More on sat phone service

Submitted: Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 16:22
ThreadID: 37879 Views:3502 Replies:14 FollowUps:35
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Recently I reported difficulties with a certain sat phone service. I believe that others have had similar experiences with lack of a reliable service in *some* areas. After 3 lots of "we'll get back to you" I finally emailed them somewhat pointedly, and to their credit, they replied.
Part of the information received is, I believe, of interest to sat phone users/buyers on this forum.
I'll quote part of their email. (yes I've checked that this info is in the public domain and they don't mind me using it).

"First of all, I would just like to point out, our service is a satellite service, and is used the majority of the time for people traveling in remote areas. Also mentioned in my previous email, I quoted that the constellation issue has mainly affected the northern region of Australia and not the whole of Australia. "
At present, we are still receiving positive feedback from customers and not just negative feedback"

"We have recently been advised that we are experiencing a constellation issue. Some of our satellites are experiencing some power issues, meaning that it is outputting lower output power than usual. We are basically putting this down to the old age of these satellites. Because of this, and our LEO (orbiting) constellation, when the satellites exchange to the satellites having problems, this may cause longer than normal delays in connecting to a satellite and also may cause drop outs during a call. However, the constellation issue has not affect all customers in Australia, however, mainly in the northern regions of Australia.

We currently have on-going maintenance trying to assist in improving the power problems on these satellites, so we are looking at seeing an improved hopefully by the end of October/November. Globalstar USA have advised that we will be launching 8 new satellites in the first quarter of 2007, and we anticipate the launch to be completed by end of May 2007. However, we hope to see improvement between now and then with the maintenance."

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Reply By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 16:49

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 16:49
It's a problem that has been in place for quite some time now.

I wonder if they will actually resolve it as they claimed as the have lost so much market share it may now not be viable to replace the Satellites???

On a recent trip I was on it took nearly 20 minutes to acquire a signal (Northern Flinders Ranges) I would not say that was "The Northern Region" even then the signal was poor and if the user moved from where he was standing it "dropped out"
Further Nth it would not hold a signal for more than 30 to 60 seconds.

I have seen the same issues in the Vic High Country, again not what I would call "the Northern Region".

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Reply By: Glenn (VIC) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 17:02

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 17:02
Hi Footloose,

I too have had issues with this company, and I believe the excuse to be a cop out. The number of people I met whilst up north AND in the west also were annoyed with the lack of connectability and drop outs. When it costs the user money to continually ring people after a drop out, I believe that the company should be more apologetic. I am going to email both the company and the Communications Ombudsman as I believe that they are using false advertising at present to mass sell their inadequate products. Just because the US are going to launch 8 new satellites, does not necessarily mean that we in Oz will receive a better coverage as we are in the Southern Hemisphere, not the North. For me to have been sold the product using their selling propoganda and then discovering it certainly lacked the quality and coverage of iridium, then I am not terribly impressed. If I had had a client bitten by a snake in the outback and tried to get emergency help, I fear that the person would more than likely have been dead before the RFDS would have been alerted. Maybe I need to carry anti-venom just to cover my own backside...lol. I will not be holding my breath for a satisfactory result though.

Cheers and thanks for the update.

Glenn
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Follow Up By: Troop-a-dour - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 17:27

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 17:27
Yup...another good arguement for VKS737 equipped HF radio...At least you would be able to selcall someone/ somewhere..!!
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 17:30

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 17:30
Glenn, sounds like you could have been in real strife if you were relying on this service for your customers well being during an emergency.
I'd assume that you have either changed providers and / or carry HF now ?
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Follow Up By: Glenn (VIC) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 17:51

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 17:51
Footloose,

I am first going to try and gain a suitable resolution from the company via direct contact with them and the ombudsman. I am hoping that the resolution I am after occurs so that I can change my provider.

Cheers

Glenn
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 18:07

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 18:07
Glenn, if you haven't already, try Koren Kapi

Customer Care Team Leader

Globalstar Australia Pty Ltd

Good luck.
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Follow Up By: Glenn (VIC) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 18:11

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 18:11
Thanks Footloose.....I think I may need more than luck...hahahahaha
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Reply By: joc45 - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 17:08

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 17:08
I'm not an expert on this, but given that the satellites are low-earth orbits and not geostationary, then the region should not be an issue, as they are on the move all the time.
Geostationary satellites have groups of directional antennas which can be set up to provide hot spots in regions (usually high-usage regions), leaving some areas with a poorer signal. Plus the further you are away from the equator, the poorer the coverage after taking into account the regions the satellite antennas are set up for.
LEO systems are on the move all the time, rather like GPS satellites, and regions get equal coverage. The "northern regions" problem sounds like a furphy. The ailing power might be correct, but this issue seems to have been going on for a long time, indictating possible fundamental design issues.
Gerry
AnswerID: 195538

Reply By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 17:23

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 17:23
Totally agree with all posts. I was merely reporting the *facts* as given to me by their organization.
My concern is for the poor unaware traveller who relies on the advertised product. I wonder if "duty of care" means anything here ? Or "truth in advertising" ?
At least they tried to answer my concerns. Just how well they did it is up to you :))
AnswerID: 195543

Reply By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 18:34

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 18:34
Amateur radio set broad-banded to Tx across the whole HF range 1.8MHz to 30MHz with a loooong bit of wire and in a _real_ emergency you'll be able to reach someone.

Of course a better option is to gain the new Amateur radio Foundation Licence and be able to chat to people the world over on your HF. Pssssttt they'll also do VKS737 but it's a bit naughty to use them on those frequencies - but a lot cheaper :)

Foundation Licence
http://www.wia.org.au/foundation/foundation%20licence%20information-v1.pdf#search=%22foundation%20licence%22

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 18:57

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 18:57
Here we go again.
Mike, have you ever tried to use AR in a *real* emergency ? There is no system in place for a traveller in strife apart from the Travellers Nets. In an emergency you need to contact someone quickly who has credibility with various emergency services and is well experienced in such traffic handling. The average ham doesn't have either. Nor are they usually reachable by selcall.
Although AR does expand your radios capabilities, AR doesn't automatically give you access to the RFDS or 737 network, as most amateur sets don't have selcall.
Even with selcall, you can't legally join a commercial network using amateur radios.
It's not "naughty", it's illegal to use them on 737 frequencies except in the event of an emergency.

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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:02

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:02
Yawn.
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:12

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:12
Wouldn't worry about it Jim, As usual Mike's got all the answers.
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:30

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:30
Oh John...! You've been grumpy with me ever since I challenged the silly assertion you made that there were only 3000 Amateur Radio Operators in Oz! :)

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:37

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:37
Yawn.....

Its good to see "Your still a legend in your own mind"
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:42

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:42
Dammit John! Your biting satire gets me every time!
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 20:07

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 20:07
Come up Mike, surely you can refute my points, one by one ? No ? Well then, perhaps you'll get to the personal level. As usual.
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 20:21

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 20:21
I know you don't like me Jim but that was a little disingenuous - and rather nasty too.

Play the ball, not the man and tell me why, for example, the Yaesu FT-857D radio should not be used on the VKS737 system? It's one hell of a lot cheaper than Codan, Barrett et al and would open up HF radio to a lot more Ozzies who go bush...?

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 20:28

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 20:28
Mike, I don't even know you. So no, I don't dislike you. I do, however take exception to your methods of questioning the poster and not the substance when things don't go your way. And of your pathetic attempts to ascribe your own attributes to others.
We've had this discussion before, and I've no intention of going into it again.
It has nothing to do with my post.
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 20:42

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 20:42
Oh Jim... we go back a few years, as you know :)

>It has nothing to do with my post

Yet you chose to make a number of responses... as you usually do - a "last word thing"?

Anyway, I'm sure you'll agree, most HF Amateur radios will work very well on the VKS737 frequencies and are a lot cheaper than the, overpriced, Barrett, Codan et al even if it is illegal to use them, in most situations, for that purpose?

Last word, probably, to you Jim? :)

Mike Harding

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Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:16

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:16
You see Mike, there you go again. You didn't refute anything I said, merely expanded your own post.

"a number of responses... as you usually do "..."Last word, probably, to you Jim? :) and of course this isn't "disingenuous" or "rather nasty ' ?

It was you who encouraged people to get an amatur license and "do" 737 frequencies illegally. My post was about satphone services, perhaps you've forgotten?

Yes I agree that many amateur radios can operate in a limited fashion on illegal frequencies. But that doesn't mean that I would sanction their use in a non emergency situation.
To call commercial HF tranceivers overpriced is a statement which rather puzzles me. I had thought that you understood the differences.
Amateur sets are built to a price, not a standard.
Certainly if you wanted to play radios, commercial land mobile sets are overkill in some departments and lack a lot of very nice bits that are common in amateur equipment.

But if you're expecting your amateur set to do what commercial sets do on commercial frequencies with ease, and to do it under Australian outback conditions, and to keep on doing it time after time........the word dreaming comes to mind :)

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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:30

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:30
Yawn
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:33

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:33
Last word
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Follow Up By: Troop-a-dour - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 09:01

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 09:01
Good Morning Mike
I think you would be surprised to know of the number of AR ops. are also VKS737 members. I agree AR has it's place in remote area comms. -- but if the bleep hit the fan I would be far more comfortable knowing the security with the VKS network.

Scenario 1: OK, so you have an issue on the CSR, put out a CQ call on 20m, and a ham in Transylvania comes back to you. I really don't think there would be much he could do.
Scenario 2: Same issue. You selcall 1 or two VKS bases (available 24/7)- the operator has a fair idea where you are, and has at his fingertips all the contacts and details to get assistance for you.

As for the cost of VKS (and similar networks)- my 'hardware' cost me about $500 and membership is about $60. And for those who do a 3 week trip per year- there are outlets to hire a setup to save a capital outlay.
Like you, I do encourage friends to at least go for the Foundation AR license, but not necessarily for 'outback' communications. I also encourage my traveller friends to become members of VKS737 (or the like).

In summary, in my opinion, AR is not a substitute for VKS737 and vice- versa. Rather an addition to.
By the way Mike, I would be more than happy to forward you a membership form for the VKS737 HF Radio network !!
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Reply By: Glenn (VIC) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:20

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:20
Interesting that this is what is said on this web site:

"path diversity - minimal drop outs due to each call signal continuously scanning the other Globalstar satellites to maintain the best satellie connection as location changes. It only needs to connect to one satellite to connect your call."

and

"Have you addressed all safety issues of exploring Australia's outback? With Globalstar Australia's dual mode CDMA & satellite, voice & data enabled mobile phone, you can stay in touch with loved ones & business partners from even the most remote areas in Australia. As Globalstar provides coverage of the entire Australian landmass, being out of range in our great outback is no issue for Globalstar users. "

Quite misleading I would think. Maybe as I have the GSM/Sat phone, I do not get the same "great" coverage as a CDMA/Sat phone...lol

Cheers

Glenn
AnswerID: 195561

Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 21:01

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 21:01
But the problem is that the Sats are aging and two have been put into parking Orbits so there aren't enough Sats to always have one Sat available.
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 23:46

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 23:46
was told today that three are parked ...
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Reply By: Member - Jeff H (QLD) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:40

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:40
Mike, Footloose,
. I'm not too swift, but I reckon you guys (not blokes), could have a more private love-in if you really set your minds to it.
. We have Iridium, and have been very pis.sed off with sensitivity on occassion.
. One thing (1 among many----), that I ponder is the time lag with Iridium: why does it fluctuate so?
. ps. Thanks to the fellers on the forum who indicated that a standard Sim card can be used in lieu of the Plan.
. pps. Have enjoyed many posts by both you blokes, and probly wouldn't kick up too much if you camped close by.(So long as you whisper while you,re sticking the knives in).
Thanks eh, enough.
AnswerID: 195583

Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:45

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:45
Sorry Jeff. I should know better by now :))
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Reply By: Member - Ian S (NT) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 22:17

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 22:17
Hi Jim,

Just finished working in the bar!!

I saw a similar post sometime back but didn't join in - but was curious as to whether you meant Globalstar Sat/CDMA or SAT/GSM (or both). I have owned both and consider the CDMA / SAT combined in a league apart to the earlier SAT/GSM.

We hire out SAT/CDMA Qualcomm phones from Mt Dare and Birdsville every week and I demonstrate how to use them. I have only ever found it couldn't acquire a connection after minutes only once. I use my own through a car kit and have had drop outs whilst in the desert region many times. Compared to the Erricksson 290 GSM where the acquistion time could fade into no connection and dropouts were habitual. A serious phone call from the Anne Beadell toke 7 connections and $21 to complete. I was standing on the roofrack praying to the sky without help.. By comparison the Qualcomm 1600 is a breese.

I need to understand the problem??
Cheers to you Jim, that Mike does get up your nose.

Regards
Ian @ Mt Dare
AnswerID: 195592

Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 22:35

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 22:35
Hi Ian. Hope you managed to slake your own thirst as well as any vizzies :) I can remember one country pub where the rule that night was one for me and two for the barmaid ! True. Maybe she was leaving the next day, I left well before :))
I was referring to the Globalstar SAT/GSM service, and the problems I had with it. Apparently it is a well known problem, especially with the R290 phones. Not sure if it is the actual phone or the service. You might just be in one of the "sweet spots" of their service ? I had problems from Coopers Creek all the way to the WA coast. Judging from other posts it seems that I'm not the only one.
Your experience are interestingly positive, and it amazes me. Regardless, they do say all of Australia, not just your neck of the woods :))
Cheers
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Follow Up By: Member - Ian S (NT) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 22:54

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 22:54
Jim,

had dreadful problems on the Canning with R290 and not acquiring a sat signal. Yes I believe the problem is Australia wide on the GSM/SAT but the opposite on the CDMA/SAT.

Hope that clarifies.
Chhers
Ian @ Mt Dare
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 23:00

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 23:00
Ian, thanks mate. It seems that it may be the R290 phone thats the culprit? I wonder, as the kinds of problems I had included some very non phone specific ones.
Still, thats an interesting experience. Thanks.
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Follow Up By: Member - John (Vic) - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 03:39

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 03:39
The phone that I had recent experience with was a Qualcom CDMA/Sat (Don't know the model No) it is only 2 months old having been purchased by my 4wd club for use by its members.
This was the second trip it had done and it was bloody awful.
The guys who used it pulled it out and turned it on and waited for a Sat whilst I had made 3 phone calls and packed the phone away before they even came close to getting a Sat lock on.
And even then when they moved around as in walked 20 feet it dropped out.

My personal phone is a Motorola 9505 on the Iridium system and it picks up Sat's within seconds and holds the signal constantly, I have had virtually zero drop outs in the 2 plus years I have had this phone.
It has been used everywhere from Tassie, Vic High Country, WA Pilbra regions, the SW WA area.
I had the 9500 series for over a year before that and it is now owned by another forumite who posted to this thread.
That phone was also excellent when I had it as it still appears to be now.
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Follow Up By: Member - Andrew W (SA) - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 23:49

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 23:49
when using the Satellite, it should make no difference whether it is a GSM or CDMA enabled handset.

It is using neither of these to talk to the Satellite, and if one works they all should.
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Follow Up By: Member - Ian S (NT) - Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 00:11

Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 00:11
Andrew,

I might be wrong but I believe Globalstar services each use different satellite system for Sat side of Globalstar and Telstra Iridium is a different set again of LEOS.

Cheers

Ian @ Mt Dare
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 00:46

Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 00:46
Ian - see Reply 13 below.
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Reply By: Member - Ian S (NT) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 22:44

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 22:44
Hi Jim,

GSM vs CDMA is no comparison. I wouldn't go back to GSM unless I was able to connect to G3 when CDMA eventually dies. IMHO 2 differnet services!!
Just needed to know.
Cheers mate
Ian
AnswerID: 195598

Reply By: Willem - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 23:07

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 23:07
All this technology Footy...WOW...lol

I bought a USED Satphone Motorola 9500 about three years ago. I joined up with Telstra and Iridium. I have used the phone extensively in the deserts and whilst overseas and have had one or two drop outs in that time. Once or twice it took a while longer to Search for a Satellite connection but on the whole I have had no problems.

The only drawback with my phone has been the resonance of voices as I can hear myself echo back to me when I have spoken but I have learned to live with that.

I pay $30 per month for access and in that there is a $10 phonecall if I wish to call someone.

I am just lucky, eh?

Cheers
AnswerID: 195604

Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 23:20

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 23:20
Willem, I suspect that you bought the right phone. Either that or you should buy a Lotto ticket :)))
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Reply By: Member - Phantom (WA) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 23:14

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 23:14
I am surprised that after all the back biting and rude innuendos that no one has been positive about the good old sat phone.
I have been with the mentioned provider for over 4 years. Have travelled all over WA and all over NT and never once had any trouble with reception. The people are great to deal with and the service is fine. I don't use the sat phone 20 times a day like this post read for others, but for peace of mind and emergencies. I have had call to use it twice for such events and both times it fulfilled its obligations.
I love my GSM/ Sat phone.
PS: I also have a car kit which probably enables better reception.
Whats everyones problem?
AnswerID: 195608

Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 23:25

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 23:25
I would have loved to say something positive. But my experiences are the opposite, as (evidenced by the posts here) are a few others.
A few questions if I may ?
How recently have you used your satphone in those areas ?
What handset is it ?
WA...coastal or deserts, Pilbera or ??
NT ...areas ?
No, I'm not being a smart rear end. I'm quite interested in the experiences of others.
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Follow Up By: Member - Phantom (WA) - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 09:01

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 09:01
Footloose,
My phone is a Telit GSM/Sat. It was the only one at the time that you could get a car kit for. Our most recent trip was to the Pilbara/Karajini and then down the coast to Perth in June/July this year. Previously, we have gone from Perth across the centre to Alice Springs, up the middle to Darwin, and then across the Gibb and back down the coast to Perth. I also lent it to a friend who took it to Karajini just before we did and I spoke to him most nights due to an illness in the family.
As you may have seen from previous posts or my rig file, I also have a Codan HF and a CDMA.
Steve
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 00:00

Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 00:00
Thanks Phantom. So why do you think a few of us had such poor experiences with that provider ? No external aerials (I had a 360 degree clear view..."no service"...tried about 10 times at night...next morning we had service..but the calls dropped out within 10 seconds). Maybe we all had inferior handsets? The R290 ?
I would love to say hey we all need to buy X handset if we are to use that supplier. However as they admit to current coverage difficulties I dont see that as the whole story...maybe :))
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Reply By: Member - Barry (NT) - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 23:51

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 23:51
Agree with comments that Qualcom leaves the R290 for dead as Ian and others said.
I've use qualcom from Darwin, Arnhemland. Groote, Timber Ck area and Central Aust no problems but I know others with older sets and some in car older installations had problems.

Barry
AnswerID: 195611

Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 21:13

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 21:13
On Globlstar and Iridium you only need one satellite visible to make a call.

The difference is that Globlstar has 46 satellites at an altitude of 1400km and Iridium has 66 satellites at an altitude of 700km. Considering you are transmitting less than one watt ( a headlight puts out 50 watts) from a tiny aerial, it really helps to have the satellite half as far away.

The other difference is that for Globlstar the satellite needs to simultaneously be in view of the Mobile AND an Australian groundstation.

For Iridium, the satellites are interlinked, so once you are in to any satellite, the signal is relayed back to the only civilian groundstation in Tempe USA. There is NO half-second delay (like we used to have 15 years ago on International calls) because these satellites are much closer to earth than the geosynchronous satellites which were used for international phone calls before undersea fibre.
AnswerID: 195801

Reply By: Member - Barry (NT) - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 22:53

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 22:53
Hi all

You may wish to read this web info for comparison and factual info that explains some of the issues, and coupled with "some" of the practical experience above you should be able to sort the wheat from the chaff (and that's not Friday joke on Thurs either)

www.everythingsatellite.com.au/index.html

Barry
AnswerID: 195824

Follow Up By: Footloose - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 23:40

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 23:40
Barry, an interesting page. But obviously, given the posts above, not one that accurately reflects the current true capabilities of Globalstar, especially when using an R290 ?
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Follow Up By: Member - Barry (NT) - Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 22:59

Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 22:59
Yep too true Footy that's from my experience too - see earlier post. Cheers Baz
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