same for roadside camera's as
>apart from better processing of more expensive units, they use a
>very tightly focussed beam angled at 22.5 degree down road.

So you're saying that dozens (hundreds?) of mobile speed cameras which are placed by hand at the roadside have better directional antenna and capabilities than half a dozen specifically designed fixed measurement instruments where the environment is known and cost is much less of an issue. This is a bit like saying my kitchen scales are more accurate than a weighbridge.

>Here is required a gap between vehicles (as seen by radar) to in effect
>reset reference value to zero before a valid reading can be logged on
>next car.

And a 100m gap is insufficient to do that? No other traffic, in sight, on the road at all either behind or in front.

It also begs the question that if roadside units rely upon the local environment to obtain their baseline how do they cope with such an uncontrolled situation? The rotating wheel of a child’s cycle, for example, may give them a false zero – how would they know?

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 452456

Follow Up By: Member - JohnR (Vic)&Moses - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 10:47

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 10:47
I wonder at any metal parts at the front of vehicles that may bounce the waves around, say if an electric fan blade that may have some metal componentry, just like the "chaff" dropped from aircraft to disguise radar signals in the second world war. Could assist share value of Davies Craig if they fitted aluminium to blades of the right wave length to you think?

Metal roadsigns too allow a signal to ricochet in some circumstances. Mike, you are right, to ask how would they know.
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Follow Up By: Robin - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 11:54

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 11:54
Hi Mike

The 100m gap is along the plane of the beam, when looking at the two vehicles from the position of the camera they appear almost on top of each other, indeed often one vehicle actually shades the other and the second one seems to appear out of nowhere.
This effect is much less for roadside units as mentioned because the offset angle is about 10 times as great.

The advisory ones are also deliberately widely focussed to pick up cars in every lane as opposed to the tight beam of the off angled roadside units.

Whether or not a good signal is recorded depends on how long a clean non-phase distorted is held, out of a variety of multi-path reflections. (For the speed advisory units)
As opposed to a break reset reaquire sequence of the narrow beam roadside units.

From the above you would expect the little ones hired by councils to be even worse and they are.

Robin Miller
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 16:52

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 16:52
Thanks for your response Robin but I don't see how it answers the points I raised above.

Given that I have seen two vehicles, simultaneously, pass through these speed checks in adjacent lanes and both have received, what appeared to me to be, a valid speed display I don't believe any wider "focusing" of the transmission is occurring otherwise the returned Doppler would be confused by the two vehicles. I suspect there is a Tx for each lane with their carrier frequencies sufficiently far apart for there to be no confusion - can't be too much shift to a 24GHz carrier from a vehicle doing 120kph.

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 452533

Follow Up By: Robin - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 19:48

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 19:48
Thats the way they work though Mike (advisory ones). Its just a wide beam which responds to biggest radar image regardless of distance , and relies on the FM capture effect as the dominant soucre and hence can switch to an updated display value quickly. No real consequences for wrong display.

What you are suggesting is certainly done but only in the much more expensive systems to my knowledge where some legal credence needs to be placed on the results, and it such conditions ground loop triggers are used.

My consultancy work on this is from 10 years ago now , but I'm not aware of
new systems.
A clue to your suggest would be to look for ground loops in advance.

The advisory one out of Melbourne to Ballarat reads if you drive off lane on road edge, and herein lies a weakness in systems as used for revenue raising.

Robin Miller
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FollowupID: 452588

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 21:20

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 21:20
>Thats the way they work though Mike (advisory ones). Its just a
>wide beam which responds to biggest radar image regardless of
>distance , and relies on the FM capture effect as the dominant
>soucre and hence can switch to an updated display value quickly.

In that case why do they, usually, produce a correct reading for vehicles in adjacent lanes (at the same time!) yet produce an incorrect reading for vehicles 100m apart at ~100kph or ~28m per second in a sequential situation? I'm fully aware of the FM capture issue and suggest it has no relevance at all in this situation, otherwise the two vehicle scenario would not apply.

>No real consequences for wrong display.

Other than a total lack of credibility in the whole speed measurement system in Victoria.

I remain, very, unconvinced of your argument against my original statement Robin?

Mike Harding
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FollowupID: 452613

Reply By: tuck 01 - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 10:36

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 10:36
I go through the indicator just out from Geelong several times a month.
I've never seen it wrong with the Toyota. Always 3km above my speedo, which is the true speed due to my tyres.
My bride has a very dark blue (almost black) VT Commodore. The indicator has only ever picked it up once, on an occasion when the car was very dirty. Generally, it seems to be invisible to that particular radar, driving through with no speed given. This happens whether it is the only vehicle around or in steady traffic.
Pity that it is not invisible to the portable or fixed radars that issue fines, we might both have a few more points on the license and dollars in the pocket.
Cheers
AnswerID: 194492

Reply By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 11:48

Thursday, Sep 14, 2006 at 11:48
I think in Vic the revenue collecting devices use two different sensors to detect speed, and if they don't correlate, you don't get booked.

This is only for the fixed and mobile ones - not the ones in the Traffic Management Unit vehicles.
AnswerID: 194503

Reply By: Froggy - Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 11:04

Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 11:04
All I got to say is this....

www.couper.com.au/froggy4x4/idiots.htm

Deleted my personal details for obvious reasons, but there ya go... how accurate are they really? Well folks, there is the evidence in the link above... not very accurate at all it seems. Just a question of Russian Roulette for all of us unsuspecting travellers.

But how do I prove the GPS was in MY vehicle?! I can't - so what a bugger!

AnswerID: 194917

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