Solar Vs Honda20 Gen

Submitted: Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 12:39
ThreadID: 37756 Views:4072 Replies:9 FollowUps:34
This Thread has been Archived
What are the benefits of a couple of good Solar pannels over a good Honda GenSet. We have had the caravan wired for solar - no pannels as yet, but am thinking that a Honda20 4stroke Gen. would be more practicle when camping with and without the C'van.
Back Expand Un-Read 0 Moderator

Reply By: ZUKSCOOTERX90(QLD-MEMBER) - Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 13:04

Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 13:04
Hi Yaki, we have two 60w solar panels on our motorhome & have also a 3000i Kapor & have not needed then genset as of yet.We mainly got it for if we neede air con in summer & heat in winter,every thing else is offthe house batteries,& also 1500w inverter if we need it.We only have the tele on at night if we get service for news & current event show mainly.Lights off batts,fridge off gas as is cooking.Then the solar charges the next day for the night again.If the batts do not get enough charge we also have smart charger start up motorhome & run for a while batts topped up enough for more entertainment dvd's sometimes.Hope this helps you.
Cheer's bob.
AnswerID: 194818

Reply By: Darian (SA) - Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 13:16

Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 13:16
IMHO - if choosing one mode of power supply, gennie is the go, because of reliability of supply.... the modern, inverter type units are so quiet that we should be able to get away with a bit of low level noisemaking for a couple of hours in the middle of the day, pretty well anywhere (excep in non-gennie parks of course). The Honda 20 could run an air cond. in a van too while I expect a solar system would need plenty of $$$ hardware to achieve the same. Seems those with a few quid use both systems - stay quiet where they can on solar, and run the gennie only if they have to.
AnswerID: 194821

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 at 22:28

Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 at 22:28
Darian, you say "pretty well anywhere (excep in non-gennie parks of course)" what happens if you want to stay in a park that does not allow gennerators and you don't have solar??
0
FollowupID: 455498

Follow Up By: StephenF10 - Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 08:05

Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 08:05
Wait until the ranger disappears then crank it up.

Stephen.
0
FollowupID: 455549

Follow Up By: Darian (SA) - Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 08:36

Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 08:36
Well..... I believe in giving all players a fair go, including the policy makers/regulators...... if its a non-gennie park, thats designed to cater for the non-gennie campers who are looking for quiet - that's why they regulate for it - can't see that we have any right to crank up a gennie while there - if we choose gennie as a power supply, we have to live with that. If we can't, we go elsewhere or buy solar as backup (or use less energised appliances). Its camping. We can always go for a short run somewhere and charge up there..... and I should say that the "law" is not my real concern - only the campers - if they were all out for the day and I was the only one there (and the ranger wasn't around), I'd run the gennie anyway.
0
FollowupID: 455552

Follow Up By: StephenF10 - Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 11:39

Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 11:39
>Wait until the ranger disappears then crank it up.

Sorry, was being a bit facetious. If there's nobody else there I can't see a problem with running a gennie, especially something quiet like a Honda EU. If there are people nearby, and you're in a non-gennie zone, it's good manners to ask them if they mind, or come to some compromise ("I'll only run it for two hours at dinner time but you're welcome to plug in your microwave/battery charger/whatever while it's running").

Stephen.
0
FollowupID: 455577

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 11:55

Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 11:55
Quote: " what happens if you want to stay in a park that does not allow gennerators and you don't have solar?? ".........

My answer to that question (being the owner of a similarly-quiet Yamaha 1kva gen set), would be to offer the ranger and any other campers close by, the choice. I can either crank up the Patrol's 4.2L donk (ie: the BIG gennie) and idle that to charge my batteries for an hour or 2.......(MUCH MUCH louder than the little Yammie)........or they can get a life and give me the okay to run the gennie for about the same amount of time; and I can locate it some distance away from the camp site, behind a tree etc. The choice is theirs....let me know what you decide.

That's what I'd be saying. ;-))
0
FollowupID: 455578

Reply By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 14:21

Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 14:21
Hi Yakodi

Noise v/s Power

The Honda is quiet. My own Honda EU20 is great and yes I do use it for the a/c and microwave.

Solar power is clean and free (After yo buy the panels) but power is limited.

I sell many panels and Bi-fold kits but mainly for DC power use. IE: Computers, TV, Lights, Pumps, Radio and Sleep apnoea machines.

Regards Derek.
AnswerID: 194827

Follow Up By: wazzaaaa - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 06:23

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 06:23
Hi Derek,
Would be interested in your view on the above statement......... (Also .. do not use batteries in parallel (it reduces life time dramatically). Only use batteries in serial. Get 6V or 2V and combine to 12V with the capacity you need.)...... it is quoted of a US web site and the guy seems to know what he is talking about.
Looking forward to your reply.
Wazza
0
FollowupID: 453093

Follow Up By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 06:41

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 06:41
Nice if you have space and lots of money to wire in series.

Most of use are part time campers and need easy to obtain batteries that are light and easy to replace in the middle of no-where.

Regards Derek.
0
FollowupID: 453094

Follow Up By: wazzaaaa - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 09:31

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 09:31
Well done!
I thought I had put you on the spot then.
Wazza
0
FollowupID: 453108

Reply By: Richard Kovac - Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 14:46

Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 14:46
Yakodi
I hear today at the 12 volt shop, that you could sell your Solar panel in ten years time as they don't wear out.
But in 10 years time a Genset is 10 years old.

Just a thought

Richard
AnswerID: 194828

Follow Up By: Member - Roachie (SA) - Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:02

Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:02
Richard,

I might be wrong (I often am).....but I thought that solar panels DID have a finite life (of about 20 years?)
0
FollowupID: 455580

Follow Up By: Richard Kovac - Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 20:59

Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 20:59
I don't know Roachie

But I'd hate to see the state af a gen set in 20 years.

I think newer type cells would have a long life

The 12 Volt shop (in WA) has a twisted cell (battle Damage) that still produces volts

and I also may be WRONG LOL

Richard
0
FollowupID: 455680

Reply By: _gmd_pps - Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 16:06

Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 16:06
It boils down to your energy needs ...
A decent a/c has mostly more than 2KW unless you have a smaller unit ..
2.5KW is typical for a/c (Dometic etc). If you want/need a/c a gen is a must ..
you pick the a/c first and then pick the gen accordingly ...
Everything else (well mostly - even my 1.5KW Cappuchino machine included) can run from battery with or without inverter. Inverter size is calculated on the basis of you largest appliance you want to run (or combination of it ) + a bit of reserve. I run a 2KW inverter but do NOT use 2KW over extended periods because batteries would not cope ... the higher the current you take the less total capacity a battery will give you ... look at C20 specification of a battery and decide on that basis. Many Australian shops specify the C100 rating which is nonsense and makes numbers look better but it is not a figure for reality....

You calculate your energy use on the 12 side including an inverter (if used) and put a bit on top and pick the battery, which would deliver that energy over the required time and does not get below 30% (I prefer 35%).

Manufacturer say you can deepcycle to 20% but the deeper the more cycles you loose in lifetime of the battery. Also .. do not use batteries in parallel (it reduces life time dramatically). Only use batteries in serial. Get 6V or 2V and combine to 12V with the capacity you need.

Once you have picked your batteries you can decide on the time for recharge or typical useage per day and then you can decide on the size of your panels. If you use larger panels (I use 2x 170W Bp) you have higher output voltage (which is a good thing for cable size and voltage drop) but you need a stepdown/boost/charger (like the MX-60 - expensive even more here in Australia).

If you do not want to spend the money on a boost/stepdown you are limited to 12V (nominal 17.6V) panels (125W max I think) and can use them only in parallel and will not utilise higher voltages than 14.8V. It's a matter of budget..

To cut the story short .. it is not either or for me.. it is both

I just went through this exercise myself and have ordered my current setup yesterday as a matter of fact in the US. I have a camper unit coming from the US and have the batteries, panels etc shipped with it ...

I own a Honda 30is which is a great generator but it is bloody heavy (57Kg) and you do not want to move it too often. The 2KVA is much lighter and I think the way to go ... If the expense scares you for both then start with a 2KVA generator it is the more versatile solution in the beginning ... but sooner or later you will think about a battery anyway (to run the fridge etc) and then it only depends how often you drive with the vehicle and if you spend the money on a regulator/charger.

Vehicle alternators only charge batteries to 80-85% which is not a good thing for AGMs .. I use AGM and would not even look at flooded cells so I have to think about keeping them healthy. Most people just use isolators and charge the battery from the alternator but thats not good enough. If you want to optimise lifespan of your AGM then a charge controller is a must and when you have a solar controller from a panel you can charge house banks on top of the vehicle alternator even in parallel and can avoid additional cost for a regulator/charger. The other option is to use a 3 stage AC charger and run your generator but you will not run it long enough (I would suspect) to keep the AGM nicely at 98% or higher.

So for many applications a 120W solarpanel with a 100Ah or even 200Ah( use 2x6V 200Ah - easier to handle) with a simple charge controller will do the trick.

Cost would be around 2K$ with Australian prices which is on par with the 2KVA gen (well at least a good one) .. So one could consider both option an alternative but in fact it is not .. both do certain things well but one can not do certain things the other can't .. and running your 2KVA gen all night for the fridge is not an option .. so you have a battery anyway which reduces the cost for the solar option already by $500 or so (assuming 200Ah - Australian pricing unless you use the better batteries which would be more like 700-750).

Now my recommendation is:
If you do not need an a/c and your wife does not need the hair dryer for 5 hours a day you can go solar from the start and get a gen later in case.

If you need an a/c and if there is no way around then get the generator.

If you are mostly on powered sites on caravan parks with the a/c then get the solar first.

hope this helps
gmd

AnswerID: 194829

Follow Up By: shredder1 - Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 06:09

Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 06:09
hi gmd ,is there any chance i can correspond with you about the camper you importing from the usa. thanks jim
0
FollowupID: 452910

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 06:22

Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 06:22
yes sure ..
gmd@ozshops.com
regards
gmd
0
FollowupID: 452911

Follow Up By: Member - andrew B (Kununurra) - Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 13:30

Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 13:30
Gday gmd

How, (and how mutch) will running the batteries in paralell reduce their life. I'm presuming you mean life as in months/years, not cycle life. I can see it will reduce the life of one if the other is on the way out, but if they are both in good condition will it still make a difference. I often run a battery in the cargo area in parallel with the aux under the bonnet. I was led to believe that you will get longer between charging this way (drawing say 3 amps off both batteries at the same time you get more than twice the life out of 6 amps from 1 battery).

I do have the option of running one down then the other, but they have to be in paralell to charge with the car (and the starter makes 3), but they would all draw off the altenator rather than each other, so shouldn't be a problem. Toyota have paralell bateries as std in some models as well.

Any advice on this?

Cheers Andrew
0
FollowupID: 452968

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 15:12

Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 15:12
have a look here

Site Link

regards
gmd
0
FollowupID: 452978

Follow Up By: Member - andrew B (Kununurra) - Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 15:29

Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 15:29
Thanks, not a bad read. I don't think My system (or the landcruiser one) should suffer very much with the lazy cell issue, as they are fully(?) charged regularly on 2 hour trips etc. Would be more of an issue with a large system for a house (and possibly Caravan/CT), but with my set up I assume as the aux batteries are generally passengers most of the time keeping topped up, and only made to work like an Army reservist *{one weekend a month, 2 weeks a year} (good name for a boat/Ct I suppose!).

Still, something to keep in mind if setting up for 2 batteries in a CT if you never want to disconnect them and use separately.

Thanks for the info, Andrew
0
FollowupID: 452984

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 19:54

Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 19:54
"do not use batteries in parallel (it reduces life time dramatically)."

I have no idea how you've come to that conclusion ?

The link you provided above says "Under no circumstances is it advisable to install more than three parallel battery strings, but at three strings you are courting trouble. "
- This hardly implies that two parallel strings are a problem.

Nissans and Pajeros come as standard with batteries in parallel to increase current capacity.

Most battery sites explain how to connect batteries in parallel with no warning about problems.

Many users of this forum have 2, 3 or 4 batteries in paralllel.
0
FollowupID: 453026

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 02:43

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 02:43
Yeah right .. "Most Battery sites etc etc "
like thousand flies must be right but they still sit on s.it.

Do what you think is right .. I do what I think is right ...
Just a little bit to think: Assume one battery is 2% different from the other.
What will happen ? How much does a battery age from standing ?
Do you have 2 absolute identical batteries in parallel ? you have no
balance current between the two ? at no voltage ?

What happens when the two batteries at half the voltage are 2% different and in series ? what does it mean for the resulting voltage or current ?

regards
gmd

0
FollowupID: 453090

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 04:03

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 04:03
Why series?
Series arrangements means fewer cells which means each can contain more stuff for greater capacity or can be built more rugged in a given amount of space. A series arrangement also means that a weak cell does not sap the energy of the others and any current going through the battery will just pass through a weak cell. This fact, that any load or charge current goes through all cells equally, tends to keep all of the cells at an equal state. It also means that a failed cell does not cause internal circulating currents. The failed cell may add some resistance and, since it does not contribute any voltage, it will show as a reduced battery voltage.

Why parallel?
A parallel arrangement means that current is shared between batteries and this means that each battery is exercised less vigorously which may increase usable capacity. Since removing any single battery will not change the voltage, there is a redundancy in batteries that can be useful in the event of failure (if that failure is detected early enough). Parallel is also useful in low voltage systems because it may be easier to find batteries at needed supply voltages. A failed cell in a parallel bank will sap energy as the other cells try to charge it. This can cause heat and loss of water in the failed cell as well as lost current capacity.

Serial configurations have one major disadvantage ... the effects of the Peukert factor. Because the voltage of each partial battery is lower the discharge current is higher for a given load. The higher the discharge current the lower the overall capacity .. thats why we have C5 C20 C100 etc to decide for a given application. A serial configuration requires a bit more reserve power ... Another disadvantage is when a series of cells fail and the resulting voltage is too low to use ..
A failure of one whole battery unit in a parallel system still will have the full voltage of the other battery left when the failure is detected before the others are discharged. The advantage of serial configuration is less capacity degradation through cell variations, which is especially relevant for flooded cells.

The parallel connection is the more "convenient" way as is the charging of a batterry for a vehicle alternator without external 3 stage regulation. It does not mean that it is the best to keep the battery alive for a long time ..

Both techniques have pros and cons .. for long life I opt for serial ... you decide for your own application

regards
gmd



0
FollowupID: 453091

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 08:04

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 08:04
If you have a 12 volt system you HAVE to have 6 cells in series - there is no other option. Electrically there is no difference if there are two 6 volt batteries or one 12 volt battery.

If you need 10 amps, it doesn't matter whether it comes from one 200 amp-hour battery at C/20 rate or two paralleled l100 amp-hour batteries - 5 amps out of each at the C/20 rate. Both arrangements will have roughly the same weight and cost. Peukert's Law refers to variation of discharge rate - not about how current is shared between batteries.
0
FollowupID: 453098

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 09:48

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 09:48
I am reminded of expired horses and whips, Mike :)
0
FollowupID: 453112

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 12:51

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 12:51
Mike,

read properly .. In a series configuration at higher discharge current Peukerts law does play a role. It depends on the size of the battery and current of course ..
In a series application the discharge current on each battery is double the discharge current of the parallel setup for each battery .. depending on the current is does make a difference. Also the plate thickness of a higher capacity battery is thicker than a lower capacity battery... assuming we look at the same technology.. high current cranking batteries have usually thinner plates ...
to say that there is no difference is a very shallow view of things. There is also a difference in how much current can be absorbed in the bulk face and how much is going to be heat. Ask a battery shop about the max charge current of a battery. The max charge current is the value which can be absorbed by the chemical process without generating excessive heat. If your charging sources capability exceeds the max charge current the battery will heat. Good manufacturers specify that ... and good suppliers know it .. many don't .. consider the charging resistance of a serial or parallel setup and the resulting current.

A series configuration of higher capacity batterys will take higher charge current. Now many vehicle have only small alternators (below 100amps) where this is not that much of an issue since the resulting initial charge current will probably not exceed 50 or 60 amps. A flooded cell battery in many cases has a max charge current of 35Amp or so .. good AGM's are a lot higher and usually would take the 50 or 60 Amp with no problem ... as soon as you have a decent alternator (200Amp +) you want to think a bit more about that even with an external regulated alternator.
Of course all this also depends on how deep you cycle your batteries.

Have fun
gmd
0
FollowupID: 453153

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 14:39

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 14:39
gmd - think about practical application that readers want to know about, not technicalities.

Say someone decides they need 200 amp-hour at 12 volts. They will be discharging at 10 amps and recharging at 50 amps.

If you are considering whether Series or Parallel is better (your proposal) they have two choices.

a. Two 6 volt 200 amp-hour batteries in SERIES. Each battery will be discharged at 10 amps -the C/20 rate. Each Battery will be charged at 50 amps - the recommended C/4 rate.
If one battery has a cell failure - you're stuck !

OR

b. Two 12 volt 100 amp-hour batteries in PARALLEL. Each battery will be discharged at 5 amps - the C/20 rate. Each battery will be charged at 25 amps - the recommended C/4 rate.
If one battery has a cell failure, you disconnect it and continue the trip with half your battery capacity.

In both cases the batteries are being charged and discharged at the same C rate. Peukerts law doesn't care whether the capacity is within one battery case or split between two.

re your previous post - if 2% difference in battery capacity had an impact on the life of batteries in parallel, then NO-ONE would connect batteries in parallel. Consider that when two batteries are separated by an isolator, then one may be at 100% and the other at 20% charge - they still last for many years.
0
FollowupID: 453171

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 14:49

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 14:49
thats fine .. as long as you look within C20 or so ok .. when you go to C5 its a different story ..

look at winch applications .. or in my case a gyro ..
also I did not speak about charge difference when one is charged an the other not .. thats normal operation .. I was speaking about a 2% difference as an example when both are fully charged and in float and one of the parallel aged a bit more than the other..

You are right .. so just keep doing what you are doing ... no problem with me ..

Have fun
gmd
0
FollowupID: 453175

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 14:57

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 14:57
"thats fine .. as long as you look within C20 or so ok .. when you go to C5 its a different story .. "

- it just doesn't matter what the current LEVEL is !. Whether you have series or parallel arrangements, if you have the same battery capacity/weight, then in both arrangements, the batteries will be operating at the SAME C/x current level and therefore they will have the same life expectancy.
0
FollowupID: 453176

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 15:37

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 15:37
In essence you are saying that

the Peukert factor of 2x 6V 400AH or 2 x 12V 200Ah or 6 x 2V 400Ah is identical right ? .. thats the consequence of what you are saying .. .. wow you should start publishing science books ..

You can only say that for "convenience" you say "practicality" we assume that the differences are minimal when we draw current within the C20 limits ... and not even then ..

For instance discharging at 10 amps does not remove twice as much power as discharging at 5 amps. It removes slightly more. Therefore a 100 amp hour battery (at the 20hr rating) could provide 5 amps for 20 hours, but it could not provide 10 amps for 10 hours. The available time would actually be slightly less.


Also what you are saying is that you can use a flooded cell and an AGM in parallel from a practical point of view ? right ?

Flooded cell batteries like the Trojan are rated at 1.24 Peukert or about that, better quality AGM like Lifeline or other US (not Chinese) batteries are 1.18 or so

I would really like your assumption for serial use but in reality the serial connection has a higher Peukert factor than a parallel setup assuming that the technology is identical which in practice is not. The characteristics of a 6V 200Ah are different from a 12 100Ah ..

Since the Peukert factor is an exponent the capacity decrease is non linear so the closer you get to the "bend" of the curve (from C20 to C5 or below) the more decrease in capacity you get ..

have fun
gmd

0
FollowupID: 453186

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 16:01

Monday, Sep 18, 2006 at 16:01
I've tried to explain it three times . . . . I give up.
0
FollowupID: 453190

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Tuesday, Sep 19, 2006 at 22:39

Tuesday, Sep 19, 2006 at 22:39
Your reaction reflects a typical situation of tradesmen I have encountered her in Australia! You must have been sick in year 12 Physics ... ahh sorry you don't learn about Peuckerts Law here in Australia in High School ...
So may be here a little lesson:

The usable current from a battery depends very much on how fast energy is taken from the battery. Slower energy _Affordable_Storage_Drawers.aspx usually mean more usable capacity from the battery. Energy draw is usually indicated by current because a battery's voltage is relatively fixed by the battery design. Energy draw is called power and is the product of voltage and current. Energy capacity is a product of power and time.

The capacity gained by reducing energy draw or current drain in a parallel configuration versus a series configuration can be determined by evaluating Peukert's Formula T = C / In where T is how long you can drain current I from a battery that has a capacity C and an internal resistance characteristic n. For the case of two six volt batteries in series versus two 12 volt batteries in parallel, the comparison is when the current changes by a factor of two (when voltage doubles, current halves and vice versa for the same amount of power). The formula would be

Tp - Ts = (C / In) - (C / (2I)n) = C(2n - 1) / (2n In) = Tp ( (2n - 1) / 2n )

{subscript p for parallel and s for serial, serial has twice the current of parallel, the LCD (2I)n which is where the 2n comes from in the Tp term to be able to subtract the fractions, percent change divides both sides by Tp and then multiplies by 100 - check the algebra yourself and let me know if you think you see an error!}

So percent change from the low current to high current times is (2n - 1) 2n . When this is calculated, the range for typical batteries means drain times will be from 71% (worst case worth purchasing where n=1.25) to 65% (best case, n=1.05) changed from parallel to serial. In other words, doubling current will reduce time of draw from 65% to 75%. For the 40 amp hours available (discharge to 80%) at a 5 amp load, the parallel configuration could provide 8 hours of usable battery while the serial configuration would provide maybe 6 hours. This would be balanced by the batteries in series probably have a bit more capacity to start with.

In above example the serial configuration of the same C20 capacity gives me less useable output ...

Well I tried to explain it 4 times .. now I give up and do my electrics myself anyway ..

have fun
gmd
0
FollowupID: 453500

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 12:25

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 12:25
Yes, you're good at copying formulae that are totally useless to anyone on this forum.

To be helpful to people here, I suggest you put more effort into learning how to apply Peukerts Law to the real world.
0
FollowupID: 453584

Follow Up By: Mainey (WA) - Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 at 23:07

Thursday, Sep 28, 2006 at 23:07
GMD,
when two (or more) 'batteries' are wired in parallel (or in series) they are in effect becoming only ONE battery, due to the current being spread between the two or three batteries via the connecting cables.
You can measure the voltage "anywhere" along ANY connecting battery cable and it will always be the exact same number, no matter at what point you choose to place the 'multimeter' probe points.

Two batteries in parallel are still 12v, (12.66v charged) but double the amps, and instead of having 15, 16 or 17 plates in the old style of batteries they will have 30, 32 or 34 plates.

Yes AGM's are different with newer technology and far more efficient, but the same applies, two AGM's wired in parallel will give you only one battery.

{If you could ask an alternator regulator "how many batteries are connected to the regulator" the answer will be always ONE, even when there is a battery isolator used}
0
FollowupID: 455505

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 01:32

Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 01:32
Mainey,

let me take it very very slow here .. You just illustrated Ohm's law... from a birdseye view all grass looks the same .. pretty much .. you are right for a passive resistor and also for a battery at a certain point in time during charge but not in all situations .. you have to look at things when one battery reaches charging voltage and the other has not yet completly .. or when there is a discharge current from one into the other because they age a little different .. the discharge will stop when they have the same voltage .. now two batteries are never identical .. they always have a very minimal difference in characteristics .. worse when they are used independently for some time .... also look at situations of high current discharge and the curve of charge cycles over percentage of discharge .. this is different for every battery ...
so we see the same voltage on the contacts when they are connected but we have to look at what happens inside and how much quicker one ages than the other .. the more difference in the two (3 is worse) the faster both will deteriorate .. this effect happens quicker in parallel than in serial because in serial the current is always the same for all the cells ..
when one cell shorts (2v out of 12V) the pair will go dud very quickly ... not so
in serial .. you have a voltage drop but the second one will not "suffer" from the short of a cell in the first one ..
and a few more things ... a battery is NOT a passive element like a resistor where you can expect the same behaviour over time and always the same again ... batteries change internal resistance with charge and each battery does that slightly differently .. Lets say you charge to paralleled batteries with a 3 stage and the one reaches full voltage before the other .. now it depends on the charger if it stops by voltage or by current .. when a charger switches to float one of the batteries is undercharged or the other is overcharged unless they are 100% identical which they never are ... so from the very first moment 2 batteries are paralleled there are differences .. Such differences may be acceptable to most because they don't worry about full charge anyway (only charged from alternator or with too high voltage for an AGM) and accept that a battery dies after 3-5 years and don't work there batteries hard .. or other scenarios where we simply don't bother to consider the differences ... it is more convenient to parallel .. more effort in serial and when one serial dies you end up with half the voltage where this is not the case with parallel ... BUT at the end of the day parallel shortens lifespan ... now an AGM can live a lot longer .. I expect to get 8 years or more out of my AGM's .. hopefully more ... but you have to maintain them ... charge them to 100% at least every 2 or 3 months .. try to keep them in float if possible when not used a long time, recharge them as quick as possible after deep cycle .. don't leave them drained for long ... all these conditions are hard to achieve with a simple alternator and lack of 3 stage charger and auto charge monitor ... so we simply accept a shorter life ...
I have a GEL battery in my motor cycle ... charged from a 1300 Watt alternator ...
a flooded cell battery is cooked in no time ... been there done that .. the GEL battery is 6 years old now going on seven but I look after it.
I can not say how much shorter the life of two parallel batteries will be than two serial ones in practise .. but in theory the life expectancy is different .. if it is different enough for people to worry about ? well you make the decision ...

have fun
gmd



0
FollowupID: 455534

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 06:52

Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 06:52
gmd:

Are you able to present any supporting evidence for your assertion that putting batteries in parallel will shorten their life?

By that I mean a creditable research paper or a technical note/application note from a battery manufacturer (not reseller).

Mike Harding
0
FollowupID: 455542

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 08:02

Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 08:02
".. they always have a very minimal difference in characteristics .."

- if this were a serious issue you would NEVER see a commercial installation with prallelled batteries.

Everyone advises against charging NiCads in parallel - but I have a Philips NiCd pack which has two sets of cells in parallel. Because they were matched during assembly, they are CLOSE enough to work in practical terms.
0
FollowupID: 455547

Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:10

Friday, Sep 29, 2006 at 12:10
nobody is speaking about NiCad ... totally different story
and the best chargers charge NiCads individually
have fun
gmd
0
FollowupID: 455581

Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Sunday, Oct 01, 2006 at 12:45

Sunday, Oct 01, 2006 at 12:45
gmd:

As a follow-on from my post of two days ago; I wonder if you have had the opportunity (or, indeed, even intend to?) to locate any supporting evidence for your claims?

Mike Harding
0
FollowupID: 455851

Reply By: Motherhen - Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 17:00

Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 17:00
yakodi - i would go for solar in most circumstances. If you are going to spend a lot of time out and about in dull weather, it may not be the best option. If you are going to camp away from the caravan for more than an overnight, i would certainly take a genny.

We used to camp with a noisy little 1 kva Yamaha genny, but when we bought a small fold up caravan, we got a solar panel and mounted it on a stand, fitted a 12/240 v Engel caravan fridge and a couple of 12 v lights. The panel (as well as from the car when driving) charged 1 deep cycle battery which we also put into the camper. We left the genny behind and never needed it. Even stopping late in the day, we faced the panel to the sun and it charged the battery faster than when driving. We'd face it east when we went to bed, and it would start charging at first light.

Now we have a bigger caravan fully fitted out with solar and 12 v, not fuss, it just looks after itself. We bought the Honda 2oi just for the air con. We have only used it a few times, plus using the genny with an angle grinder once when we were stuck when the caravan stabiliser jack locking pin broke, and one other time to help someone else out. We have never needed to use it to charge the batteries, but that day may come. Worth having on board for peace of mind.

The genny only runs for around 3 hours per tank of petrol when running the air con, so it is not suitable for running all night. We got a small fan for hot nights but haven't needed it yet.

Motherhen
Motherhen

Red desert dreaming

Lifetime Member
My Profile  My Blog  Send Message

AnswerID: 194834

Reply By: Member - Ray - Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 17:47

Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 17:47
All good sensible replies so far.(no mine is the only setup to have etc). We have a 130watt Kyocera panel with a 130 amphour deep cycle batt. it runs the fridge and the 12v versalite and we also have a Honda 20ui which we have used on occaision to run some floodlighting while camping with a large group. This suits our needs and we find the gennie is very quiet while placed behind the camper.I guess what I am saying is everyone has a bit different requirement so it's a personal thing.
AnswerID: 194839

Reply By: Member - Jeff H (QLD) - Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 22:08

Saturday, Sep 16, 2006 at 22:08
gmd pps,
. It's taken me 18months to garner what you just offered in 30 mins. Well done, and look forward to seeing images of your rig when you get organized. We just run with solar, but the cloudy skies have concerned me on occassion.
AnswerID: 194877

Reply By: yakodi - Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 07:53

Sunday, Sep 17, 2006 at 07:53
Solar sounds the way to go - don't need TV, deal with no A/C for a few days in the bush, minimal maintenance, cost about the same give or take a few hundred, All we need is 12V lights, gas appliances, ie fridge, oven, stovetop, -the TV, DVD, computer, heater, a/c, hairdryer, dehydrator, slow cooker, etc, can wait for the caravan park.
AnswerID: 194896

Sponsored Links

Popular Products (9)