Native title decision

Serious as a heart attack Errol.

Exploder

I never lernt to read and write

But thats crap

I think you'll find that native title is extinguished by free hold titlle and most other claims to existing urban land. Lets start finding out some of the facts before we get too fired up.

Site Link

Try this site link

Site Link

Richard

funny thing when you read this

"A native title claim, which incorporates the whole of the Perth metropolitan area, has been upheld in the Perth Federal Court today."

We don't have a Federal Court in the state of western Australia, do we?

"FEDERAL COURT OF AUSTRALIA
1 Victoria Avenue Perth

Federal Court of Australia - WA Registry"

But boy it makes a good read

Richard

Sorry foregot link

Site Link

Ah! A man who confuses the legal system with justice - you have much to learn.

What's your point Mike? Do people really think that Aboriginal groups have a motive to reclaim major capital cities?

Let's be realistic here. The Aboriginal population is only about 2% total of Australia. These native title claims will have minimal negative effect on the wider population.

In Adelaide there are Aboriginal cultural heritage sites that I think add to the character and feel of the city.

I'm sorry... but is that a serious question...?

>Ah! A man who confuses the legal system with justice - you have much to learn.

I'm trying to work out what your point is.

>> The Aboriginal population is only about 2% total of Australia

then why do they have more rights than me?

because you're only 0.000005% of the population.
:)

They don't have more rights than you Truckster. Believe it or not but Aboriginal people do suffer at the hands of racism. Have you Truckster ever been refused a job for example because you were white? Or because of your race the employer thought you were unreliable? Which race has poorer outcomes for health, education and just about everything else?

Laws favouring Aboriginal people is recognising that this does occur and they are an attempt to correct the imbalance.

I don't expect you to jump on the bandwagon Truckster but that's what the laws are trying to do.

Barnesy

Correct the imbalance?

ROTFLMAO!

what about being an employer trying to sack one of the sponges cause he was always late, left early, never worked between smoke breaks, and as soon as was shown the door - pulled the racial abuse card, and gets free legals.... yes, please correct the imbalance.

dont even bother gettin me started.

I knew you were going to react like that Truckster. You're a grumpy old bugger.

The govt can't make laws to change peoples attitudes towards the Aboriginal people, the influence has to come from the Aboriginal people themselves by their behaviour.

Careful what you say ray... people will call you racist... lmao

Nowhere did i say that changing some laws will change people's attitudes. To use a cliche', "the squeeky wheel gets the grease" and nobody can deny that Aboriginal people as a whole need all the grease they can get.

I disagree..
Let them work for it like I and other "WHITE MAN" have to. Let them pay full health like "WHITE MAN".. rego, food, no handouts etc etc..

White man no work, white man get bleep all.. why should it be different?

please, lets leave this here...

Barnesy said,

"They don't have more rights than you Truckster. Believe it or not but Aboriginal people do suffer at the hands of racism. Have you Truckster ever been refused a job for example because you were white? Or because of your race the employer thought you were unreliable? Which race has poorer outcomes for health, education and just about everything else?

Laws favouring Aboriginal people is recognising that this does occur and they are an attempt to correct the imbalance."

And that is the best summation of the situation I have read. It is factual, balanced and without bias. It recognises a complex issue and that there are attempts being made to address it.

Good stuff Barnesy.

ATB,

Jim.

"They received no compensation, and no relocation allowance to move inland to less productive areas."
Less productive area's, I don't understand, what do you mean exactly Barnsey???

Joombi,
before the Poms came to Oz the vast majority of the Aboriginal population lived in the most productive coastal areas and around river systems, the most food was here. When the poms came they also recognised that these were the best areas and wanted them also.

Whereas today if somebody takes over your land they have to buy you out or compensate you for your losses. Back then the Aboriginals received nothing. A lot of them were shot and murdered. The surviving ones were either forced onto missions or pushed inland into drier more desert areas.

I was trying to highlight what happened 200 odd years ago would be severely frowned upon by the international community nowadays as genocide. The English commanders could be charged with war crimes.

There's no point clinging onto the past but it has to be recognised to move forward. Aboriginal people today recognise a major aspect for them to move forward is land rights. I honestly don't understand why white Australians are threatened by this. It baffles me.

Barnesy

Understood. Thanks Barnesy. (buy the way, I read my question again & was not having a go at you)
I do not believe we (Black/white) Australians have it equal from experience, like it or not, when I was in primary school where I had to walk a few k's to get there, after school every now & then I saw this little murrie kid, one of about 50 I went to school with, which I knew quite well, I was one of about 5 or 6 white kids, he was throwing rocks at the street light out side the school, the cops pulled up & took him away, I seen him one day & remembered to ask what happened with the cops all the time & he said they took him home, so stupid here wants to get a free lift home so I do the same thing. I got a good hiding when dad had to take time off work to come pick me up from the cop shop where he was told they would be keeping a close eye on me because I was a trouble maker & a vandal.
same thing, I wasn't happy to find out they got "Paid" to go to schooll while I didn't.
so I don't think its a "Threatening" thing, I think its more a case of like when you are at work & someone gets more pay than you for doing less, like jelousy I suppose, where as white aussies have to work, take out loans & pay them for 25 years or more at the current interest rate, if you are an Abo-Aus, you get a house for nothing on the missions & wreck it, or if you do work, get a 2% interest rate
Alcohol ruined the black fella's rep, put a ban on them drinking it would be more of a case of all Aussies helping out because at last they would be helping themselves.
the ones that do good, and there are plenty of them, are the first to feel shame of their reputation, and that is what stops them in their tracks at job interviews, their reputation, as I feel sorry for what happened to their ancestors at the hand of the poms, if anything the poms should be buying this land off the aus gov where it can be used to develop these communitys with hospitals & the like & then in turn give it to the murries, makes as much sense.
I've got a fair few Black mates so before the name calling starts, they feel the same way about it....
just my 2c

Ah! A man who understands reality!

'Traditional' hunting rights have formally been granted so expect to hear the sound of .243's and .308W's ringing out from new 79 series Cruiser utes", LMAO

Traditional hunting should be done with traditional weapons

Everything should be traditional.
- clothing
- tools
- weapons
- transport
EVERYTHING if thats how they want it - like before the big bad nasty whiteman came.

Close, but no cigar - as Dr Johnson might have said....

From memory State Forest No.54 is located adjacent to the Mundaring Weir. Now that is the metropolitan area. Helena Valley catchment too?

How about Julimar, Dwellingup, Jarrahdale, Gnangara Basin, Wilbinga, etc etc etc.....? In other words, any trip within an hours drive of the CBD....no, 45 minutes from my understanding will become legitimate native title claims. I haven't studied the decision in any great depth and I may well be wrong, but from what I've heard to date, that would seem to be the case.

The Noongar communities have proved to be a shining example of responsible management so far haven't they (remember the forced closure of the Swan Valley community a few years back and the horrendous stories of ingrained child sexual abuse, domestic violence, disease etc that surfaced)?

I wonder what will happen now with the same 'leaders' at the helm?

I don't think it will be purely theoretical to tell you the truth. I can see the few remaining 4x4 / recreation areas near Perth being shut down or at least charged for entry. If there's a dollar to be made out of this, it will be.

Must be something in it for them.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

I heard the Noongar spoksman on ABC radio news this morning say that they would want to have some say in the management of these lands - I assume he meant the state forests and Crown Lands and "assisting" CALM?

Mike Harding

That's ok V8, when we go to Dwellingup camping next time we can take a 308 and do some "hunting" of our own! LMAO!

No bastard is going to stop me driving on crown land mate I can give you the tip, I don't give a crap what some wally says in court.

Jeff, with you all the way mate. I reckon if it ever got to the stage of being told we couldn't go to Dwellingup based purely on race, the 'civil disobedience' on display would be simply overwhelming.

"so we crashed the gate, doin 98"....."looks like we got us a convoy........";-)))

>I reckon if it ever got to the stage of being told we couldn't
>go to Dwellingup based purely on race, the 'civil disobedience'
>on display would be simply overwhelming.

Ha!

“Aussies” and "civil disobedience"? These are words which do not fit into the same paragraph. Haven’t seen such a bunch of conformists since I was in Switzerland.

Last time there was any worthwhile civil disobedience here was at Eureka.

The people of this country will do whatever their governments tell them to.

Prove me wrong?

Mike Harding

Complacency is the root of evil.

Also a fact is Homo Sapiens came from Africa. No humans evolved here in Australia. Everybody in Australia now and always had ancestors that came from somewhere else.

Nope.

When living in the NT a few years ago, a land claim was passed in the area. All of a sudden no white person was allowed to access the area of pristine springs, waterfalls and lovely swimming areas. Those that defied the order realised that the area just became overgrown, and was no longer used for anything.

My question is; how does this help their community?

anyone agree with you?
not me

Hi Phil,

Firstly I'd like to congratulate you on putting forward a well written, logical and factual argument. This is a welcome change from the usual ranting zealots who cower behind personal insults, finger pointing, labelling anyone with a differing viewpint racist and accusations of KKK membership. The lack of an open, meaningful, measured and rational discussion of the critical issues at hand is in my opinion one of the main factors contributing to the desperate situation many of the aboriginal people find themselves stuck in. Being 'PC' helps no-one if it means discussion is effectively stifled and as a consequence, solutions to the myriad of problems at hand cannot be found.

I'll respond to the points you've raised in capital letters as I don't have the option to respond in italics or a different font colour. Please note, I am not shouting.

THE FACTS
1. 200 years ago European settlers began stealing Aboriginal land and murdered Aboriginal, women, children and the elderly.

TRUE. IT WAS ALSO THE CASE ELSEWHERE - NO EXCUSE - BUT THAT WAS HOW IT WAS DONE BACK THEN. SAD BUT TRUE. MOST EVERY NATION ON EARTH HAS A SIMILAR STORY. SOME MOVE ON, SOME DON'T. I THINK THE FRENCH, ENGLISH, DUTCH, BRAZILIANS........I WON'T RATTLE ON BUT I'M SURE YOU GET MY POINT. MOVE ON, NO MATTER HOW UNFAIR OR UNPALATABLE THAT MAY BE IT IS THE ONLY WAY FORWARD.

We don’t need to beat ourselves up over this but we must always remember the crimes committed by the founders of White Australia.

AGREED. THE FOUNDERS OF WHITE AUSTRALIA HAD THE SAME THINGS DONE TO THEM IN THE PAST TOO DON'T FORGET. AGAIN, NO EXCUSE BUT THAT'S LIFE.

2. Now, in the first decade of the 21st century, Australian Aboriginal peoples do not enjoy the same health, welfare and educational resources that White Australians receive as a matter of right.

THIS IS TRUE. I ACKNOWLEDGE THE TERRIBLE SITUATION THAT MANY ABORIGINAL PEOPLE LIVE IN, BUT IT MUST BE SAID THAT AT LEAST SOME OF IT IS THEIR OWN DOING. ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF IS A KEY TO GAINING SELF RESPECT AND SELF DETERMINATION. RAISING A THIRD AND FOURTH GENERATION OF WELFARE RECEIPIENTS IS A DOWNWARD SPIRAL THAT BLIND FREDDIE COULD TELL YOU WILL LEAD TO MORE PROBLEMS. THE CYCLE MUST BE STOPPED.

3. Child molestation, alcohol problems and substance abuse are not limited to Australian Aboriginal communities but occurs daily in every area of our nation. Horrible things are daily carried out by all sorts of people, of all religions, skin colours, races and social, educational and professional status. White Australia cannot claim the high moral ground in any of these areas.

AGREED AGAIN. HOWEVER A CERTAIN GROUP OF AUSTRALIANS CLAIMING THEY ARE ABOVE THE LAW AS THIS IS 'TRIBAL' OR WHATEVER OTHER EXCUSE COMES TO HAND IS SIMPLY NOT ACCEPTABLE IN THIS DAY AND AGE. FULL STOP. THIS WAS THE CASE IN THE SWAN VALLEY COMMUNITY.

4. Our Courts, legal systems and democratic governments are amongst the best and most stable in the world. (Note what happened in Bangkok overnight.)
TRUE.

5. Lands rights have only been granted to Aboriginal communities after long and complicated legal arguments in our highest and fairest courts that are amongst the best in the world, for all their faults.
TRUE.

Our back yards, suburban blocks, free hold farms are not threatened by Land Rights legislation. Indeed they are actually protected by Land Rights legislation.
CAN'T COMMENT WITHOUT SPECIFIC LEGAL ADVICE.

6. A very small group of extreme right wing trouble makers have spent the last 30 years or so spreading all sorts of lies, miss-information and fear campaigns about Australian Aboriginal issues to cause racial tension and division within the wider Australian communities. They used to be associated with an organisation called the League of Rights who infiltrated the One Nation Party and have tried to infiltrate the National Party. If you don’t believe me, email Queensland National Party Leader Senator Ron Boswell. He hates what the League of Rights stand for with a passion.

I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THEM, BUT I WOULDN'T DOUBT THAT FOR A MINUTE. I HOWEVER MAKE MY OWN MIND UP ON ALL ISSUES BASED ON PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND OPINIONS OF THOSE I VALUE. I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN THINGS WHEN OUT AND ABOUT THAT CAUSE ME TO QUESTION MANY SO CALLED 'TRUTHS'.

7. Genuine Australian 4wders, who believe in a fair go for everyone, should all band together. We should try to do our best to support Australian Aboriginal Communities as they strive to improve their lot in our great nation.

PHIL, NO ARGUMENT FROM ME ON THAT COUNT EITHER. I DO HOWEVER CALL A SPADE A SPADE. ALL AUSTRALIANS SHOULD BE TREATED EQUAL. GRANTED, SOME NEED A BIT MORE OF A HAND UP THAN OTHERS - BLACK / WHITE OR OTHERWISE, BUT THESE PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE A DUTY OF RESPONSIBILITY BACK TO THE COMMUNITY AS WELL. IT'S A TWO WAY STREET.

Anyone agree with me?
IN ESSENCE......YES.

Regards
Phil

Don't agree either! Unfortunately it is a polarising argument but it is not a solution to hand back all the land to correct 200 years of white settlement. I just want to travel around our country without having it progressively closed because the only government solution is to hand it back - it aint fair but then again we are not a minority group yet so we don't matter.

Kind regards

I agree Phil. There will always be good and bad things with racial issues. But on the whole this land rights issue can only benefit Australia. Many men kicked up a fuss for example with women's lib but it's just change happening.

I don't think white Australians have enough of an idea how important these sort of things are for Aboriginal people. Just granting some legal status for an area of land won't do much on its own. There are more deep seated issues that need to be addressed also.

Barnesy

Hi Campship

Good question

It might be something like me and my 800sq metres of land and a 3 bedroom house. I cannot really put a definitive answer to it but some how it helped my little community, called my family, develop.

Another example is a guy I know who inherited his old man's house with 2 unfenced allotments next door. During the next 25 years he mowed next door and paid the rates etc. All the local kids walked through the vacant land as a short cut to school. They played with their dogs and played cricket and footy there for years.

One day the owner fenced the blocks off and started to build 2 homes, one each for his grown up kids. The neighbourhood locals protested to council and held public meetings, because they always believed it was community land.

I don't know how the Aboriginal Community will develop from your example but I do know that they must have proved ownership to the courts. Perhaps they owned it for thousands of years and then decided to keep trespasses out.

Just like we European settlers like to keep trespasses out.

end of argument?

regards
Phil

... so I figure from what you are saying Phil, if the Aboriginal community proved in a court of law, ownership of the entire continant of Australia, they could legally kick us all out?

Dont be so blind, go and have a look at few aboriginal communites and see how they help themsleves. Some do, some don't. Giving land title back to them does nothing but let them stick their tongues out at us.

That's all from me, back to work.

It's obvious you didn't read this bit, campship!!!!!

Must of had your blinkers on !!

"Our back yards, suburban blocks, free hold farms are not threatened by Land Rights legislation. Indeed they are actually protected by Land Rights legislation."

I dont agree either.

>>Dont be so blind, go and have a look at few aboriginal communites and see how they help themsleves. Some do, some don't
This I agree with 220000000%....

Philip Ruddock:
"Ruddock warns native title ruling could deny access to parks"

Site Link

I personally don't have a problem with native title. As the Aboriginal spokeswoman said "this is largely symbolic". I'm sure in 10 years many will wonder what they were so worried about.

Philip Ruddock:
"Ruddock warns native title ruling could deny access to parks"

NPWS do it anyway here in NSW, SO WHATS THE DIFF.

Since when did two wrongs make a right?

Yesterdays printed age - THEY ARE RESUBMITTING A CLAIM FOR MELBOURNE AND SURROUNDS NOW TOO...

nasty whiteman... nasty nasty whiteman...

Hi Phil, I don't think the freehold land issue was ever in question. It's a red herring, so please don't confuse the issue.

The issue that concerns me, and others obviously, is the 'grey' areas of crown land, national parks, reserves etc. I am no lawyer by any stretch of the imagination but if the FEDERAL ATTORNEY, with all the resources and legal advisors at his disposal feels these areas are under a cloud, and is prepared to publicly state so, I feel I have reasonable grounds for serious concern.

As a keen traveller of the very areas that 'may or may not' become restricted, I think I have legitimate grounds to worry don't you?

I'm am concerned that I will be denied access to even more of Australia (which really gets on my goat already).....BUT, if that happens purely because of my skin colour or the heritage of my great, great, great grandparents.....well that's called apartheid.

Phil, I'd be interested to hear how you can reconcile that possibility under the banner of a 'fair go'? Also, can you tell me in plain english exactly what this decision means to all the non-freehold land? It would appear Philip Ruddock can't, perhaps your legal know-how is superior to his?

Apologies, should read ATTORNEY GENERAL.

Sounds like you're the one promoting the racist sterotypes to me ross.

Go back and read your own posts bleep ,especially the bit about the sound of 243 and 308.

Your the originator of the thread and you were obviously hoping to stir the pot a little.

And anyway Im white but Im sure more than a handfull of Aboriginies would agree with me

ross, I don't think I've ever seen a blackfella hunting with a spear and woomera, boomerang or even on foot. The point I was trying to raise is that the term 'traditional' is applied far too loosely IMHO and as an argument to the greater community holds little water. It's a joke.

In my personal experience (which is not gleaned from TV or Midnight Oil songs), the blackfella's use Toyota 4x4's and scoped .22 magnums or high powered centrefire rifles. That is not 'traditional' hunting - that is 'hunting'.

You can't have it both ways. It's either 'traditional' - or it's quite obviously not.

I'm not trying to flame here, but I think if you re-read my posts at least I have attempted to put forward a reasoned and structured arguments for disussion. Your inability to coherently counter the points put forward do not justify tantrums or name calling here ross.

Oh for christ's sake, have a bex and lay down for a while.
My 1st post was not directed at you but some of the openly racist comments further up the thread.

WHile Im here why do aboriginals have to hunt and travel traditioanlly when anyone else can use the weapon of choice?.
If aboriginals must use traditional weapons then whites should use their traditional weapons of english long bows and ride horseback.

Because the essence of the argument put forward is that one group of Australians have the right to access and use areas of land that other Australians cannot, and this division is based purely on race.

The other part is that 'traditional' hunting should be just that - traditional. No one in their right mind could ever reasonably argue that hunting with 4x4's and high powered rifles is 'traditional'. It's perfectly clear - there is no grey area. It is 'hunting' - not 'traditional hunting' and should be referred to as such.

Black, white, green or purple, you are either an Aussie - or you're not in my book.

"you are either an Aussie - or you're not in my book. "

Patriotism= the last bastion of scoundrels

"ism's" - the last resort and refuge of fools unable to construct a concise and viable counter point.

Deal with the matters at hand ross - don't cower behind feeble and inept personal insults.

You have plenty of material to get your teeth into. Address point by point in a factual way something worthy of discussion or go away and bleat to rest of your like minded, inarticulate, populist sheep.

I welcome intelligent discussion, I fart on inane drivel.

As far as I know proof of connection is unchanged and excludes 90% of aboriginals from land claims.
Ask any aboriginal person who lives in the city and they are as divorced from land rights s any white person

Proof of continuous connection is still unchanged. The group in Perth were able to prove this. It is an extremely difficult thing to prove.

As for tax payers $ i would prefer it to be spent on this rather than an unnecesary war over the other side of the world that benefits no one. Maybe we should be concerned over that (and the blatant lies we've been force fed) rather than Aboriginal land rights.

Barnesy

Barnsey:
I have been interested to read your opinions on this subject - please don't try and broaden it to a general divisive political debate.

Given that the format of this forum makes long threads almost impossible to follow it may be better to start another thread anyway? And, providing, people refrain from abuse I do think it's a subject both worth discussing and pertinent to this forum.

Mike Harding

I was trying to put it into perspective. Nothing more.

Here is a group of proud Australians who history shows have been marginalised for the last 200 years finally getting their foot in the door in an area other than sport and some people complain about a little bit of money. When a lot more of tax payers $ is being wasted all over the place.

Get your priorities straight, please. I'm white but am also a proud Australian.

Barnesy

Many people are quick to jump on the bandwagon in criticising some Aboriginal communities. When another Aboriginal community stands up for themselves, well that's no good either.

They will now have the responsibility to manage whatever land they do get, hopefully they can make a living off of it. Surely that's better than being stuck on the dole?

Good on them.

Barnesy

and????