From 4wd Victoria

Yea, I hate politics BIG TIME...
but I can see it being the only option in the end.

Some of the policies that other lot have
- Banning Animal shows (Dog shows etc!)- What has that go to do with them?

Yeah good thinking Ross let the Greens gain the balance of power and we won't have to worry about the destruction of any of our public land or animals as you won't be able to 4wd anywhere, shoot, fish, ride your house, graze your cattle, turn on your telly, drive your car, stick your dog in a dog show, log the forests, conduct mineral exploration, build new dams, cut timber for your camp fire etc etc etc

I suggest you have a real good read of the policies outlined by the greens and then think about the impact on our various recreational activities and way of life in general.

I also think that your comment "I don't want to be represented by gun nuts" is a misrepresentation of the people and organisations involved.

P.S. I'm not a gun owner either but have no issue with responsible gun ownership and the right of everyday Australians to legally participate in their chosen sport or hobby.

Sorry should have been "Ride your horse"

Ross
I, and I'm sure all other licenced and responsible firearm owners, find your comment "I dont want to be represented by gun nuts" offensive. Your attitude towards the ownership of guns is no better than that of Harold Scruby and his ridiculous tirade against 4WDs.

John,untwist your testicles and calm down.
Its not about turning the telly on or grazing your cattle or any of the other alarmist red herrings you threw in.

I dont see a valid argument for allowing shooting on public land. Just how long will it take before someone gets shot?
I never said anything about banning shooting on private land or changing the current laws and I am not against responsible shooters.

If scent trailing hounds means packs of dogs being used to hunt and rip another animal to pieces,I cannot support that either even less so if its on public land.

We already have areas set aside for trail bikes in my state so that is irrelevant to me.
However it does need some serious supervision. Hundreds of kids licensed or not on trail bkes in the same area is not the family oriented activity REG make it out to be.
Its damn scary

Gun nuts are infiltrating some smaller parties,as they made such asses of themseves in previous elections they will rub shoulders with normal people to gain a veneer of respectabilty.

If the Greens do well its because they got their message across or because parties like REG scare the voters into the arms of the Greens
I didnt vote for shorty Howard but as we live in a democratic society I have to go along with it.

Well Moose when did I say anything about licensed resposible gun owners or taking their rights away??
As stated previously I have no objection to shooting on private land in accordance with current laws.
I also have family members and friends who shoot and own lic guns and have somtimes gone along with them.

I am against those who seem to live and breathe firearms and the sense of power they achieve from owning them.

No twisted testicles here my friend.

Just a realist who has seen first hand the underlying objectives of the Greens and how diametrically opposed to the real world they are.

Maybe its you who should consider taking a real view of the world and realise that the vast majority of people who shoot, go 4wding etc etc are seriously responsible people who respect that they need to share the world we live in with others.

You should consider that public land means areas such as state forest where people have been shooting and participating safely in their chosen sport or hobby since this country was settled.

Lets also consider the influence the Greens have had to date in respect of things like controlled burn offs and the results we have seen to areas like the high country when its not done.

You may belittle my comments about turning on the telly or grazing cattle and thats your prerogative but I for one like to have some ability to enjoy the things that life currently offers, but consider that if the extreme views of some of the Green fraternity were to prevail then you may be the first to say how did this happen? Why can't I sit by the camp fire?

I would further suggest that you come to understand what REG is trying to do and its not to win seats so much as influence the issue of preferences away from the Greens so that they ultimately they DON'T win enough seats to control the balance of power.

Ross..

Sorry dude, I thnk you have NFI about what your talkin about.

Possibly your one of the "spys" from the otherside....

Ross

You seem to have stirred the pot a bit here.

There are responsible gun owners out there. There are also a few "Gun nuts" who shouldn't be allowed within 100 kms of a gun.

The same goes for drivers of 4WD vehicles. Most do the right thing. Unfortunately there are the few that don't.

Unfortunately people stereotype and the few idiots give the rest of us a negative image.

As Blaze says "The only true wilderness is between a greenies ears"

Your making the greens out to be the new reds under the bed or the yellow hordes from the north LOL
I dont even vote for the greens and are not aligned with them any way but like most people of your ilk you only see black and white and because I dont support your REG you automatically THINK Im on the other side.

I never said the majorty of shooters or 4wd owners are not responsible.
I must have repeated it 3 or 4 times now ,I have no problems with responsible lic shooters.

You belittled yourself with silly remarks about the greens stopping you from watching tv or grazing your cattle,not me.

Truckster if you dont know what Im taliking that is no surprise and a complement at the same timeLOL

Kumunara,thankyou for largely agreeing with me;)

Do you guys want some quotes from the looney Greens? I thought not so just look at what they want, like contraceptives to control wild dogs and foxes. Don't worry about the danger that the current dogs are posing, or the native animals they are killing off.

Roadside weeds to harvest for bio-diesel - oh yes, you need an oil content for that. There are a really silly policies too in the social equation, like needle provision in prisons, don't worry about trying to control access to drugs.

Bruce, I am with you mate, they are further left than the loony left, and further loony than the funny farm.

Ross, you mentioned in your post the following remarks:

"Im all for defined 4wd trails but I dont want to see vehicles be allowed to go any where the owners please."

"Lets face it ,there are people out there who believe it is their god given right to shoot at or drive on anything and any where they wish".

Have you ever contemplated where we all be if Bourke and Wills, Stuart and Sturt hadn't packed up and gone where they liked.

I don't believe i have the right to drive over private property anywhere I like, but please spare me the lectures about tracks etc. How many tracks have been closed already in OUR National Parks. How can we enjoy the bush as you say if it is shut off to us. At some point I believe we all have to take a stand and make some noise, like all the do gooder minority groups.

I dont think its burke and wills have anything to do wth this debate.
Your talking a differnt era and a different set of rules entirely.

My comment about defined 4wd trails is exactly what it is.
Some way of coming up with trails that are mapped for all to see preferably at a national level.
I dont agree with new tracks being opened up in pristine areas,is that such a tough thing.
Yes I would like to see som old tracks reopened
I want tracks to be available to all members of the 4wd fraternity but as Ive said in other posts,the gun lobby should go push their own barrow because if the public think we are all together then 4wd owners will lose out.
The majority of 4wd owners do not own a gun and when you link guns and 4wds on public land the voters will switch off in droves.THINK ABOUT IT

Owners of 4wds should promote themselves as having an interst in nature,not blasting it with bullets

There are gun owners out there who are irrsponsible. Have you ever come across roo carcases in the bush,shot just for the pleasure of killing something,have you ever noticed nearly every sign outside the towns in oz are shot up?
I worked as a butcher and slaughterman for many years.
At least once or twice a month I would see animals with bulletts or pelletts inside them.
Often the shotgun pellets would be close together indicating cows were shot from close range.
How could anyone confuse cattle with vermin?
I realise that most shooters would not condone this especailly farmers ,but someone did it.

I have never recommended not taking a stand ,in fact I whole heartedly agree something should be done.
But I wont listen to crap from people who tell me the Greens are about to ban bird watching ,photography and fishing and we should all join organisations like REG as its the only way to stop them.

Use some political maturity and think for yourself
Labelling anyone who opposes you a "dogooder minority group" doesnt help your own cause .After all we are a minority group ourselves

ross, it is a pity you have distracted the whole argument talking about gun nuts right in your first comment. I don't think the Victorian 4WD community really is representative of any gun nuts, indeed thet have been representing a majority of views that have brought about discussions where the Liberals say they want to maintain access to tracks, and even make sure of fire access tracks to ensure an ability to fight the fires.

The Green attitude has been 'Lock it up, let it burn' and not worry about access to fight or control fire. Their attitude to 4WD community has been to lock them out and that was the direction in the Wombat Forest until the 4by community attended the meeting they organised in numbers reflecting their interest. The Wombat was to be for walkers only, begrudging horse riders. So much of our coast now is accessible only for walkers, not for the unsure of foot.

I have a friend who had enjoyed taking his 92 year old mother to see some spots that are no longer accessible to cars, so what hope has he got? He is a polly of a different persuasion so his interest is alligned with ours in going the 4by way. That isn't nanny Bracks, nor the ideological greens. He isn't a 4WD driver though his business may have one.

It is truly unfortunate you have linked the gun owners with the 4by community as I know most of them avoid firearms.

If you think I have gone overboard at the Greens, perhaps you haven't looked at their policies, I have also got some of the press clippings of their statements. They are looney, FULL STOP. The do entertain when you start telling their stories though about fitting the contraceptives.

I have a family member ho deals a lot with animal welfare issues. Suggestions of trapping in cages to give long term contraceptive treatment beggars belief if they understood the implications. I think your tram is derailed ross

Mike I have only stated I do not wish to see shooting on public land for reasons of safety.
Show me a good arguement why someone should shoot on land that belongs to everyone.
After all once the animals have been shot off the land what is there to see?

I do not wish to see animals ripped apart by packs of dogs and see that labelled as "sport"
Is that what you support??

.I have yet to see mainstream conseravtion groups attack fishing,bird watching,photography or any of those activities.

Oh and your your paternalistic remark about aussies having a largely Walt disney view of the bush is stupid and ignorant.
Australian are much better informed than you think.

I DO have the luxury and the right of saying i want to go into the bush without guns on public land.
Im sure there are many that agree with me.

The key to keeping access to the bush is education not scare mongering about what the greenies think or might think.
I have no affiliation with green politics

I will say it again ,I do not wish to be represented by groups like REG because I dont agree with many of their policies.
Is that so hard to understand?

>Is that so hard to understand?

No it isn't Ross, I understand you perfectly but I don't think you understand the realities of country and bush life.

Nevertheless I shall actively support and assist your desire to continue to drive your 4WD into lots of places other people would have you banned from because, even though you won't support me Ross, I know our only chance is to stand united.

Go well Ross.

Mike Harding

Oh I see ,is this your little group Mike?

Its intersting to note in their policies that they will not support
"minority factional interest groups"

Its also intersting to note they are supporting shooters and prospectors, activities both of which you are involved in but could hardly be called mainstream by any stretch of the imagination.
After all shooters would have to be less than 2% and prospectors a fraction of that in the total population

Oh god Im expecting Pauline to jump on the stage at any moment:rolleyes:

It is good to see you are not supporting "bad government"
You must have really had you thinking caps on that day
That will be real vote getterLOL

I had never heard of REG until about one hour ago when I first read this thread.

May I mention "objectivity" again Ross?

Mike Harding

Well one hour is plenty of time to make a decision on allegiances.LOL
Some might have at least attended a meeting , asked some questions and found out who was at the wheel

I have only stated I do not wish to see shooting on public land for reasons of safety,

Ross mate, I dear say if something like that was implemented it would be heavily regulated, into Particular times of the year along with the notification and closing off of the arias in which Hunting is taking place, along with the control of shooters in a aria and so and so on.

If you believe Illegal shooting doesn’t go on in public and crown land right now you are fooling yourself,At least this way you know there going to be there so you can plan to be somewhere else.

As a licensed firearm owner in WA where you are almost considered a criminal for owning a Firearm I do not believe you should be able to just whip out the rifle and go for a shoot in the closest National Park, but with some tight regulations as mentioned above I can’t see why legal shooting on Crown land in SELECTED ARIA’S should not be allowed.

One last thing, even if they do get into parliament the chance of any of there more controversial policies getting made law are slim to chit all, so I wouldn’t be to worried.

cheers.

Ross,
You've made your point, ad nauseum.
The answer is in your hands.

DON'T VOTE FOR THEM !!!!!!

Simple, aint it ?????

Disco

Well there is other reasons I wouldnt vote for them.
My 4wd needs are lower down the list of importance to oher things such as education, health and jobs which only the mainstream parties have any policies.

>Well there is other reasons I wouldnt vote for them

So all this arguing about firearms and the Greens was pointless? You were never going to support them for a host of other reasons? :)

You're a worry Ross - try and get out a little more, the internet is not good for you :)

Mike Harding

Exploder I am well aware illegal shooting on public land is common in WA
It kind of blows the theory that most shooters in WA are law abiding doesnt it?
It also leaves a bad taste in the voters mouth and is a good reason why 4wd owners should not closely align themselves with the gun lobby

Mike most people including me make their mind up on which way to vote based on a number of reasons and so should you.
Remember the black and white and the grey in between mike.

Anyone who votes purely on single issues is a worry and a pawn for politicians to play with

Guys, ross is the person who introdued the discussion of firearms to suit his own ends. No one else has persued them in their posts. I know for a fact that Truckster abhors them, and he has told me he has never fired one.

I with you on the issue Mike.

That is the point I have been making. We all have to compromise our requirements to some degree, I hate noisy bloody trail bikes, they really irritate me when I'm in some quiet remote spot in the forest and I hear their engines in the distance, even worse if they come close to! However I am going to have to support the right of riders to use them and to enter the same sorts of places I do because the only way we can get the numbers to make politicians concerned about us is if all the groups who use the bush stick together and support one-another.

On our own each group is too small and, from a politicians perspective, it's better to ban a couple of thousand 4WDs (votes spread across the state remember) and bring on board a stack of soft greenies and do a bit of horse trading with the Green party.

_Never_ underestimate the cynicism of politicians.

Mike Harding

Interesting

As Landy said ,just because someone opposes the Greens as a single policy group thats no reason to go off all cockeyed supporting them to the hilt.

And I think it totally ridiculous to lump all users into the same basket.
Bird watchers and photographers are just not up there with shooters and those who wish to use packs of dogs to run down animals just to tear to em to bits.

Trying to lump all interests together is an attempt by certain groups to gain some credibilty from other groups.

I have yet to see any mainstream conservation group attacking the rights of bird watchers yet its been stated 2 or 3 times in this debate that their rights are under attack.
Where from???

IMO the 4WD owners will do much better without the gun lobby riding in the back of our 4wds.
The overwhelming majorty of 4wds ARE NOT used for shooting purposes

Ross..
have you taken your medicxcation today?

All you keep saying is dribble like
'shooters and those who wish to use packs of dogs to run down animals just to tear to em to bits. or as sport'

Have you ever been out with shooters? Didnt think so.

You really have no idea do you?

Ross,
You then go on to say you have "yet to see any mainstream group attacking the rights...etc"
While arguing that point you don't acknowledge that 'certain groups' in the green extreme gain credibility from the mainstream. Hypocrisy.

You are the only person to introduce guns into the disussion ross. Nobody else. Like Mike Harding, I have had a licence for yonks but do I take it to anywhere else to go shooting? Never. Ross, you are to only person associating this discussion to the gun lobby. Ross, as Bruce says, go take your medication and pink pills.

JohnR
Yes I think youve said that twice but I mentioned them after a link was provided to REG which is a group thats supports shooters rights.
As I said before 4wd owners would be better off running their own campaign as the general public will only see them as being part of the gun lobby.
The gun lobby have run disastrous campaigns at the last few elections.
Now they are looking around for more credible groups to rub shoulders with.

I am not anti gun but I think its ridiculous to suggest that gun owners are in the same boat as 4wd owners.

Truckster
you have out done your self. You have gone more that 4 lines of text without a single HAHAHAHAHAHAHA to make up for lack of content.
Your posts are always simplistic and sarcastic.

As mentioned at least 2 of my previous posts I have been shooting a couple of times ,actually more than couple.

No need to duck for cover LOL.

Consider how many Victorians undertake some form of recreational activity such as fishing, shooting, trail bikes, etc etc then point out to these same people the consequences of a vote for the Greens and what it may do to their chosen hobby.

Then you will see the potential numbers involved, and thats the point.
If the mainstream parties suddenly see that 80 plus percent of Victorians wish to continue to undertake some form of outdoor recreation and those same 80 plus percent vote then they will have to consider the issues presented.

I couldn't have put it better myself :)

Yes its a terrible terrible curse having to put up with others who want to have a say in this world too,just terrible.
Hardly worth logging onto the net if people are not going to be in agreeance 100% with everything you believe in;)

Ah Ross: do you want to bicker or do you just want to vote Green?

“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity”
Sigmund Freud

That's what the Big S said Ross - care to develop your credibility? 'cause he has a bit more than you....

Mike Harding

Go back and read my posts . I have said from the very beginnnig that I do not support the REG or the Greens.Like others of your ilk you can only distinguish the world in black and white,totally missing the point that most peoples views lie in the grey area between.
I will support a group that wishes to advance the interests of 4wds owners but as I stated previuosly I do not wish to do it with the gun lobby.

Im still waiting to be shown proof that mainstream conservationists want to ban bird watching ,photography and fishing.

When did I say I have a fear of weapons . I have already stated I am not against responsible lic owners shooting on pvt property and have fired the odd round or 2 myself.

Now if you cant understand that get someone else to read the posts to you slowly

Oh and mike ,not being able to look at things from multiple angles is a sure sign of retardation

ross, it's not a curse at all. "I reject your reality and substitute my own" Easy!

Mate, I simply smile and let the wowsers whine away to their hearts content.

As I've said before, the whole "do unto others" thing is a pretty good guide to life I reckon. (and BTW I'm not religious, I just think it's a good idea, that's all)

I doubt you and I will ever find consensus Ross but I hope you find what ever it is you seek without damaging others.

Go well Ross.

Mike Harding

Fantastic word "Twatt". conveys absolutely the right image in my mind. Well done!!

Ross,

You are still not getting it. All of these groups have the same LEGAL RIGHTS!!!!!

Whether you agree or not it is NOT ILLEGAL to do these things.

Yes you also have a right to your opinions and forums like this give opportunity for vigorous debate as they should. Don't then denigrate other people for expressing their views. You should stick to argueing your point as hard as you can which would also keep the debate on track.

This forum is set up for travellers, 4WD'ers and the like. You can't expect to enter debate here and then not accept the views.

It is like someone entering a Greens Forum and not being able to understand why they cant accept Nuclear Power etc.

If you have powerful arguments based on real facts and detail, use them.

So you agree with closing everything down totally - which is their plan...
Good thinking 99....

They are not a 1 issue party.. Nobody says they are, but their MAIN items are absolutely deadly for everyone.

See the other example above - banning animal shows is high on their agenda too... thats dangerous to environment...

Hi all, I guess with my signature I should say something.

Truckster, I just love the idea that a group of people can advocate saving the planet, then hop into a rubber dinghy (good stuff that rubber) go out into sydney harbour and through flour bombs in plastic bags at other countries navy ships, (great thing to be putting in the ocean that plastic) whilst also spewing 2stroke oil from their fossil fueled outboards. Seems all a bit hypocritical to me

Another one stuck in the black and white mentality ,but being you truckster ,that does not surprise me.
You always count the numbers and play follow the leader anyway.

Where in mfewster's post did he advocate closing everything down,in fact where did any of the mainstream conservation groups advocate closing everything down?

So far the Greens are going to ban bird watching,photography,fishing,boiling a billy and now truckster reckons everything will be banned and we are all gonna die LOL

Animal shows,who wants to see a big cat jump through hoops anyway after its been whipped into submission behind closed doors?
Much rather they be seen in the wild.

Please explain how the Greens policies are deadly for everyone truckster,I am dying to know or before I die?

It safer Ross... Dont wait, just go and do it instead.. save us all the bother

>> Animal shows,who wants to see a big cat jump through hoops anyway after its been whipped into submission behind closed doors?

HAHAHHAHAHAH.. and you say Im blind? Is it school holidays already?

Why should anyone be face censorship from you?
I have copped my share of insults but that passes as fair game but you dont see e burst into tears like the others.
As for you disco driver,you are a Johnny come lately who has contributed nothing to the debate except to tail end .

...and yourself ross... have contributed Oh so much...

You are so blind that you cant see that these parties are working together to take votes off a common enemy... not take control of the planet and RUN AROUND SHOOTING CUTE LITTLE CUDDLY WABBITS TEARING THEM APART....

Rotflmao!

>I have copped my share of insults

Actually Ross... you haven't.

I have just re-read every post to this thread and the only person to have been insulting to others is you.

Dont worry Gramps they will be there with the blue pills soon,thatll stop the screaming; )

I thought the "little blue pills" started the, ahem, "screaming" ;-)

I think you'll find that global warming was known about well before most of the Greens were even born.

The Greens are able to put _anything_ into their policy base because they know they will not obtain government so will not have to carry it out. And even if they obtain a "balance of power" they can still claim they were unable to do X or Y because they had to horse trade with the major party. It's a very comfortable position to be in: you can permanently claim the moral high ground in the full knowledge you'll never be put to the test.

Mike Harding

Agree. I should change the "most" in my post to "any" actually. Even before that 'fossil' Bob Brown hahahahaha. They do have a problem distancing themselves from some of the loonier fringe groups though.

It would help in following the thread if you could use the "Follow up" feature rather than "Post Reply" it means specific points are grouped together and easier to follow also your posts are e-mailed to previous posters in that sub-thread whereas "Post Reply" is not.