Battery systems explained

Submitted: Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:51
ThreadID: 37884 Views:5167 Replies:9 FollowUps:13
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Been looking for info on alternator wiring, came across this site which has detailed but simple explanations and drawings of 12v electrical systems. Writer lives on a river/canal boat. Kept me reading for a long while, specially the Technical area.
Ian
www.smartgauge.co.uk/index.html
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Reply By: Mike Harding - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:56

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 19:56
I'm not speaking for the whole site but I read a few pages of this guy's writing a couple of days ago and he certainly seens to know what he's talking about.

Good link IanW

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Footloose - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:35

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:35
Yawn
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Reply By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:47

Wednesday, Sep 20, 2006 at 21:47
I agree.

Yawn !

Time to defrost this guy and get up to speed.

His idea's are as old as his boat..



Regards Derek.
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Reply By: PhilZD30Patrol - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 09:12

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 09:12
Hi Ianw

Thanks for the info about the smartgauge.co.uk site.

Heaps of good practical information that is simply explained.

The "What is Galvanic Erosion, is it serious and can it be prevented?" article looks interesting and will read when I get a chance.

On the topic of 12 volt electrics, I have often wondered if there is a possibility of corrosion in a car's steel work resulting from a low level current leak through the vehicle body between dual batteries.

I seem to recall a rumour that the "rust bucket" problems in early model Holdens was identified as a result of the mix of high humidity, salt air and +ve to earth set up of the electrics. This was eventually resolved by switching to a -ve to earth system in later models. I might be wrong as I was only a kid in 1956.

I do know that very strange things can happen because of a mix of DC voltages and different sources of energy flowing through mixed metals. Can this happen in my 2001 Patrol?

Keep up the good work
regards
Phil
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Follow Up By: Robin - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 10:51

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 10:51
Hi Phil

Certainly strange things can happen , but I wouldn't worry about it in your patrol as in that car the body is considered as a universal earth or ground point and stray
earth voltages are meant to be non existant. (not that I like that arrangement)

Robin Miller
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Reply By: Robin - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 10:47

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 10:47
Some interesting reading for sure.
But I think he is pushing a few points and I don't think I'd wire up your alternator direct with 50mm cable to aux batt as per his page.

www.smartgauge.co.uk/alt_how.html

Robin Miller
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Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 16:32

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 16:32
Good. Another 10 years or so, and people might stop confidently stating this rumour.

"Relay based split charge systems do NOT cause a dangerous initial current surge. There is a rumour that a fully charged battery, connected via a split charge relay to a very flat battery can cause a very high current surge from the fully charged battery into the flat battery which is not only dangerous but also flattens the fully charged battery. It is a rumour, and that is all it is."
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Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 16:34

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 16:34
. . and another myth busted.

"Everyone "knows" that external Alternator Controllers are required in order to properly recharge deep cycle batteries. That was perhaps true 10 to 15 years ago. It simply isn't always the case anymore. Unfortunately conventional wisdom says they are still needed in every case, when in reality they are not. "
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Reply By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 17:30

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 17:30
. . . . and this one

"There exists a certain folklore that "batteries need to be worked". It is total rubbish. The more a battery is used the shorter it's life will be. The less it is used, the longer it's life will be. "
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 18:03

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 18:03
Sorry Mike, I lost the plot a bit there... are you for him or against him? :)
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 18:43

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 18:43
I haven't found anything on the website that I disagree with !
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Follow Up By: Mike Harding - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 19:05

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 19:05
Good.

I mainly read him with regard to the section on Peukerts thingie (good read) following the recent thread on here but only glanced over his other stuff. However he seemed to me to have a decent understanding of electronic/electrical theory and an ability to present it in an understandable manner. Some of the comments, above, made me wonder if I needed to read much more of the site as they seemed to suggest he didn't know what he was talking about...?

Mike Harding
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 19:58

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 19:58
Here are his comments on how Peukerts Law impacts on drawing 30 amps from a 400 amphour battery or having two parallel 200 amp-hour batteries and drawing 15 amps from EACH. The same point I was trying to make to gmd.

"Assume a single battery bank of 400 amp hours. With an average load on it of 30 amps. Let's say Peukert's exponent for these batteries is 1.3, the typical figure for deep cycle wet cells.
This gives a total run time, to 50% state of charge, of just under 6 hours (use the Peukert Calculator).
Now split this battery bank into two banks of 200 amp hours each. With a load of 15 amps on each battery bank.
Again use the Peukert calculator, you will see that the available run time for a 200 amp hour battery bank, at 15 amps discharge is exactly the same as 30 amps from a 400 amp hour battery bank. So the total available run time remains identical."

So there is NO DISADVANTAGE to using two parallel batteries instead of one battery (of the same TOTAL size).
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Follow Up By: Ianw - Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 21:39

Thursday, Sep 21, 2006 at 21:39
Sorry Mike, you are wrong. You should have kept reading the next few paras.

if we now split the battery bank into two 200 amp hour battery banks we find that 5 amps for a third of the time gives us 49 hours to flat, which is 24.5 hours to 50% state of charge, but again this is for a third of the time so 3 times this is 73.9 hours.

In the first example, calculated correctly using the actual current draw, as opposed to the average current draw we got 181 hours run time from the 400 amp hour battery bank.

In the second example, using the same calculation we got 74 hours run time, for the same equipment, from the 200 amp hour battery bank.

So if the battery bank was split in two, then each bank used for the fridge, and fridge alone, we would get a total run time of 148 hours. Whereas from the full 400 amp hour battery bank we would have got 181 hours.

And all intermittend loads will work the same way.

In effect, splitting the battery bank into smaller banks gives a smaller total available battery capacity and therefore a shorter run time.

All due to Peukert's effect. But the effect doesn't become apparent in calculations unless the actual current draw, calculated on a cyclic basis, is used for each item of equipment as opposed to the average current draw of all the loads combined.

Also consider that the very fact that the battery banks have been separated means that each battery bank will, in all probability, be discharged to a lower state of charge. This shortens the life of the batteries (see the 50% rule).

Ian
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 00:53

Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 00:53
No Ian, you need to read the follwing paragraphs more carefully. The following paragraphs describe a different discharge situation, where the two are discharged SEPARATELY, not in parallel.

What the massive previous posts are about is gmd suggesting that having two small batteries in PARALLEL (i.e. discharged simultaneously), is worse than having one big battery.
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Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 01:22

Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 01:22
well you obviously can not read properly either ..
never spoken about parallel .. I said serial ..
a serial connection of 2 smaller batteries will have smaller
resulting capacity than a parallel connection.. get you facts straight ..

I said it is generally more desirable from a technical perspective to have
a serial connection (longer battery life - less overcharging etc when batteries are slightly different - and they usually are) but serial connection has higher current on smaller batteries and as a result has lower total capacity even when the initial Ah is higher .. boy you put things upside down ... I suggest you go back a read again ..

and the so called myth further up about surge when empty and full batteries are connected ... well ever measured how a 1F capacitor loads aup on a subwoofer when you push in the fuse ? or seen the spark when you hook up a jumper cable ?
There is a surge .. if this is damaging to a solenoid or contacts or not is another matter ...
Mike if you quote me do it correctly ..
have fun
gmd
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 07:02

Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 07:02
"well ever measured how a 1F capacitor loads aup on a subwoofer when you push in the fuse "

- now you're starting to make the "two-buckets" look accurate.
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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 07:10

Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 07:10
Before you start quoting more irrelevant examples or incorrect theory which contradicts that statements of a clear expert who has published a detailed explanation, you might like to do a simple test.

I've actually tested this by connecting a fully charged new AGM 90 Ahr battery to a fully discharged (to 10 volts) wet-cell starting battery. The MAXIMUM current that flowed for a few SECONDS was 32 amps, but reduced to 7 amps after 1 minute.
- the total charge transferred from AGM to Wetcell was only 10.7 AHrs after being connected for 2 HOURS, this will not affect the AGM's starting ability !
- Sparking and voltage spikes occur when you connect disconnect and inductive load e.g. EVERY time you start the engine you have a 300 Amp current surge.
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Follow Up By: _gmd_pps - Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 22:50

Friday, Sep 22, 2006 at 22:50
well looks like you are that self tought hands on expert :)) .. rofl ..
never said charge between two batteries .. we were talking about isolation and connecting a battery bank to its charge source .. eg. Alternator and also in your example the higher efficient AGM is fully charged vs the lower efficient flooded cell is loaded .. flooded cells have much higher resistance and it is quite normal that you do not see more than 30 or so amps with 2.x V difference .. not looking at the inrush when switching the contacts ..
what you are saying is that we do not have contact wear on relais and we do not need fuses because charge current is never too high .... you'r really an expert ..
roflmao ...
An AGM has a much higher efficiency and lower resistance than a flooded cell and when you look at a real bank and not a toy (90Ah is a toy) with a voltage difference of 4V or so with a hot wired external regulated efficient alternator you can heat your cold fingers quickly with the charge cable .. Especially in marine environments where decent charging systems are more common than automotive the subject of charge current control and battery isolation and combination is far more sophisticated ... just finalised the design for my boat where I have a gyro running with a power consumption of peak 350 W meaning 30A continuous and a battery bank supporting up to ten hours use. When the engine runs at 3500 rpms (cruising speed) the Balmar 622-160-S6 creates around 140A when required and with a 440Ah battery bank (very low resistance) switching peaks are expected above 100A with bulk current up to 120A or so .. at top speed around 4800rpm the Alternator creates 160A .. your Fullriver Agm probably won't take that current but a good AGM like the Concord (two different labels depending on warranty) or the Discover will ... I can forward you the email from Concord where I asked that question directly to the manufacturer since in Australia you can not get the information on max charge current and efficiency on the batteries I was interested in ...
the combiner I use (not an isolator) is required to have a certain length of cable attached (at a certain thickness and not thicker) in order to protect the combiner and its contacts from too high current .... this system was designed together with a person fit in solar/battery applications (for the record I am an electronic engineer myself). I intend to use the same alternator in my truck (it happens to be the same mount as the mercruiser .. what a coincidence .. not) ...
Now it is a matter of how you wire a system .. you can prioritise a house battery or a cranking battery .. on a boat my approach is the house battery: Reson: after the engine starts your usually still run in lower revs lower alternator power and easy to switch to the house bank which usually needs more charge .. with a low power alternator that can be a problem but with a good alternator you have already a decent current at idle .. so you can link the house bank with lower currents .. when the house bank is charged to connect the starter bank (or manual override) for a quick top up .. in the automotive applidation this might be different but again depends on which components to use .. all such concepts are very common and approved and exist because high charge current exists and need consideration when dealt with.
Your world seems to be a very limited world of low level automotive applications with a few hands on experiences ... a bit like grannie annie cooking in the school cantine calling herself a gourmet chef ...
But I will leave you in peace in the future and let you believe in your hands on approach.

Have fun
gmd

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Follow Up By: Member - Mike DID - Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 at 14:45

Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 at 14:45
"what you are saying is that we do not have contact wear on relais and we do not need fuses because charge current is never too high"

- no wonder we're having trouble communicating. You read things I haven't even written !
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Reply By: Gramps (NSW) - Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 at 11:33

Saturday, Sep 23, 2006 at 11:33
hahahaha you guys !!! It's like asking six economists re the state of the economy and you get at least seven opinions :))))))

No wonder we non-sparkies get confused LOL
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Reply By: Derek from Affordable Batteries & Radiators - Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 at 21:25

Sunday, Sep 24, 2006 at 21:25
I have been away on holidays.

Just as well.

House boats in the UK ?

:-)
AnswerID: 196302

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